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Topic: Inception: The Entirely Spoiler-Filled Thread In Which We Discuss the Finer Points of the Film

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Kid_A

As the title states, this is a thread where we don't have to worry about ruining the movie for everybody (like that other Inception thread running about). So let's kick things off with a question. There one thing that struck me as somewhat illogical with this movie. In a dream, nothing is real. Everything is simply a figment of the subject's imagination. So how exactly was the team able to use the Dream-Sharing devices in one layer of the dream to plunge further into a lower level of the dream, if the machine for doing so isn't really...real?
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Edited on by theblackdragon

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SuperMarioFan96

Hmmm, maybe they're projecting that their dreaming within a dream? They're projecting that it works? I don't really know. I probably won't be able to properly discuss the movie coherently until I see it a second time, but until then, I'll try.

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Kid_A

Yeah. I also wasn't entirely clear on what exactly the architect is doing. Is she actually constructing the dreams, and they're putting the subject into her created dream worlds, or are they going into his dream, and then she's just distorting it?
My friend brought up an interesting point based on the question I asked above: he said that in dreams, everything behaves the way it would in real life. When people get shot in the dreams, it feels painful while they're in that dream state. A gun actually has the ability to shoot someone. So maybe, even though it's just a projection of the real thing, the Dream Sharing device works in the dream because, by Nolan's logic, it will work the way it does in the real world....jesus this is a deep movie.

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Odnetnin

That's a hard question. I suppose Ariadne designed the dream-sharing devices to appear in the dream, and since other objects function like they should in the dream world, that one does too. Or something.

So: did the top stop spinning, start to wobble, keep spinning, could have gone either way, etc.; what's the ending (I don't trust Wikipedia)?!

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but here are some apparent plot holes in the...plot:
Cobb and Mal grow old together in their dream world, but are young again while "waiting for a train."
Cobb isn't old after he washes up on a beach, but Saito is an old man when the two meet.
Eams can just randomly shape-shift, but only uses it once.
The gang rigorously interrogates and threatens Fisher and his godfather...but they know they don't know the combination to the safe.
Fisher Sr.'s vault is in a snowy fortress, and he's in a futuristic room somehow not dead and waiting to clarify his dying words to his son.
Saito like, almost dies, but for some reason doesn't.
Cobb drowns and doesn't escape the van because he's stuck in the dream but somehow survives.
Mal stabs Cobb, and then Ariadne shoots Mal, but at least Cobb is still alive.
The stakes are apparently very high when Cobb brings his lethal subconscious into the dream because everyone can turn into vegetables, but no one suffers this fate (though they die; at least Saito does) and everyone seems to forget this later.

Keep in mind I saw a very late showing and probably missed half the movie.

EDIT: Dang it Kid_A, I answered your question but didn't post it in time. I'm pretty sure the architect constructs the dream from the ground up (remember Cobb's first architect chooses the wrong carpet and that's how Saito realizes he's still dreaming?)

Edited on by Odnetnin

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SuperMarioFan96

Yeah, I think in a dream everything can still behave how it does in the real world even though it's not real. I'm also not entirely sure what the architect is doing. I think she constructs the dream world and then the dreamer is tossed into them, but I don't know for sure.

Any thoughts on the ending? I still can't decide, but I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

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SuperMarioFan96

Yeah, when I started typing your post wasn't made yet, Odnetnin. Also, possible answers to SOME of your questions:

Cobb and Mal grow old in Limbo because they think decades have past. But when they realise it's not reality, they become young again because they realise not as much time has passed.
Saito is an old man because he was in Limbo (the beach and such) longer than Cobb and even a few minutes in regular time becomes decades in Limbo.

Ummm, that's all I got.

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Odnetnin

Ah, that actually helps a lot. Thanks SMF. On a side note, do you agree with me that some of the above plot holes are really that? I wonder if there are answers to all of them. Too bad Nolan isn't here to answer me.
i wasn't trying to be mean when i said i had the same question; just stating i wonder that too.

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Kid_A

Odnetnin wrote:

That's a hard question. I suppose Ariadne designed the dream-sharing devices to appear in the dream, and since other objects function like they should in the dream world, that one does too. Or something.

So: did the top stop spinning, start to wobble, keep spinning, could have gone either way, etc.; what's the ending (I don't trust Wikipedia)?!

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but here are some apparent plot holes in the...plot:
Cobb and Mal grow old together in their dream world, but are young again while "waiting for a train."
You'll have to remind me of what the "waiting for the train thing" is. But remember that time moves exceedingly slower in the dream world than in the real world. And, of course, time moves slower the deeper you get into your subconcious. Also, they can percieve themselves however they want to. Some are just better at it than others.*
Cobb isn't old after he washes up on a beach, but Saito is an old man when the two meet.
This is a good question. I need to see it again
Eams can just randomly shape-shift, but only uses it once.
Well, it's because he only needs to use it once. In the first level of the dream (the kidnapping) he had to pretend to be the godfather. In the second level, Fisher has already percieved him. He doesn't change into him because he wants to see if Fisher's perception of the godfather is the same as the one they intend for him to percieve.
The gang rigorously interrogates and threatens Fisher and his godfather...but they know they don't know the combination to the safe.
This is because they're trying to make him uneasy. Scare him a little. Remember, It's just a big set-up for the third part of the dream where Fisher opens the safe to find his sick father. Also remember that Eams is playing the godfather at this point in the movie. He's trying to trick Fisher into believing that there is, in fact, a safe
Fisher Sr.'s vault is in a snowy fortress, and he's in a futuristic room somehow not dead and waiting to clarify his dying words to his son.
It's a dream--and dreams make perfect sense when you're in them. The whole point was for Fisher to think that it was in his best interest to leave his dad's company. So they had to change his perception of his father
Saito like, almost dies, but for some reason doesn't.
Every action movie ever. Bond. Bourne. They always almost die like fifty times, but they don't, because without them we wouldn't have a movie
Cobb drowns and doesn't escape the van because he's stuck in the dream but somehow survives.
This is one I don't understand as well.
Mal stabs Cobb, and then Ariadne shoots Mal, but at least Cobb is still alive.
Once again. It's a movie.
The stakes are apparently very high when Cobb brings his lethal subconscious into the dream because everyone can turn into vegetables, but no one suffers this fate (though they die; at least Saito does) and everyone seems to forget this later.
They don't forget, do they? They just don't really touch upon it much.

Keep in mind I saw a very late showing and probably missed half the movie.

EDIT: Dang it Kid_A, I answered your question but didn't post it in time. I'm pretty sure the architect constructs the dream from the ground up (remember Cobb's first architect chooses the wrong carpet and that's how Saito realizes he's still dreaming?)

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Kid_A

As for the ending: there's no clear cut answer. It's intended to be open to interpretation (much like dreams are). To be honest, there's so much that I don't have straight in my head that I think I need to see it again before I even form an opinion.

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SuperMarioFan96

Alright, I might have a few more ideas. When Saito "dies," he's sent into Limbo. The problem with Limbo (I think) isn't that you can't get out, so much as that you think it's reality. When Saito and Cobb met in Limbo, they suddenly remembered each other and remembered that where they were wasn't real. So Saito shot Cobb and then himself, so that they woke up. Unless, of course, they didn't wake up, and Cobb is still dreaming, but that's another discussion.
As for anything else you said, I can't really remember well enough. I'm off to bed for now (I live on the East Coast) and perhaps I'll be able to think more clearly in the morning. As I said earlier, I may have to see the movie again before I can really understand what happened. See you tomorrow!

EDIT: And you too Kid_A.

Edited on by SuperMarioFan96

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Odnetnin

Kid_A wrote:

Odnetnin wrote:

That's a hard question. I suppose Ariadne designed the dream-sharing devices to appear in the dream, and since other objects function like they should in the dream world, that one does too. Or something.

So: did the top stop spinning, start to wobble, keep spinning, could have gone either way, etc.; what's the ending (I don't trust Wikipedia)?!

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but here are some apparent plot holes in the...plot:
Cobb and Mal grow old together in their dream world, but are young again while "waiting for a train."
You'll have to remind me of what the "waiting for the train thing" is. But remember that time moves exceedingly slower in the dream world than in the real world. And, of course, time moves slower the deeper you get into your subconcious. Also, they can percieve themselves however they want to. Some are just better at it than others.*
the train thing is when cobb convinces mal to commit suicide by laying on train tracks because she has to wake up from the dream
Cobb isn't old after he washes up on a beach, but Saito is an old man when the two meet.
This is a good question. I need to see it again
Eams can just randomly shape-shift, but only uses it once.
Well, it's because he only needs to use it once. In the first level of the dream (the kidnapping) he had to pretend to be the godfather. In the second level, Fisher has already percieved him. He doesn't change into him because he wants to see if Fisher's perception of the godfather is the same as the one they intend for him to percieve.
ok i'm too tired to understand this, will try again in the morning. also, i didn't know he shifted into the godfather; just that he shifts into the pretty woman
The gang rigorously interrogates and threatens Fisher and his godfather...but they know they don't know the combination to the safe.
This is because they're trying to make him uneasy. Scare him a little. Remember, It's just a big set-up for the third part of the dream where Fisher opens the safe to find his sick father. Also remember that Eams is playing the godfather at this point in the movie. He's trying to trick Fisher into believing that there is, in fact, a safe
ok that makes sense
Fisher Sr.'s vault is in a snowy fortress, and he's in a futuristic room somehow not dead and waiting to clarify his dying words to his son.
It's a dream--and dreams make perfect sense when you're in them. The whole point was for Fisher to think that it was in his best interest to leave his dad's company. So they had to change his perception of his father
ditto my last comment
Saito like, almost dies, but for some reason doesn't.
Every action movie ever. Bond. Bourne. They always almost die like fifty times, but they don't, because without them we wouldn't have a movie
that's kinda sad
Cobb drowns and doesn't escape the van because he's stuck in the dream but somehow survives.
This is one I don't understand as well.
Mal stabs Cobb, and then Ariadne shoots Mal, but at least Cobb is still alive.
Once again. It's a movie.

The stakes are apparently very high when Cobb brings his lethal subconscious into the dream because everyone can turn into vegetables, but no one suffers this fate (though they die; at least Saito does) and everyone seems to forget this later.
They don't forget, do they? They just don't really touch upon it much.
ok well the stakes don't feel very high

Keep in mind I saw a very late showing and probably missed half the movie.

EDIT: Dang it Kid_A, I answered your question but didn't post it in time. I'm pretty sure the architect constructs the dream from the ground up (remember Cobb's first architect chooses the wrong carpet and that's how Saito realizes he's still dreaming?)

Thanks for answering.

EDIT: OK guys we'll talking the morning, ha.

Edited on by Odnetnin

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WanderingHypocrite

Odnetnin wrote:

Cobb and Mal grow old together in their dream world, but are young again while "waiting for a train."

They were shown young before Cobb admitted the truth. They were shown old again.

]Cobb isn't old after he washes up on a beach, but Saito is an old man when the two meet.

Saito went to limbo a long time before Cobb.

Eams can just randomly shape-shift, but only uses it once.

It wasn't random and his disguise only works for the dreamer.

The gang rigorously interrogates and threatens Fisher and his godfather...but they know they don't know the combination to the safe.

They created the safe after they got the numbers from Fisher.

Fisher Sr.'s vault is in a snowy fortress, and he's in a futuristic room somehow not dead and waiting to clarify his dying words to his son.

It is Fisher Jr's projection of his father.

Saito like, almost dies, but for some reason doesn't.

He went to limbo. Which is what would have happened for anyone because of the sedation.

Cobb drowns and doesn't escape the van because he's stuck in the dream but somehow survives.

The van and river/lake was also a part of a dream.

Mal stabs Cobb, and then Ariadne shoots Mal, but at least Cobb is still alive.

I am not sure what the problem is.

The stakes are apparently very high when Cobb brings his lethal subconscious into the dream because everyone can turn into vegetables, but no one suffers this fate (though they die; at least Saito does) and everyone seems to forget this later.

Mal is what Cobb brings into dreams. The vegetable thing is being trapped in limbo. And I believe the looking old thing was the effects on the brian of being in limbo which was forgotten.

Keep in mind I saw a very late showing and probably missed half the movie.

EDIT: Dang it Kid_A, I answered your question but didn't post it in time. I'm pretty sure the architect constructs the dream from the ground up (remember Cobb's first architect chooses the wrong carpet and that's how Saito realizes he's still dreaming?)

The architect creates a space for the target's sub conscience to fill. But for some reason they didn't originally want to bring her on the airplane. I don't think that makes sense.

WanderingHypocrite

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Klapaucius

From what I think/understand after watching the film once 2 nights ago (I'd love to see it again but doubt I can until DVD)...

Odnetnin wrote:

Cobb and Mal grow old together in their dream world, but are young again while "waiting for a train."
I think that they forgot it was a dream, but upon realising it was again they saw again their 'true' young selves. I've read that their hands are still old while their faces are young, but havn't checked for myself on the film (I deliberately read nothing about it before watching)
Cobb isn't old after he washes up on a beach, but Saito is an old man when the two meet.
Saito was in limbo for decades, while Cobb appeared just then
Eams can just randomly shape-shift, but only uses it once.
He only needed to use it a handful of times. I counted him using it three times in the film
The gang rigorously interrogates and threatens Fisher and his godfather...but they know they don't know the combination to the safe.
The only interrogate Fischer. The code he makes is random, but by reinforcing those numbers in the lower dream levels Fischer believes them to be significant, and thus those random number eventually become the code to the vault in the snow fortress
Fisher Sr.'s vault is in a snowy fortress, and he's in a futuristic room somehow not dead and waiting to clarify his dying words to his son.
Its not actually Fischer Sr and not actually in a snow fortress, its all just part of the dreamworld created by Ariadne. They need Fischer to hear his father's dying words clearly so he'll believe his father wanted him to break up the company
Saito like, almost dies, but for some reason doesn't.
Every time they go down another dream level, it weakens the effect of him being shot, but he's still shot so he'll get sicker in the dream. In the real world though he's not shot
Cobb drowns and doesn't escape the van because he's stuck in the dream but somehow survives.
He only drowns in the dreamworld, not in real life. Since he was dead in the 1st level, he automatically got kicked to waking up once he was free of limbo (assuming he ever escaped limbo )
Mal stabs Cobb, and then Ariadne shoots Mal, but at least Cobb is still alive.
Mal is not real. Cobb got only a wound, not enough to kill, I would guess. But even if he was killed, they say that dying in the dream sends you to limbo, and he does go there with Saito.
The stakes are apparently very high when Cobb brings his lethal subconscious into the dream because everyone can turn into vegetables, but no one suffers this fate (though they die; at least Saito does) and everyone seems to forget this later.
Or do they? Or will they? Do they wake up or not?

Keep in mind I saw a very late showing and probably missed half the movie.

Klapaucius

Klapaucius

WanderingHypocrite wrote:

The architect creates a space for the target's sub conscience to fill. But for some reason they didn't originally want to bring her on the airplane. I don't think that makes sense.

Ariadne designed the world, then she taught its design to Yusuf. We saw her making models and explaining them to him. I think the plan was for him to be the architect on the plane.

Klapaucius

Adam

My goodness, mark your spoilers, guys. Ruin the movie for me, why don't you.

Edited on by Adam

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SuperMarioFan96

THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS! YOU HEAR ME? SPOILERS!!!!!!! HAVE YOU SEEN THE MOVIE YET? NO? DON'T READ THIS THREAD YET THEN!!!!! BECAUSE IT HAS SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND!?!?!?!?! SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! S-P-O-I-L-E-R-S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Adam

Oh, I thought you said boilers.

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Noire

My theory about the movie is that there is no reality. That damn near the entire thing was a dream. There was a fifth level of it, what we all thought was 'reality'.

Cobb was the true architect of the entire dream, and we were the dreamer. That's why his projections could randomly show up at any time and no one else's, and it also explains to me why Cobb said he can't dream anymore. I've never heard of someone dreaming about having a dream.

Anyways, at this point I feel the true inception was Cobb trying to establish he was a good person - flawed, but still good. However, if I think this is all a dream created by Cobb... then who is the real Cobb? Maybe instead of watching Mal plummet to her death, he pushed her out of the window in a drunken rage... and now is becoming an old man, filled with regret, and waiting to die alone?

I'm not sure if this is the best explanation yet... and it's probably nonsense anyways. :3

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Kid_A

weirdadam wrote:

My goodness, mark your spoilers, guys. Ruin the movie for me, why don't you.

You did see the name of the thread right?

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