Back in early May the Nintendo NX rumour mill produced an interesting bit of chatter, with suggestions that the new system could utilise cartridges as media for its games, likely instead of discs. Like all rumours it was treated with a healthy dose of scepticism, but it wasn't entirely illogical - cartridge and memory card media is cheaper, smaller and has more storage than in the past (as seen with 3DS and Vita), and would suit hardware that potentially has both home and portable components.
Well, now there's extra fuel to the fire. Eagle-eyed NeoGAF user Atheerios noticed interesting wording in the US trademark filing for The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. In the goods and services category it lists 'video game cartridges' and 'video game memory cards':
Downloadable electronic game programs; downloadable electronic video game software; electronic game programs; electronic game software; video game cartridges; video game discs; video game memory cards; video game programs; video game software
This is interesting as, of course, it's a dual release on Wii U and NX. We checked multiple listings for Wii U games, and they only list discs and downloadable methods, while 3DS games naturally reference cartridges as a core category. As a note of caution some of these listings do try to cover bases for the future - in some cases 3DS games only list cartridge media and variations, while others (like for Ever Oasis and Monster Hunter Generations) also reference other media types.
With that cautionary note acknowledged, this is nevertheless an interesting spot. With Wii U and 3DS listings typically distinct in this area, the fact Breath of the Wild includes cartridges and memory cards does add an extra dynamic to the conversation over the distribution methods Nintendo will use with its NX hardware. With media such as cartridges and cards now supporting plenty of space and dropping in price, it's not an outlandish idea.
Let us know what you think below. Do you think it's feasible that we'll play the likes of Breath of the Wild off a small cartridge or card-based media on NX?
[source neogaf.com, via tmsearch.uspto.gov]
hmmmm i dont think it a bad idea and if its true cool.
If it's cart based then the NX is definitely a handheld/under the tv console hybrid
Yes! This is good speculation - give me more of this stuff.
Would be cool if true, however I am not fussed either way.
I want this on vinyl....
All but confirmed at this point.
I, for one, welcome our old flash media overlords.
So not Blu Ray then.
It was fun speculating about the Wii back in the day. It's not fun speculating about the NX. I guess that's the difference between speculating when you expect something awesome and speculating when you just expect to be disappointed ultimately.
@gcunit the hybrid thing is really getting to me... because if there IS a handheld version, what if its BC with the 3DS? I'm on the verge of getting a New 3DS as my old XL broke recently and getting used to the original 3DS again is hard. I just wish we'd get some official information...
Also how the heck would Breath of the Wild fit on a cartridge? Is that possible?
I still play my N64 with little to no loading so I'll be happy.
Cartridges/Micro SD cards can hold more than Blu-ray and have none of the scratching or loading, yes please!
Just to clarify - when I say 'hybrid' I don't necessarily mean one device. Could still be a home unit and portable unit, both of which play the same cartridges. kthxbi.
@Jolt - Just get one. Sell it on if you really don't want it when NX is out.
@MadAussieBloke That doesn't bother me at all.
Art style matters more than graphics, as well as frame rate.
Graphics should be the last thing people should look at. But I feel like the only one that thinks this anymore...
The hybrid thing has been debunked humorous times.
Anyway I'm for this. Faster load times, collectivity, cost saved on the console it's self. As for third party well people are buying more digital anyway. And they all won't be completely on board right away anyway.
If they are cartridges again then I'll go back to physical releases. My 360 and its two replacements all had the disc drive die. It's why I abandoned Microsoft consoles and discs in the first place.
@azelf I'm really hoping for a handheld that can also connect to a TV with a wireless controller.
@WebHead Quote: "The hybrid thing has been debunked humorous times"
Has it? By whom? What exactly do you mean by 'debunked'?
If it is cartridge, that means no backwards compatability,
This was one of the reasons it took so long for me to get a Wii U as it could not play Gamecube games.
@Bunkerneath I play GC games on Wii u all the time.
Would be cool to see cartridges again. Especially since that would mean no hour long installs!
@gcunit by iwata himself. Back in 2014 he said the next console ans handheld would be like brothers. And that it doesn't necessarily mean turning into 1 device during a shareholder meeting.
@Jolt It's absolutely possible to put the new Zelda game on flash media. Wii U optical discs theoretically hold up to 25GB of data. I'd say the most common capacity for SD(HC) cards right now is probably 32GB, especially for mobile devices. In fact, I have a 32GB SDHC card in my New 3DS XL (upgraded it from the 2GB card it came with, if I'm remembering right). And they only go up in capacity from there. The highest commercial capacity SD card I've seen lately goes up to 2TB. But knowing Nintendo, we'll probably only bump up from 25GB discs to 32GB flash. (And then we likely won't know the real numbers for a long time since Nintendo, like Sony with their handhelds, love creating their own proprietary media.)
@Jolt Well the Wii U discs hold 25GB. 3DS carts hold 8GB, and the tech has progressed a lot since then, so it's possible.
@Neon_Blues Framerate has a direct effect on gameplay. People don't just ask for a stable framerate for the sake of animation.
@WebHead Very weak argument, if you ask me. It can be interpreted as proof either for or against the hybrid theory.
@WebHead Stuff this Iwata 2014 quote in your pipe and debunk it:
"Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment."
I'm tired of games running (walking, I should say) on loud, slow, loud, fragile and slow optical disks.
Storing data with "holes and bumps" on a spinning object is a method we create several centuries ago. Even Da Vinci used it. That's how old it is.
Optical discs and even magnetic discs are being abandoned progressively everywhere. The console market is the only one lagging behind. It is time we move on.
So... yay for cartridges!! o/
@gcunit well just dance 2017 was confirmed for nx which is never on portables. It's likely not a hybrid guys, drop it.
@Marce2240 I meant frame rate matters more than graphics too.
Art style, and frame rate matter more than graphics.
Writhing these at work, so forgive my writting.
I expected this and that NX was a hybrid console from the beginning, which is a better solution than offering two different consoles with poor support. After E3 I think it's going to be weaker than what most people would like it to be though.
I would LOVE it if the NX used cartridges. Quicker loading times, less moving parts to fail, smaller and QUIETER console. Also wouldn't mind it being big for nostalgia reasons, so I can see my gold zelda cartridge in it while playing
@SanderEvers that sounds very underpowered and very expensive.
@WebHead Your Just Dance 2017 post would only apply if we were saying NX is a portable, which we're not. We're speculating that NX is a BOTH.
@azelf No, that's BS. A home console could easily use game carts too. Just think of 3DS carts, which are 8GB max, and with today's prices for flash/SSD memory, these could easily be made into 32GB-64GB carts, making them more than adequate in size for large games on a home console. It is also a great way for games to be shared between a portable and a home console...
Re-read your comment and saw that I was a bit too quick to jump onto you mentioning handheld and hybrid. As in "connecting a handheld to the tv" which I don't think it is going to be at all. And I suspect there to be separate devices too, so not one device being both home and handheld console...
@Jolt Yeah it's possible. There are microSDXC cards with a capacity of 128GB, and they are tiny. Regular BD (Wii U uses some kind of it) are 25GB only while dual-layer BD are 50GB.
@WebHead Well, Iwata isn't here. And although the NX was his conception, that doesn't mean Kimishima hasn't made changes to the design (which Iwata was eventually relieved from having any say so in). Personally, I don't care what the NX is or what it does, hybrid or not. But the point is no one, including you, can say what it "likely" is or isn't - everything is opinions and speculation right now. And just because Just Dance is a console series doesn't necessarily mean the NX couldn't be a hybrid, console/portable combo, or whatever. We won't anything concrete until Nintendo makes the official reveal, which will be a lot of fun and interesting, indeed. (And I'm not attacking you, by the way, since it's impossible to convey emotion through typing. I'm just conversing.)
The hybrid idea sounds amazing. Too good to be true, in fact. So I'll believe it when I see it.
Either way, I think it's a great idea for Ninty to use carts for the NX. There's no point in them having a disc drive anyway, as they can't/won't play blu-rays or DVDs, or even CDs as they won't pay for the license.
@Moon Agreed. I can play CDs, DVDs and BDs on my Xbox One and PS4 but not on my Wii U because Nintendo doesn't like to pay any licence so there's no point in having an optical drive in a Nintendo console unless it plays GameCube, Wii and Wii U discs, of course!! If it did I'd buy NX at launch!!
If it does use cartridges, I really, really, really hope they bring back cardboard boxes for games. The plastic cases last longer but lack personality and collectability.
I wouldn't mind at all if Nintendo rose the price of the NX above their normal "family-friendly" price range, especially if the hardware were pretty powerful. In fact, I'd welcome it. (I know they likely wouldn't do that based on prior history but still.) And backwards compatibility is overrated, in my opinion. I know most of the readership here will vehemently disagree with me on that. But I don't see anything wrong with potentially breaking compatibility with older hardware if, as a company, you're intending for a newer system to go in a new direction. Old stuff can't be supported forever but I know, I know that's not the Nintendo way or tradition. (No need to come at me with the N-shaped pitchforks, lol)
@Nintendofan83 Hmm... I don't know if they'd do that but that sure would be environmentally friendly, wouldn't it? I'm game!
No particular reason to think the home unit couldn't have a cartridge slot and an optical disc drive...
Awesome sounds good too me would love Nintendo too go back too cartridges.
@gcunit If you say hybrid and you don't mean one device, then it isn't a hybrid at all.
Hybrid = one device performing two functions. As in hybrid car, running both on fuel and electric power.
The NX is NOT going to be a hybrid. All comments made by Nintendo themselves, including Iwata's "like brothers" quote, seem to point way more to a shared OS, and similar architecture, making codename NX not a single device (remember the different form factors quote Iwata also made?) but a family of devices all sharing that same OS, so it sounds more like a complete ecosystem, like so many other Operating Systems: different devices running the same program.
That would also make it feasible to have game carts be interchangeable between devices since they would all be able to read them.
This was my original idea, ever since the "cartridges" (I say it like that because people keep thinking of the bulky cartridges of old, like SNES and N64, while we SHOULD be thinking of small high capacity carts like on 3DS) rumor came into play, which I recently posted here again:
Please do it!! We have surpassed discs at this point. SD tech is way larger and more efficient now!
The new handheld could provide the screen for Wii U backwards compatibility I expect, although rely on having an optical drive as well! I think NERD may have the talent to knock up a decent emulator.
@Neon_Blues Oh, then I definitely agree. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
@WebHead Just Dance is on iOS. Besides that, the concept people have of a hybrid system involves taking your console games on the go.
@ThanosReXXX Terminology aside, that's what most people have in mind. A single "conceptual" device performing two functions (NX portable, NX home console). I agree with your idea about compatible cartridges, it makes sense for Nintendo to adopt that strategy as a way to maximize their software output for each device.
@ThanosReXXX Hybrid device / hybrid system - who cares? Why all the semantics over 'hybrid'? The main feature I think people are referring to when they use 'hybrid' is the idea that games will be playable at home on the TV and on the move. The games themselves will be 'hybrid games', no longer limited to one or the other.
But, while you mention hybrid device, the Iwata quote I referenced above quite clearly alludes to the possibility of Nintendo streamlining their hardware to one device.
But, like I say, I don't need NX to be 'one device' for it to meet my understanding of hybrid.
@gcunit if I get it, I'm not selling it. I probably will but I'm just in two minds because I could use the money to get games instead aha.
@VanillaLake Thanks for explaining all, it really changes things... imagine having a handheld counterpart that could play BOTW on the go... but of course we'll see with time. Soon I hope though.
@gcunit Yeah, for me personally it isn't really an issue, and I wasn't really singling you out, but in general, people are using the label incorrectly.
I do agree with you about the game being hybrid, and that is a much more fitting description.
The Iwata quote was open to interpretation and doesn't signify anything that conclusive to me, much like the "like brothers" quote, which I have interpreted in my own way but might just as well mean something entirely different altogether.
And he did also speak about multiple form factors, handhelds, home consoles and so forth, so it seems he was going all over the place with his statements concerning the NX concept.
So, I guess we'll just going to have to bite our nails for a few more months until we actually find out what the quirky little wizards at Nintendo were really on about...
My only concern is that if the (3rd-party/indie) developers will get used to develope games in cartridges. I say this because nowadays everybody developes games not just digitally, but they also develope games in Blu-Ray discs and specialized discs.
My other concern would be that I don't want the NX to end up with a similar case like the N64 (Happy 20th Birthday, btw) used to have, in where it had limited third-party support because of their cartridge technology, when clearly, by that time disc technology was booming (Panasonic 3DO, Philips CDi, Sega CD add-on, Sega Saturn, Playstation, and the Sega Dreamcast) in the 90's.
Did this make any sense?
@John_Enigma Your comment makes perfect sense, but your worry is unfounded. Do not think of cartridges like the ones that SNES or N64 had, because these were severely limited in size.
Think instead of the smaller cards that the 3DS has. These are now 8GB maximum, but can easily be expanded to hold 32GB - 64GB or even more if necessary. These can then be used both by the home console and the handheld and the programming would be exactly the same as on a DVD/Blu-ray disc, since you only change the medium that you put the game on, not the game/program itself, so it can still be read in the exact same way, whether it is on cartridge or on disc.
And on the plus side: memory cards are much faster nowadays as well, compared to Blu-rays or proprietary disc based media, so think quicker start up of your game, faster loading times in between, so more seamless playing of games.
I never understood why having carts for the N64 was a bad idea for Nintendo seeing as how they load faster than CDs at the time.....
The development of cartridges is actually quite amazing. Think about 3ds games, they come on cards packed gigabytes of content. Personally, I like the idea of cardridges, on the other hand, though, I rather wished the Nx to be backwards compatible with wii u and wii games - like a vastly upgraded wii console. Be it as it may - probably gonna buy it, but not day one - will have to buy another wii u soon, or maybe even two, just too many amazing games in my collection and I dont want to pay for those games again nx vc console...
Unless they have a 100gb cartridge in development this is a terrible idea.
Well, i like cartridge a lot rather than optical disc. Less scratch, faster loading time and pretty looking design. I hope they improved the quality sound as matter as fact 3DS cartridge has less louder sounds than NDS. I don't mind if cartridge size is bigger than 3DS, as long not smaller than psvita. I can imagine the box size of NX somewhat square shape like 3DS. Square box looks pretty than rectangle box.
@RedeadLink Honestly, devs could deliver quite an impressive game with half the capacity you're talking about. I believe Vita game cards go up to a maximum 8GB capacity and Vita games are visually impressive and pack in lots of detail. To each their own but I think it could be a great idea - if true. I'm primarily a 3DS gamer and the startup/loading times on the system are virtually nonexistent due to the 3DS game cards' flash media. It would be awesome if the same could be applied to console games - again, if true.
@MadAussieBloke actually what people are calling a hybrid is pretty much Nintendo doing what Apple does. Nintendo alluded to it when they first spoke about the NX. They simply want the NX to be a common OS shared over all of their hardware.
The only difference is that according to WSJ the portable will be made so that it can work together with the home console
I don't think that having cartridge-based media is a good idea. Remember back in the 90s when third party developers all jumped ship to develop for the PlayStation instead of the N64? Cartridges are expensive to produce and yield lower profits when compared to discs. Nintendo has enough problems convincing third parties to get on board with their consoles already. Their profitability has been shaky the past while as well and producing carts instead of discs would compound that issue. I don't know exactly how expensive it is to produce carts and flash memory these days, but surely it can't be less than discs. This makes me apprehensive.
@RedeadLink no clue the company that's producing the game cards is supposedly using 32nm chips. No idea how much that holds
That would be very interesting to see cartridges on home consoles again
@TheBigK no worries mate developers seem to have no problem developing for the Vita and 3ds. The NX will essentially use the same technology.
Besides developers have been confirmed to be excited about the new console
So Nintendo is doing this to be different, not to enhance the gaming experience.
Sigh. The NX isn't looking good.
@mariovslink62 not exactly to be different, they probably don't want to ask Sony for the right to use Blu rays. That and load times and having to install your games b4 u play them is a real problem. Having games on cartridges saves you hard drive space
@c1pher_c0mplet Yeah but most devs use as much as they can. If NX wants multiplat support they need to support large file sizes
@ANiMUS00 This isn't going to be good for a home console though. Home Console Cartiridges can't hold as much as CD's do, and that's not even adding on the cost of making the game.
If cartridges were better, we would have switched already.
I'll gladly wave good-bye to the optical media, but those little (3)DS cards are still not as satisfying to hold as those big chunky Game Paks of yore, especially the Genesis games in their glorious VHS-style cases. And those game cases feel rather flimsy...kinda like those Genesis cases after the rose glasses come off. Hmm...
@mariovslink62 you seem to be a bit behind. This is flash memory that we are talking about. The price of flash memory has only gone down in recent years and it's still getting cheaper
@ANiMUS00 You mean the 3DS one's? I don't think thats going to work for a home console.
I really just don't think that Nintendo needs to go back to cartridges for a console at least.
@jimi I do know about that, but who said carts were the answer? They could easily just use regular discs as well.
I'm a PC gamer BTW. I don't own a console outside of my Wii U. Though I might sell it, and get a PS4.
I hope it's on a gold cartridge if they use cartridges.
@mariovslink62 kinda except the company that makes those cards has created a new card that holds much more.
Don't be so negative and just wait and see. If these cards can hold more, eliminate load times and installs, reduce hard drive usage, and developers are cool with it, I can't really see a problem
@mariovslink62 No, that's not true at all. That's only relevant if you're thinking about classic cartridges, such as we had on the SNES and N64.
In this case, you should be thinking about 3DS game cards, only with a higher capacity, since these currently max out at 8GB, but the same cards (and not cartridges, which I think where much of the confusion in general is coming from, since all media and most people keep saying "cartridges") can easily be bumped up to higher capacities. Up to 64GB would still be affordable nowadays, and these cards offer many advantages over disc-based media.
Easier to take with you
interchangeable between devices
(if NX home console and handheld use the same cards)
@ThanosReXXX I had the exact hybrid conversation w/ Jax awhile back. I basically left it with this.
If you have a donkey and a horse in your backyard and ride them, you are not riding a hybrid. If they have a baby and you ride your mule then you are riding your hybrid. A horse is a horse (home), a donkey is a donkey (handheld), a mule is a portable w/ TV out or a Wii U 2 with a Game pad that works on its own, meaning the console itself is probably just a streaming device and the Game pad is the actual console. Which would make it a portable with TV out but the big box part would let them market it as a home. Like the wii "sensor bar" didn't sense anything, it was only LED lights.
NX "platform" will be a donkey and a horse that eat the same food, no mule.
@jimi I might as well. They have games. Wii U has nothing for me right now. No reason for it to collect dust.
@ThanosReXXX Alright after looking it up you are correct.
Maybe if people did say cards I would understand.
@rjejr Well, no need to explain that to me, since I already know the difference.
But I like your analogy. Hope that a few people pick that up and leave the whole "it's a hybrid" alone...
Realistically, though... this being the internet and all...
Carts hold more data , load faster, don't scratch, look better and can be made very cheaply.. What's not to like?
I'm not sure whether cartridges will be a good choice if they use them, but I'll have to just wait and see
@rjejr I agree with this since it fits with what Nintendo themselves have stated about the console
I like the cartridge idea b/c it allows 1 game to be played on both systems. But I'm not a fan of how the 3DS carriages fit in so snugly. Go put your 3DS on a flat hard surface and try to easily get a cartridge in and out. Now, it does work a bit easier if you flip the 3DS over, and you can even read the label that way, but putting them in and out is still hard. I'm hoping if this is the case they put an eject button next to the cart slot on the home console.
Also, NX Home and NX Away could play the same games on different media - discs on home, carts on away - which is why Zelda is listed that way. Having separate discs and carts for the same game might get people to go digital more often if they implement cross buy for all games. Cartridges may be cheap, but downloads would be cheaper for Nintendo.
On a side not, I like how 3DS cartridges added a little nub to the DS cartridges. If the NX - at least the handheld - uses catridges, they could probably just add another nub to the other side, making a T shape on top, and not have to reinvent the wheel. And then maybe some how the NX could be backwards compatible w/ 3DS games?
Could you imagine if they shaped these carts/cards like mini NES cartridges? Awesome!
@ANiMUS00 Nintendo stated something about the console that they didn't disavow or change 5 minutes later? I'm just trying to take a little of this and a little of that and come up with something that makes sense. Thanks for agreeing with me though.
@ThanosReXXX I know you get it, it was really just about showing you the analogy, and as usual I got carried away. I like your "more sturdy", I probably would have just gone with "sturdier".
@mariovslink62 Yeah, it's kind of dumb for official media and reporters to keep saying cartridges, since people all keep imagining these bulky plastic cassettes that you had to forcefully jam into your console. Well, at least sometimes...
We simply have to put this image into people's minds and all this "oh, please no cartridges because they are weak, haven't got enough space and it isn't the 80's anymore" BS will stop:
That tiny little game is a relatively simple one, weighing in at only 790.75 MB, but the bulky N64 game you see there is only 8 MB, so that tiny card holds almost 100 times that amount of data! And the maximum capacity of a standard 3DS card is 8GB, which would make that a 1000 times more...
Here's an entire list of 3DS game card sizes, in case anyone's interested...
Oh, and if people think that SNES or N64 cartridges are bulky, try Neo Geo cartridges. A comparison:
@ThanosReXXX Now if only we could drop the gimmicks. Just a simple controller. Imagine how good the NX would be!
@rjejr Yeah, I mix up a lot of words. I came to the Netherlands when I was 9, so I have done almost my entire education here, and had to drop my American English in favor of the British English that they teach over here, making me mix a lot of words nowadays, so I will for example either use flavor or flavour, depending on what my spell checker tells me...
@ThanosReXXX I also wonder how it would look on a console. Probably like the 3DS but with a slot for Consoles rather than handhelds. Sorta like how SD cards are put into the Wii U.
@mariovslink62 Could either be a top loader like the N64, or a front loader like the NES or even the Game Boy Player that you could buy for the GameCube...
@MadAussieBloke how do you know?
" Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples"
^this was from Iwata before his passing and falls in line with the recent restructuring of Nintendo's game development team where both the teams working on the 3ds and the Wii U were combined
If NX cartridge as small as 3DS cartridge or a bit bigger, i wonder if there will be an official cartridge case box so we can carry a lot of them just like 3DS card box. 3DS cartridge case from Nintendo Club looks so gorgeous sexy box with changeable cover.
32GB rom memory is cheap. I hope we go back to no loading, instant read rom carts.
Really? Are cartridges so powerful?
The newer SDXC memory cards go up to a massive 2Tb size,now of course this is way too much memory,but 32gb-64gb cards are more than enough for modern games.
Also this form of storage would cut down the need for massive pre game memory installs,as the data can be accessed more quickly.
@OneBagTravel if you are talking about the new cartridge size, then it's supposedly 32 nanometers not 32gb
@MadAussieBloke It's called streaming
@3MonthBeef Yeah, prices were ridiculous. I was jealous at a class mate of mine back then, because he had one, but I certainly wasn't jealous of all the way too expensive hardware. (although his dad paid for everything, so he wasn't really having any issues with it)
Nowadays I just play these games on my Wii, DSi and Dreamcast. The Dreamcast can run the roms as well as the original Neo Geo CD's by adding a Dreamcast boot block. It works like a charm.
The way I see the NX working is kinda like how the Super Game Boy and the Game Boy Player worked, only you know, powerful. Have a cartridge that you can put in a handheld, and also in the console.
I really don't know what to say. I have never used Cartridges except for 3DS or Game Boy advance. So yeah, I really don't know what to say. LOL! If this thing is true, I won't know what to say.
Can we please drop the term 'cartridge' already and just call it as what it is: flash memory? Because I think the term 'cartridge' is giving people the wrong idea. They get nostalgic when they hear that name but even the 3DS 'cartridges' are just flash memory.
In 20 years, we'll be able to get out our old NX cartridges, blow on them a little bit, and play them!
@azelf not necessarily, do you call the NES, SNES and N64 a "under the tv console hybrid"?
its pointing to a Console of some type and knowing Nintendo Macronix is involved.
@cfgk24 Either that or Laser Disc.
@Jolt yes, through the power of file compression.
think of this as a "card" rather than a cart...
essentially, 64 GB SD cards are cheaper than what they were during the lifecycle of the 3DS.
and don't forget that it costs less for a manufacturer to make it than to buy it off them, we call them "Wholesalers"
Macronix makes the chips for Nintendo, Nintendo give 3rd party a licence, reduced if on eshop...
the benefits of this is... no 2TB HDD (I'm fine with EXT) or a way to remove it like the PS4.
disc drives cost mad prices.
developers can code to the metal with Vulcan API (which Nintendo is apart of.)
no need to install from blu ray (think back to the patents)
no added fee of using Sony's proprietary format.
@gcunit that's not a hybrid, the retro duo and Supaboy are NES and SNES hybrids.
@whodatninja Even if the NX had an 8x, it would have a max DTR of 36MB/s. A SanDisk EP UHS-1 64GB has a tranfer rate of 95MB/s. What's more, and especially attractive to me, is the prospect of the NX being able to re-write the memory card to include updates and DLC purchases, so that you don't have to rely on likely-defunct servers when you want to replay a game in ten years time.
@SanderEvers so... the NX is a codename for a platform of devices running on a shared OS?
@WebHead I'm guessing you've never heard of Just Dance Now on Android and iOS...
And the Just Dance 2015 & 2016 controller mod, which uses an Android device:
How about that, an example of hybrid mobile/console implementation, predating the NX... And as I recall, there was a third party title announced for NX at E3? It was a Just Dance series entry!? Gee, I wonder how that will function?
And if the next home/portable consoles are like brothers (such as, say, Mario & Luigi) couldn't that mean they support each other as a team?
@ThanosReXXX and SD ports are able to support 4K, Nintendo is using cards to break off from 4K Blu ray. NX may as well have 4K Netflix streaming. but the share OS make GBA and GCN level intergration possible, something that couldn't be done on Wii U and 3DS.
@RedeadLink its actually cheaper to make than normal SD cards, and digital downloading is very popular amongst modern gamers nowadays and 100GB or 64GB are good options because they are SDXC which supports 4K content.
Cartridges are so expensive and we all know nintendo are cheap when it comes to it ... they always use low spec/quality things ... they never even used blue ray's yet ... how can they provide a cartridge of 100GB for millions of ppl and the cartridge it self are expensive to make while their consoles it self comes as 8GB for 3ds and 32GB for wii U as a ( deluxe ) edition lol ... they never manage to make a console with more than 32gb in 2016 and you asking for a Cartridges of 100gb lol ! ...
@HSuzumiyaVI You've got it the wrong way round. If it's a cart it must also be a handheld. You can't carry around discs.
@ThanosReXXX You've got it the wrong way round. If it's a cart it must also be a handheld. You can't carry around discs.
@mariovslink62 512 GB SD card
you are clearly mistaken
speed class chart
@HSuzumiyaVI the price of this thing is 600$ hahahah
@HSuzumiyaVI nintendo and 4K ? hahaha even ps4 can't do 4K so far until ps4 neo comes out .. xbox one S is the only console now with 4k ... if nintendo made a console with 1080 and 60fps you should happy and they might not do that even with NX
@peeks Cards (not carts) are better than Blu-Ray for Nintendo, they don't have to abide by a proprietary format or royalties. They can just use their own manufacturer to make their own cards.
All it takes to match regular Blu-Ray disc size is a 64GB card. (Or a 128GB card to match BDXL.) Most 64GB SDXC cards are $20-40 depending on features (and brand), not exactly breaking the bank. (At $40-60, 128GB is more expensive, but no one uses that much data for one game anyways.) And those are rewritable cards, read only cards would be much cheaper. No one except the manufacturers have solid metrics on price-performance ratio of read only cards of similar or higher quality than SDXC, though.
I agree that native rendering at 4K is a pipe dream for consoles right now, though. Even top of the line PC equipment struggles with native 4K resolution at 30 FPS or more on Ultra settings for demanding software. The upcoming consoles are probably just going to upscale from a lower resolution using Virtual Super Resolution (VSR) onto a 4K display.
@Neon_Blues: Brilliant point. I immediately think of Gunman Clive. It's not high-def shiny, but so incredibly well done. And LoZ: Breadth of the Wind just blew folks away at E3 and it oozes artistry.
Cartridges are not bad, they are good.
@azelf if is using carts it using the same media format, the OS is to emulate and port NX games from handheld to home console and vice versa. like apple.
they are unifying the architecture, and if there is chips that blow the wii U out of the water then i'll believe Zelda breath of the wild on the go. this just sounds like a emulation layer, like PC low-medium to high.
Nintendo had trouble getting the 3DS and wii U to cooperate with each other and the merger of the two teams was so that when developing console handheld they all know the specifications, share the same format and can target the specs to handle ports of Console titles to handheld titles.
@PlywoodStick but definitely possible with Nintendo, as they aren't into photorealism,
Why do so many people keep talking about backwards compatibility? It has been said by kimishima that it is not a successor to the Wii u and also that it will be moving away from the Wii branding. Both these statements say nothing to suggest any form of backwards compatibility.
I would love carts to come back.
@RedeadLink I'm sorry, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. There is no game disc in either the PS4 or Xbox One library that is bigger than 50GB. There are of course always compressed files on these discs, so taking that into account, I've looked at the install sizes of games.
The biggest install size on PS4 is the Battlefield Bundle, which is complete with DLC, and that weighs in at 74.273GB, the next biggest game is a big step smaller at 58.375GB and after that sizes only go smaller.
On the Xbox One, the biggest install size is 62.74GB, with the next biggest game being 55.69GB and like with the PS4, from then on, sizes drop significantly.
What this means for the whole NX game card theory, is that they will do just fine with an upgraded 3DS card that can hold between 32GB - 64GB of data, because with compression methods included, they could easily fit around 42GB - 60GB / 75GB - 100GB, which is more than enough for now and the coming future.
And any DLC can be downloaded to a hard drive, either internal or external, so the cards need not hold any of that.
I would explode with retro glee if cartridges made a comeback over discs. Have hated discs since Playstation 1 and have missed them ever since the Nintendo64. I've been 100% digital software only since PS3, but reintroducing carts would bring me back.
Why would it be hard to fit the new Zelda on a cartridge? You can buy a 256GB micro sd card and you can fit several of those into a 3ds cartridge. The new Zelda will not be 256GB in file size.
@PrinnyLink Yeah I agree, sounds pretty cool
@azelf First off, I edited my comment, since I've misread you the first time, so if you've missed that, you might want to read that for a bit of nuance.
But as far as the whole hybrid and handheld connected to the TV goes, that's not going to happen. Nintendo has stated multiple times, that it is going to be a home console, and so have several developers.
And if you'd have read any of my comments that followed the one in which I reacted to you, then you would see that I don't expect there to be any discs at all, so game cards (NOT cartridges) for both console and any handheld device that may come after.
NX is probably an architecture/ecosystem and not just one system. So, if it's cards then it "must" be a handheld is a bit of a shortsighted conclusion, since home consoles could also easily make use of them.
@PlywoodStick "All it takes to match regular Blu-Ray disc size is a 64GB card."
Actually, far less: standard Blu-ray is only 25GB, and dual layer is 50GB, obviously. And Blu-ray XL weighs in at either 100GB or 128GB, but you just need to take a look at how much space these current gen games actually occupy on the console's hard drives, and you'll see that 9 out of 10 times, you don't even need all of that space.
The prices you mentioned are consumer prices, not purchasing prices, which are almost half of what you said. A consumer can now get a good 32GB Micro SD card for around $15, so companies purchasing that would only have to pay around $7, and because they will obviously buy in enormous quantities, they would probably be able to cut that price in half again, so they would only pay around $3.50 for 32GB.
Add to that manufacturing costs and so on, and the final game wouldn't even have to cost all that much more than what current 3DS games are going for. And on 64GB cards they would only be slightly more expensive, like somewhere around $10 at the most.
I hate optical discs... They're noisy, slow, bulky and fragile, just to name a few of its drawbacks. They are a thing of the past, and the sooner we switch to Flash-like storage, the better for everyone.
And, probably the NX would not be able to use discs anyway: they don't like to be moved around while spinning. It's just another of its drawbacks.
Yes, I think one of the "parts" of the NX will be portable. Portable but not handheld. I even think Nintendo has shown that "part" to us all in this E3, but in a disguised form... let me see... He he he
@ThanosReXXX Ever heard of a thing called future proofing? Games are getting much much bigger as time goes on and for Nintendo to actually keep up they need to look ahead. True current games reach about 70gb at max but Nintendo shouldn't be competing with those consoles since the next ones will be packing in 4K textures etc. Even if the NX can't output 4K, file sizes will most likely be the same on each console. Take Assassin's Creed 4 for example which is around 17gb on both the Wii U and PC even though the textures are far superior in the latter. Sure Nintendo could survive on a 64gb cart but they will be severely limiting themselves like they did with the N64.
@Zeldafanforlife sorry I was misinformed at the time, I had no idea, I've been told now so it's OK :]
I'd go for cartridge again, as long they can hold a good amount of space for games.
The only con to using cartridges (cards would be more accurate) is that they're still more expensive than Bluray discs, despite the costs going way down. This is still mitigated when you consider the fact that Nintendo would be buying these things in bulk, and I'm sure Nintendo can score a good deal with Macronix or whoever is their current manufacturing partner for the 3DS cards.
@RedeadLink That is a ridiculous comparison and you know it. N64 cartridges maxed out at 64MB, and cd's ranged from 600 to 700MB, which is ten times as much.
We're now talking about a negligable difference of 10 to 15% on average. Like I said: 64GB cards can hold up to a 100GB when using compression, and they might even be able to optimize that to even more.
there will not be any games in the next 3 to 4 years that are going to be bigger than that. I'm talking the core game, not DLC and so on. Most games will stay well within that limit of a dual layer Blu-ray, so 50GB.
So, Nintendo won't simply survive, they will do just fine for years to come. And by then, 128GB cards will also have become a lot cheaper for them to buy, so there's your future proofing.
And on NX, the DLC can be downloaded to the console's or handheld's internal memory or SD card.
This doesn't spell out very good things concerning third party support for the NX. Cartridges are more expensive to manufacture, and that's extra cost that needs to be eaten by the publisher. It adds up when you're manufacturing millions of copies of a game.
I just can't wrap my mind around why Nintendo is making this decision. The additional manufacturing costs make cartridges seem like way more trouble than they're worth. But who knows, I hope I'm wrong.
Flash media = hacked media.
@HSuzumiyaVI There's so much to it, woah aha
Cartridges are a very good thing for the consumer. I don't know why you wouldn't want them to benefit us unless you're one of the people running one of these big name game companies and you don't want to take a small hit on your bottom line. Am I speaking to the president of EA, Activision, Ubisoft, etc...?
I'm just hoping beyond hope no one has commented that cartridges are old tech as they are obviously replacing opitical drives which have reached their max potential and never have been as reliable.
My guess is nx will be a home console with a stream-able handheld (replacing 3ds) which will also allow cart games to be streamed in a big tv... maybe
@SetupDisk The level of ignorance regarding modern storage media on display in this thread has been impressive, I'm sad to say. Thankfully, though, we do have informed, well spoken persons in our midst (ThanosReXXX for example) who have done a great job explaining the advantages of cartridge/card media.
Oh man I hope the NX uses some form of cartridges. Maybe that'll mean that game data won't be tied to a single console.
I'm excited by this as i hate to install/update every game on my xbox1 and with these cards you just pop them in and away you go.
im hopeing for sd card media for the handheld and full on old style carts that actually add a hardware boost due to the chips contained inside each individual cart, in theory the console would be upgraded depending on the game being played, think like super fx chip that enabled the snes to run starfox
cant do that with discs
Modern cartridges (as opposed to NES/SNES era) last longer and are less damage prone than discs. I sure hope to see them return. I would like to see them smaller, SD Card sized in fact. I know Nintendo likely will not use a card type so easily accessible, but I don't mean SD cards exactly, just similar.
Good news if true. Cartridges can hold more data and are usually much more efficient than discs. Though I'm sure third-parties won't see it that way. We'll see what happens.
I'm 99% sure that the NX is using cartridges at this point.
@Kirk Why don't you check out SuperMetaldave64's YouTube page. You'll find a recent video that addresses your dilemma.
@MadAussieBloke I can see it as a hybrid, but not like people expect. I imagine it will come with advanced streaming technology that will allow it to be playable anywhere around the house, and even on the porch and in the backyard several feet away from the house. Simply putting PS4 power into a handheld would be too expensive. Although...
The same document also suggests that Ever Oasis would be available in cartridge and disc formats. That is obviously a mistake, as Ever Oasis is a 3DS exclusive, so Zelda being available on cartridge media could also be a mistake as well.
Personally, I would like to see cartridges be utilized as the primary physical media on Nintendo's future handhelds and consoles so the idea of having a shared library amongst handhelds and consoles can come to fruition (other benefits, such as the larger storage capacity and not needing a disc drive in the hardware also apply) , but these documents don't prove a thing, given the erroneous Ever Oasis error.
@GravyThief I might cry if they were little NES cartridges. It'd be sad.. I'd definitely be that guy.
@Kroko Da Vinci used pen and paper as well. And optical media is hardly being abandoned. That's just a silly assumption.
You can't get nearly the same video quality, for instance, through streaming as you can get if you buy, borrow or rent a BluRay. That's 50GB of data per movie vs 4-5GB at most companies like netflix and hulu give you. The difference in picture quality and especially motion realism is immense. Streaming even fails in comparison to DVD, as DVD has about the same (or more) amount of data at a much smaller resolution, not to mention that compression methods used by streaming services are very harsh, and actually require a very high bitrate to look natural in comparison to more relaxed compression codecs.
And then you get to the pride of ownership and the feel of physical media which intangible stuff just doesn't have.
Nintendo will list everything on a trademark listing. Anyone ever checked out the trademark listing for F-Zero? I'm still waiting for an F-Zero RPG to play while sipping some F-Zero teacups.
@ThanosReXXX Thank you for making the case, and clarifying everything! Cards are the way to go!
Hmm. I wonder if they will have memory cards that function similar to the Famicom Disk System's 'Disk Writer Kiosks' in Japan. Would be a nifty alternative to rentals since Blockbuster is gone.
I really hope they do go with cards because I'm quite fond of carts/cards. I just like them better then discs. They're just more gamey/retro/cool. I'd like to see them a bit bigger then the 3DS cards so we can see some nice artwork on the sticker.
@Jolt Blu Ray discs can hold up to 200 gb and some sd cards hold 512 gb so it's very likely
@mariovslink62 Cartridges used to not be able to hold much at all compared to cds but now the 3ds game cards can hold 8gb and some sd cards can hold 512 gb. they also have much faster load times than cds and dvds.
@Crumpet123 i'm kind of hoping that too. like not quite a hybrid but the new handheld, while having its own games, would also be able to play some of the home console games like the psp
@CircuitWrangler3 I doubt it will.
With modern production, cartridges could be a lot more feasible than they ever were, and it would really help separate out the digital and physical markets again.
I could see both the oldtimers and the parents digging it.
Load times would once again almost disappear, and save games could much more easily be stored per-game for bringing to a friend's house.
And most importantly, physical copies would once again feel like a substatial product, and not just a flimse piece of plastic.
!!! Here's my REAL prediction though:
It won't be cartridges. It won't be discs. They won't go into the system at all.
It will be Amiibos.
Physical copies will actually be a toy that you just place on top of the system.
@BlastClaw Thanks for the compliment.
@PlywoodStick You're more than welcome. But to be honest, and I have already said that before, the fact that people keep having nightmares about cartridges returning and complaining about it, isn't really their fault, since it's the media that does such a bad job of explaining.
And especially the general media that aren't really video game specific, so these create an incorrect image of the whole idea in the minds of consumers, making them think that we're going back to large, bulky pieces of plastic that we have to blow in from time to time...
@Kirk Aw, you little pessimist, you...
@ThanosReXXX Can't really argue with that. lol
@Kirk I do get you sometimes, though, but even if a lot of these people posting videos are only speculating and guesstimating, there actually IS quite a bit of sensible talk in Dave Trevelyan's (SuperMetalDave64) videos. And for what it's worth, up til now, he is the person with the most consecutive mod approval's on sites like NeoGAF, meaning they verified the sources that he used for his videos.
Still, you might not even watch these, but he did a sort of a tandem video with PlayerEssence and the topic they are bringing up and how to respond to it sounds pretty logical to me:
And Dave also made a new video on the topic of cartridges, where he looks into what type will be used if Nintendo is indeed going to use this type of media:
@ThanosReXXX I watched the video and he talked as though it's basically confirmed the NX will now use cartridges. Right off the bat I was out. lol
I'm not buying anything anyone says based on some speculation or leaked Patents, even the stuff I say.
Until it's basically confirmed by Nintendo directly, it's all junk imo.
@Kirk So you started with the last video?
The other one was better, to be honest. But he always talks like that, although in the beginning he used to add that it is still up in the air, but nowadays he probably assumes that anyone who watches his videos, knows that he is either using his sources or is theorizing, so he isn't stating this disclaimer anymore.
It's like people on here stating facts and if you call 'em out on it they say that it's their opinion...
I like the tandem video, though. It's about instead of expecting the worst, inspecting better because of Nintendo coming off of the Wii U disaster, so logically, they can hardly do any worse unless NX is Virtual Boy v2...
@Kirk As for the cartridge thing: it may not be confirmed yet, but more and more signs are pointing in that direction, and it does coincide with the Macronix article posted here a while ago.
@ThanosReXXX Someone linked that video earlier, so yeah.
And, carts could happen, it's possible, but I'm not biting until it basically comes from Nintendo.
For all I've read/heard it could just be a new type of memory card or whatever.
@Kirk True, but that's basically the same thing, but under another name. To-may-to, to-mah-to...
Flash card, SD card, 3ds card, rom card, memory card, whatever you wanna call it, it's a static medium to put data on and you need to insert it into a system to be able to read the data from it.
But knowing Nintendo, they will indeed use some sort of evolved 3DS card if they go the "cartridge" route, since something like a standard SD card won't be secure enough for them...
@ThanosReXXX Yeah, I'm not talking about the games being on carts; I'm just talking about some save data and stuff like that. Not that I'd even see that as a good reason to use carts in this day and age.
The games may come on carts—and Nintendo has repeatedly said how different NX is, so all the rules are open to be broken—but I'm still not convinced.
@Kirk I'm not completely convinced either, but from having digested all the news, rumors and what not, I'm still left being cautiously optimistic, and I too believe that they will not do a worse effort than the Wii U this time around. But the reality obviously is that we will just have to wait and see.
Come September we'll probably know if I have to join you in emptying a bottle of something really strong to drown my sorrows with or if we can pop a bottle of the fizzy and bubbly stuff...
@ThanosReXXX To be fair though, I wouldn't mind if we went with some form of carts again*, as long as Nintendo did it such a way that it wouldn't just end up meaning sacrificing in so many other ways we shouldn't have to sacrifice in 2016, or in such a way that we'd be entirely willing to make certain sacrifices for whatever benefits going with carts would bring. Basically, whatever, Nintendo goes for it has to make things better overall. And not just better in a vacuum but better than the competition too, otherwise we might as well just stick with what we have.
*Personally I'd actually like to see the return of game cards like those used on the PC-Engine:
Cool little game cards the size of a business card (with lovely illustrated labels and stuff); I could go for that.
@Kirk That would be nice indeed. I really liked the HuCards, so bring em on. Also loved the console, by the way. It already showed decades ago that consoles don't have to be big and bulky at all.
I also saw a comment somewhere (don't know if it was here or not) about how it would be cool if they would make them look like small NES cartridges, and I think that would be cool too.
@ThanosReXXX Yeah, I loved how tiny the console was.
@Galagion I've been informed but thank you
Not sure it's a good idea. And Nintendo as they use tons of drm, I doubt the cart woks be writable except for a very small part.
Additionally the cart would be proprietary.
@Danrenfroe2016 And what exactly would be wrong with that? The 3DS also uses proprietary cards and it's doing just fine. Think of all the benefits instead of why it would be bad:
enormous gain in loading times
no moving parts, so sturdier
because of no moving parts also silent
small, so easily movable/portable
easy way of sharing games between devices
And there's probably a whole lot more reasons, but these are the ones that are the most obvious.
How's the Dreamcast saga going?
Just add a tenner to the cost of the physical edition. Bring back proper manuals and market them as 'premium'. Price problem solved.
@ThanosReXXX I just worry About Nintendo...
N64 carts that were to small (lost so many franchises to the PS1)
Cube: freaking weird small disks that again were weird and only 1.5Gb? again bucking the 4.5 and 9Gb of the competition.
Wii: proprietary DVD
Wii U: proprietary BD
And 3DS Cart is only 8Gb (works great for handheld games) but way to small for current day games
I would not mind a cart, its just that i worry Nintendo will shoot way to low or make it inflexible and the developers will run for the hills again.
and havent played Sega saturn or dreamcast lately... been playing six golden coins on my new game boy player for the cube. best $30 spent ever!
@Marce2240 Nintendo commander sylux, is that you?
@Kicked2TheKirb It is. Nice meeting you here.
@Bsham Yeah, just take a look at the Vita.
@Danrenfroe2016 Ah, Super Mario Land 2, a classic...
As for the whole worry about cartridges thing: I certainly won't hold it against you if you haven't bothered to read the first 188 comments before you posted something yourself, but if you're interested to know, then I would like to invite you to read some of my previous comments in this thread where I already debunked misunderstandings and explained exactly how Nintendo could do this and why this is certainly not a bad thing at all.
The relevant comments are 43, 52, 79, 90, 131, 137 and 143.
No need to manually scroll up to find them, I hot-linked them all, so clicking on a number will take you right to the comment in question.
Might be handy to right click and open in a new tab so you don't have to scroll back down again to click on the next comment...
(either that or you could use the back button in your browser)
@Mintendo Surely Wax cylinders are making a comeback sometime soon . ..
is it possible to get old school carts that actually add to the hardware ie custom chips inside an oldschool cart
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