Fire Emblem If Changes The Traditional Weapons Triangle

The Shining Force fan inside me is pleased about the weapon use change, but I can imagine some long-time Fire Emblem fans will be a bit put-off by the change.

Remember to breathe*?

dammit... how am I gonna remember that... right now I just use "S A L" - now it is like "SM AB LD" - this might work - Super Mario, A-B, Larry David? - no that sucks...

Yeah, like @GoombaJMR said, it's "breathe", right?

As long as the enemies don't just carry generic weapons then it should be fine. It's an unexpected change but change is good. Good!!!

Sounds like the weapon triangle is still there but now the weapons are sort of categorised. "Magic" is now paired with swords, bows with axes, and dark magic with lances. Most notably, bows being part of the triangle; this change will be very interesting since it'll be in effect at all times now.

So the Tactician must really hate Axes and Bows then? This will take some getting use to but I'm guessing they are pairing ranged and close up weapons. As well as trying to give some weakness to magic, which has been quite vicious in the titles I got at.

@vitalemrecords
Super Mario Ate Burritos on Lunch and Dinner.

So... is the "If" actually part of the name? I hope it doesn't stay like that.

I don't even remember the Weapon Triangle, I just use my strongest weapon.

Ah, I panicked for a second but it's not as worrisome. Interesting change though...

I've never bought a Fire Emblem. Should I start with this one?

Good, the triangle is just altered not removed and limited weapon uses really only made sense on the most op weapons anyway. Lots of players just found ways to get around it in a few titles.

I was actually pretty worried by the title and subtitle that this was going to say that they removed the weapons triangle completely to further casualize the gameplay (which would be fine with me if it was the case in Phoenix Mode only but I'd be really annoyed if they forced that on all modes like they are doing with the removal of weapon durability).

From actually reading the topic after that though, the actual situation here, where they're really just changing up and adding to the weapons triangle a bit, doesn't neccesarily sound bad to me at all. It'll definitely throw me off at first and take a little getting used to but I almost feel that this could add more strategy rather than take strategy away like I was worried about. I'll have to reserve full judgement until I try it but it sounds like it could be an interesting change.

@Jock_Nerd - the Fire Emblem fan in me says try out the FE on virtual console if you have a Wii U....less money and a great game, better then Awakening in my opinion, but Awakening and FE IF seem to be more tailored to new players.

If you enjoy a challenge or like chess then you probably will enjoy all of them.

It all sounds like progression to me. I'm so hyped for If... and I, for one, love the title. Do we know for certain that the game will be released as two separate versions like in Japan?

@Jock_Nerd
FE on Wii U virtual console or FE: Awakening on 3DS. But IF looks great so far.

"Dark weapon" seems more like a literal translation of 暗器 when assassination/concealed weapon would make more sense since there are apparently shinobi in the game.

@BurningSonic If you are talking about in Awakening, then I agree, as the weapon triangle didn't matter at all. The only thing you really have to worry about is bows and wind against pegusi, and lightning against knights.

Also, as a long time FE fan, I am really happy with the new, more complex "weapon triangle".

I have mixed feelings about this.

@OdnetninAges Same here. I love that S A L mechanic and now they are changing that? I think they did this to ease the challenge a little but that was part of the challenge. Also, now that they don't have limits, how can we make them stronger?

But if the game is still fun, I guess I should be fine with that.

@Gerbwmu I do have a Wii U. Thanks for the input.

@Frank90 Thanks for the input as well. I see a trend here.

Not as terrible as I thought it would be.

I'm going to get all three campaigns first, and then complain lol. The positives to If... are: 1. It's not a direct sequel to Awakening; 2. There's a difficult version for longtime fans; 3. The visuals already surpass Awakening; 4.The campaign looks like it's triple the size of Awakening; and 5. We haven't even learned of what DLC we can expect and if Awakening was any indication, it could be a substantial amount.

Pls let japanese voices be an option in western release pls pls pls

@EllenJMiller The shining force inside me only says forgetting about the triangle.

@Captain_Gonru yeah I know, I just use shortcuts - having fun here

As if the flying units didn't have enough to worry about when facing archers, most of them are also lance users! Wow, that particular matchup could be overkill along the lines of hitting a Mantine with Thunderbolt.

At the core, it's still swords over axes over lances; they're just adding a second component to each part of the triangle. Phew I'm still breathing!

................................Well looking closer, it's still the old triangle at it's core. Just that they're now using bows to take the place of light magic for whatever nonsensical reason (they've removed so many other things that basically makes FEif the most nonsensical and unrealistic game in the series).
Though, now bows seem to be weak to two things, so bow users are more **** than EVER BEFORE. Of course IS could make archers better to balance that out, but I doubt we'll be back to the days of Marksman Shinon tanking and demolishing armies by himself.

I know FE is "evolving", because it has to in order to survive. However it feels the game is DEVOLVING even further than before just in order to appeal to casuals. Instead of a dinosaur becoming a bird to take flight into the limitless sky, it's more like an amphibian returning to being a fish so it can be with a huge school of its own in a cramped little pond. It's safer, but more me-too and archaic.
This little change in the triangle feels like an afterthought decision to attempt to appeal to older fans by trying to incorporate complexity back to the formula. Only time will tell if it worked, but I seriously can't say anything other than WTF.

@WreckItRyan
Yeah, but now mages and bow users are more screwed than ever.

The weapon triangle didn't really change, it was just categorized a bit, which is kinda stupid unless the balance it out, which I don't see happening.
Also, what the hell is this bunk about weapons not having durability anymore?! That's one of the main draws of the Fire Emblem franchise - taking it out is just idiotic! What challenge is left when there's basically no inventory management anymore?! God, this game keeps getting worse with ever announcement...

I'm interested in this change, but I don't think Magic should be superior to bows. Mages are a far more versatile and powerful ranged unit anyway, so giving them superiority in ranged combat is going to make archers useless, unless their stats are changed to give them a very different purpose.

@Yorumi: The way that weapons act is a bit more unusual and different. This is, according to Serenes Forest, how it's going to work:

Bronze Sword: Cannot critical, but boosts Critical Evade by 10
Iron Sword: Nothing special
Steel Sword: Avoid -5, double attack threshold -3
Silver Sword: Critical Evade -5; after using, Strength and Skill -2 until next turn
Brave Sword: Allows 2 consecutive attacks, Defence and Resistance -4

But yeah. I'm still giving it the benefit of the doubt for now, but I'm very cautious toward it.

I don't know, I like Fire Emblem the way it is, but I liked some changes in relationship of the characters, so let's see what came from this.

Changing things up is a good thing. Whether this change will be an improvement or a downside remains to be seen. I as always am just hoping for good balancing (no stupid Galeforce).

I'm happy the system is "evolving". It's bad when developers are afraid of progressing the mechanics because what they did before still works.

Can't say I'm a fan of limited use weapon systems in the first place so I'm glad to see that gone.

@Yorumi: Trust me, I'm going to miss the management element of Fire Emblem if I get this game. That was simply to explain how they are at least balancing it.

Hopefully buster weapons stick around. I want a tomereaver bow to be a thing.

@Yorumi
Thing is, people like to argue that no one (casuals) don't like having to manage their weapons and that they want to use their favorites forever.
However, I'm personally totally against getting rid of durability and completely agree with you.

That actually sounds like an improvement at least partially. By directly integrating magic, bows and "dark weapons" (wuteva>) with the standart triangle weapons, the system looks like it's going to be more holistic. I do wonder though, will bows still top flying units, will there still be special weapons e.g. "swordbreaker" axes, and how will this be balanced if there is no more durability? Also, is magic just ... magic then?, what happened to dark/light, and wind/fire/thunder? Is that completely gone?
Depending on how this plays out in the end, this could potentially be more a case of oversimplification being mislabeled as "progress", "evolution" or whatever than actual modernization. I'm sceptical, but I trust IS enough to keep an open mind.
I think worst case scenario would be that we end up with something that feels more like a spin-off than an actual Fire Emblem game .... but still plays fantastic and is a lot of fun.

Last but not least:
"Some ideas are so integral to series franchises that to change them can seem blasphemous"
I really disagree with that statement. The only pertinent question is, which idea is integral to the franchise, and which is not? Any integral idea cannot be messed with, without loosing the essence of the series. That is what integral means after all. You cannot turn Fire Emblem into a real-time tactics game and still expect any1 to buy because .... it's still FE guys! ... No it is not.
So, I would argue depending on what replaces the weapon triangle, any game they make can still very much be a FE game. The triangle is not really integral to the series, it's just something that we are used to by now, and which worked fairly well for a long time. If the replaced the weapon triangle with a mini-match-3-game though .... well, I doubt anyone would feel comfortable claiming any series continuity for such a monstrosity

A little revolution every now and then is a good thing. I think the changes make the nature of the two-sides title work better.

You guys, there's still plenty of inventory management. It's just changed from choosing between various weapon types, power levels, and usage limits (and rarely weapon effects) to choosing between weapon types, power levels, and lots of weapon effects. Also, you get a Steel Sword early on? It's still a treat. You just have to decide which character gets an early game power boost.

@AVahne Well, the mages (including the dark ones) are still balanced in that they have a range advantage over the melee weapons and maintain an even edge between the two other ranged weapon types (not sure about dragons, although they may not even be in the game seeing as they were very rare by the time of Awakening). In fact, they're probably more balanced than in games like Awakening when they have both the range advantage and no weapon triangle weaknesses.

I will agree that the archers are pretty screwed by having the triangle weaknesses in addition to the inability to attack at melee range, which makes them especially vulnerable to sword(wo)men. They are helped by the fact that they can regain the range advantage with infinite use 2-3 range bows once you find a few, though, and they're still extremely useful against the lance toting flying units as well as a pretty good match against dark mages.

I'm not liking the change at all...

@Yorumi Different doesn't necessarily mean worse, though. Instead of deciding when it's best to use a limited use weapon, you now get a ton more choices on which weapons are best for which character to carry into battle. It's going to be a lot harder and more strategic to pick among the various choices to fill your five inventory slots in addition to the various support items you wish to carry.

They just made it easier. It's not a bad change or a good change. Sometimes I do get mad when I get lazy and I just realized my weapon is busted. I also remember having so many weapons. So this might help my organazation skills

@Yorumi Like I said, there are a LOT more weapon effects and a LOT more varied weapon effects now to REPLACE the strategy, and I don't just mean raw power and accuracy. We'll be constantly deciding if we want this sword which is good in these situations or that sword which is good in these situations. In addition, we'll also be deciding whether it's best for this character to get this sword or that one to carry it. Yes, there is some of that in other games like Awakening like the blessed and breaker weapons, but that will be a pittance compared to the choices we'll have now. Throw in the characters that can use multiple weapon types, and we'll be struggling with decisions like, well, I want these three swords, but I also really want these two lances, but she's also pretty frail so she needs a healing item, oh what do I leave out?! It's like deciding which of a Pokémon's attacks are best to fill out its four moveslot options.

I love the FE series, especially Awakening, but so far Im getting weird vibes from this one. Too Japanese-y for my tastes and all the changes just make me wary. Guess we will see how it turns out.

Way to nerf archers YET AGAIN, making them weak to the two most common weapons in the game with no logical or gameplay-related explanation! If you want dark and these new "dark weapons" to have a weakness, how about just bringing back light magic? Because that would just make too much sense.

And weapon durability, as @Yorumi said, was a major balancing tool and it annoys me to see it effectively thrown out the window. I liked the special, unlimited use weapons like the Falchion and Ragnell, as they were balanced as they were character specific mostly on par or even inferior to what you already had at the time (and I'll admit, I was a little horrified to learn that Roy's only saving grace, the Sword of Seals, broke after only 20 hits). Now they're adding in all this crap to try differentiate the normal weapons, like bronze weapons not even being able to critical hit (making them effectively useless) when durability did this just fine. Change for the sake of change is rarely a good thing.

This, along with the anti-consumer practice of selling the game in halves and the "easy path, hard path", both removing any big story-related moral decision from the game(s), as well as the likely "one-and-a-half years after Japan and everything is spoilt" release date, I'm quickly losing interest in this game (shame).

I also have to agree @invictus4000 , I'm not sure how I feel about Japan being the "good guys" (lol patriotism ).

@Yorumi You say you managed weapons strategically in the older games, but you could comfortably complete many of those game with iron weapons. For example in Fire Emblem (GBA) its highest rank in its ranking system requires you to beat the game on HHM with over 847,000 gold worth of items saved up used while using underlevelled characters to reach the EXP rank while completing the game in a small number of turns.

Playing the game normally you can access enough extra gold for 705 Silver weapons(84,600 uses) with the Silver Card. Can you honestly say you really strategically managed your weapons when even ignoring the arena you get given enough money through gameplay and rare items that you can afford to buy enough the top tier weapons to fill the storage seven times over? Outside of funds ranking which is only in a few games there's rarely any need to strategically manage weapons due to durability in the series, you can safely go wild with whatever you want even on the hardest modes(FE6 being the only exception because if you break a legendary weapon before the end of Chapter 22 you can't access the final chapters).

This new system where weapons actually have more varied negatives and positives is much more interesting. The fact the Silver Sword puts you at risk of critical hits rather than being an across the board superior weapon that was always better than Steel makes me think this new system may have more strategic promise(not for definite but I don't think it can be dismissed so quickly).

I feel a lot of you are blinded by something that was never true about weapon durability. You guys should give this new system a chance before demonising it.

@Jock_Nerd I'd start with Awakening while you're waiting fir this to come out in the US. Awakening was my first game and I wasn't disappointed.

@Jock_Nerd I'd start with Awakening while you're waiting fir this to come out in the US. Awakening was my first game and I wasn't disappointed.

We won't have to memorize the magic triangle so that's good! I'm really excited to see some dark weapons.

@Yorumi Except it clearly was designed around the challenge mode. I've done the ranking on HHM and you can still field level 5-10 characters between chapters 25 and the penultimate chapter because the weak unpromoted throwaway enemies are still around in large numbers. In most other Fire Emblem games these characters would be slaughtered because the enemies would be largely powerful promoted enemies.

Also an infinite durability version of a weapon isn't the same as an infinite supply. Fire Emblem Genealogy's infinitely repairable weapons and easy source of money through an Arena where you can't actually die doesn't mean that your whole party has an infinite supply Silver Swords from the prologue there's just that one Sigurd gets then and one in chapter 3's store for the whole game.

Durability isn't the only way to limit weapon use, if there's only 1 or 2 of a rare weapon(even non-legendary) it can be balanced through the fact only 1 or 2 characters can wield them at a time. Compare Genealogy's approach that to my earlier example of FE(GBA) where everyone and their grandma can afford to be packing multiple Silver and Killer weapons each, durability didn't really make that more strategic did it?

I'm not going to bother with that "Anti-Consumer" schlock you're pushing because people always complain when they try something new with their series to the mechanics to the pricing. I want good games that are worth what I pay first and foremost and if they think they can deliver games that worth what they're asking it wouldn't matter whether they're selling one, two, three,etc. I think I'd quit gaming if I came to the point that I cared that more about the fact there's two versions before whether either or both of those versions were worth it to me.

I was shocked at first, but I'm confident they can make this work.

I agree that the change is bad for strategy, but I was never good at deciding when was the best time to use that 3 use weapon, so it's good for me.

The slight weapon triangle change doesn't really bug me, except insofar as the fact that it means we still have the stupid Archanea magic system that nobody likes.... Goshdarnit, just give us back the GBA Magic Triangle!

@vitalemrecords lol

reserving judgement until the game(s) is in my hands.

Interesting, because magic and arrows have always had their strengths, they just weren't formalized in the triangle approach of the main weapons (and as the article mentions, some installments have had a magic triangle, which I liked). Bows have always been strong against any flying enemies but weak against heavily armored enemies, while magic has tended to be strong against heavily armored enemies, but weak against pegasus knights in particular (but oddly enough, not wyvern knights).

I do like when they change these things up, because it makes each release unique, and re-instates a learning curve for the game. Otherwise you walk into each new installment already knowing all of the game's mechanics, and it becomes just a level pack.

Well that's stupid

After reading the title, I'd say oh my god, that's too bad. But after reading the content, I think maybe that's not that bad: or maybe it's a good idea. However, it's important to play the game or try the demo myself. Whatever, already pre-order the game so hopefully I'll not get disappointed.

So items don't have limited use anymore? That means that I can use a weapon as many times as I want, it never breaks? Makes things quite easier I guess.