Topic: Metroid Prime Trilogy

There are definite STRONG rpg elements in Oblivion. I'd call it an Action RPG but meh....semantics. Maybe more RPG than action.

You can indeed avoid enemies in Prime, but you can avoid enemies in all FPS games. Or, hey, all games that don't require each screen to be cleared of enemies before you advance.

Your point about viewing the gun as a "tool" is kind of why I'm classifying it as an FPS. In an FPS, the gun is your main tool. You have a certain number of things to accomplish, and firing the gun accomplishes all or most of them. Whereas in Zelda, the sword is arguably your main tool, but you hardly have to use it, and it's not a factor in most of the puzzles. The games don't revolve around sword use, whereas I'll argue that the MP games DO revolve around the arm cannon.

Your point about Fallout 3 being considered a first person RPG gets to the crux of the issue, I think; things are what you perceive them to be. We apply labels to things so that we can simply them in conversation, but with the rare exception in today's gaming climate, nothing actually fits into rigid classifications anymore. (Look at games like Portal, or Henry Hatsworth for other examples of genre-destruction.) So I may well see an FPS in MP (for reasons I've listed) and you see an FPA (for reasons you've mentioned), and we're both playing the game, and we're both enjoying it, and neither of us are really wrong. Heck, somebody could look at it and call it Tool-Collection Platform Explorer, and that would be fine too.

The tags are pretty much meaningless. I don't see nearly enough reason to separate MP from the rest of the FPS canon, but if others do, then that's okay. I think I'm just opposed to subdividing genres in the first place. I like genres best when they act like mirages; from a distance you know what to expect, but examine any of them more closely and God knows what you'll actually get. If we're trying to get much more specific than that, we should take a page from Adam's book, and just refer to them by game titles.

...that was long. I'm not disagreeing with you, if that's not clear yet, but I'm pretty interested in the discussion.

Yes, the gun is the main item in an FPS, but its only function is to destroy - which is why I wouldn't necessarily call it a tool, but a weapon. In Prime, it works more as a tool would. It has multiple non-destructive functions that work to solve puzzles and such.

In a shooter, your main goal is to fight and destroy. There's almost never any puzzle-solving or adventuring. However, in Prime, you sometimes go for long periods without fighting at all. There's a large emphasis on puzzle solving, platforming, and exploration, which is why I'd classify it as a First Person Action-Adventure game, rather than a shooter.

But I think Adam hit the nail on the head - its true genre is "Metroid".

Yay, I won!

Not to drag it out, as we've reached consensus more or less, but games like Bioshock, Half-Life 2 and others place a large emphasis on puzzle solving and exploration as well, and they use the whole "learn the story obliquely as you go" thing, too.

I think my problem with wanting to give MP its own genre is that it's somewhat of an insult to the other FPS games that do the same things as well, or even better. FPS isn't a limited genre, and the implication that it can't handle puzzle solving or exploration without morphing into something else entirely is kind of unfair. The FPS genre is growing up, that's all. It's learning how to broaden its horizons.

I think that's a good thing, and obviously you do, too. (We've come a long way from Wolfenstein, baby.) But the implication is either that FPS can't include complex problem solving, or that games like Half-Life and Bioshock DON'T involve complex problem solving, and neither of those sits comfortably with me.

I haven't played BioShock or Half-Life, so I can't respond directly to your points.

However, Metroid, no matter what the camera view, is Metroid (so far, at least). I think all of the games have more or less the same gameplay - Prime introduced the series to 3D, and they decided to put it into the first person view, but they didn't really change the gameplay. And if I'm not mistaken, Super Metroid is generally classified as an Action/Adventure game (I mean, come on, if you compare Super Metroid to Contra III the differences are more than clear).

In short, I don't think that the changing of the camera view from 2D to the first person is enough to say that the Metroid genre has changed from Action/Adventure to Shooter, when nearly all of the gameplay elements have remained intact.

Edit: And I didn't edit this!

I disagree. The 3D ones are fairly distinct from their origins, especially 3, which cuts out a lot of the exploration and open-worlded-ness.

@Adam: I actually do agree with you about 3, though I think Prime 1 stays pretty close to its roots. The Prime games are a bit more linear than the 2D ones, though the basic gameplay remains the same.

I felt a lot of Super Metroid in Prime 1, but yeah 3 was its own thing entirely--kind of took lessons from Zero Misison/Fusion in hand-holdingness.

Prime 1 told you where to go in those (usually) unnecessary transmissions just like Zero Mission. Secrets are all much more obvious than in the 2D games. All the areas you can bomb have noticeable cracks and look similar to other bombable areas. (Oh, and I almost forgot the atrocious platforming, but I hear that is much easier in the Trilogy edition thanks to being able to look while moving.)

Don't get me wrong. I loved Prime 1, and I loved Fusion and Zero Mission, but I don't think the series has stayed the same since Super. No series has survived the 2D to 3D jump unchanged in some fundamental way, though Metroid is perhaps one of the closest there is, certainly for Nintendo's action series.

And I may not have felt Super Metroid vibes while playing Prime, but I definitely did while watching Other M. Vibrant colors; smaller, closed rooms; third-person action... Mmmmm...

If you remember, this trend held fast between Zelda 1 and Zelda: Link to the Past--LttP used wall-weakness marks and the like to indicate bombing, whereas Zelda 1 was more of a crapshoot bomb-a-wall-get-lucky (similar to the bomb-every-reachable-with-wall tile in old metroids, vs. indicators on Prime). I didn't feel LttP was any less Zelda--I feel these were added cause there was simply more game and there would be too much "wallage" to search with the old scheme. Can you imagine bombing every single surface of every 3D room everywhere in a Prime game? It'd be absurd. I must admit I had a hell of a time with the platforming my first run through Prime 1, but that was due more to my getting-to-grips-with-analog-sticks-at-the-time. My hard playthrough, the platforming was cake. I guess the most resonant Super-Metroid vibe feeling was the introductory area, followed by the mostly-lifeless introduction to the planet and descent into the Chozo area...plus I felt they did a good job musically, in setting a similar tone. To be honest, I forgot about the "go here" indications on Prime til you just reminded me...can't you turn them off? I think I must have done that my first playthrough (or else why didn't it come to mind?), and I knew where everything was already for the most part on my second (not to mention this Wii-remade third )

But yeah. Other M was originally titled Metroid: Orgas M...I'm mad they changed it as its still eliciting its intended reaction.

EDIT: The addition of the X-Ray scope kinda "cracked the walls" in Super Metroid in my experience.

They're first-person adventure games.
EDIT: Er, I was beaten.

Swerdy, I understand the reason for making the secrets more obvious in the 3D games, but like with lots of 2D-3D transitions, I feel this is solving a problem that the developer created for itself by trying to add a third dimension where there should not be one. Retro's solution was first-person perspective and ginormous rooms, neither of which fits Metroid's style. Other M looks to rectify this. With this perspective and more localized space (and this is going from trailer alone... I'm prepared to have been greatly misled) it should be reasonable to have secrets marked by more subtle clues or -- in the case of unnecessary items -- no clues at all. Whether this will be the design Project M runs with, only time will tell. Fingers crossed.

The Link to the Past approach to bombing was always greatly disappointing. There is absolutely no thrill of discovery. It becomes a pointless exercise. Why not put a giant red X with a sign next to it reading "X marks the spot, wink wink, nudge nudge"? Admittedly, I know many think Zelda and Metroid (NES) were excessive in their bombing for secret paths. I liked it and generally found enough hints or patterns not to be utterly lost, but even if that was too much for most, I feel like a middle ground could have been reached. We're given two polar opposites to choose from: one design that feels to many like searching in the dark, and one design that renders the bombing a mere formality, one extra button to press before going through what is basically any other door due to the hugely obvious tell.

EDIT: Oh yes, about the hints in Prime 1, yes, you can toggle them off. I realized this when I was almost done the game, so I still imagine it as an integral feature of the game, and it bothers me despite having the capability to ignore it.

I rarely needed the hints, by the time they arrived I was already half way to my destination, sometimes right outside the door, having planned a careful route on the excellent 3D map. I love navigating in 3D, so was in my element when a bit more was asked of me, especially the underwater bit.

It says Thursday on that clock in the corner of the screen, which means I'm getting closer. Yay!

I always thought Metroid Prime was a racing game....

hahahahhahhahah! sory for you retro studio's but you cant help work on metriod other M

Double you, tea, eff?

No no. It's the twin sibling of Optimus Prime. He's more than meets the eye.

He sounds like an idiot if he uses "waggle" where it's not a valid argument. I'm not sure why he was expecting some major difference in the reissue. Maybe he wanted some "Star Wars Special Edition" type differences -- where musical numbers are added, and Greedo shoots first.

This is the first time I'm playing these Prime games, and I have to say so far I'm impressed. This level of immersion in this game is above and beyond anything I've ever played before.. Bumping this thread because I don't want any spoilers by talking in the other one..