@BlueOcean
"About Scarlett they have hinted that it will be backwards compatibility, nothing else."
Oooh....
If Xbox Scarlett can play ALL Old Xbox + Xbox 360 + Xbox 1 Regardless its region + enable to use Kinect, i might to buy it since i only care with Dance Dance Revolution Ultramix 1 - 4 from Old Xbox , Dance Dance Revolution Universe 1 - 3 + Dance Master (use Kinect) from Xbox 360, Portal Knights & The Sims 4 from Xbox 1.
@Dezzy@BlueOcean i think you guys are missing the concept of the end of generations though. Sonyt made noises about it back early gen, but i don't think they have the guts to shake up the business model since it's been so successful this gen. But for ms the x opened up the chance to stop playing by Sonys rules and do their own thing. I don't have Spencer's quotes handy but you can search this thread backa month or so ago when grumble andi were talking about it and i pasted a few.
The general vibe was the idea of moving beyond generations. Many compare it to the cell phone model. An iphone 8 didn't stop running new appps because they're made for a 10, they just slowly become too obsolete. Similar for pc gaming. And that was going to be valves console but it never got off the ground.
The idea for this would be making the xbox more pc like. Instead of year generations realise bi annual new models. Ms would be the company in the best position to try that model (and they're not the first to talk about it) they've been changing the rules a lot lately (game pass, x1x) and it's been working. Plus, now that this is the first time consoles are x86 it's the first time it's viable, it would be inline with ms overall windows strategies, and, in the hardware division inline with the current changes to the Surface strategy. They stopped numbering them after surface pro 4. It's just "surface pro" now no matter which annual revision or performance level. Xbox could, and arguably should follow that same strategy. "Tick tock"could work there. New games run on current and 1 or 2 previous models, always following one behind.
50 50. Phil's statements make it very very clear that's how they WANT it to work. The question is with the cpu in x, COULD it work or was that a poor choice for their desired future plans?
Guaranteed, at a minimum, the x will at least offer the "x2 lite" feature set as a streaming console (for whatever that's worth).
Ultimately Microsoft doesn'twant to sell xboxes, they want to sell the platform, subscriptions, and the Microsoft store. Generations work against that goal rather that for it. The current digital age, x86, operating strategy overall, bucking sony rules that they've battered competition with for decades, and the unique "almost s new console with onlya2.5 year shelf life" if the x make thisa prime moment to make that shift, and phils been relatively forward that that's a model they like to have.
@NEStalgia But that is your interpretation, not what they said. Spencer literally said that Scorpio games would run on S, and that has become a reality. Some time later when asked again, he left that decision up to the developers, because Microsoft wants developer to feel free. Do you seriously think that developers will be forced to develop games for Xbox One and Scarlett if they are free to make games for X which is a super-powered Xbox One? There aren't any developers that have made games exclusively for X. However, there are some 3DS games that only run on New 3DS, more than you think (I have some), soon Yoshi's Woolly World port too. In short, Microsoft doesn't force developers to make cross-platform games but the newest console will run older software.
This is what you have to realise: Microsoft is not going to make an enhanced version of X. It's obvious, the CPU in X can't get any more enhancements and Scarlett will have a brand-new CPU. It's logical. Besides, I think that you are mixing up architecture and CPU compatibility concepts, while at the same time you correctly acknowledge how it works on PC. Is the newer Surface PC or tablet underpowered? No. In short, Scarlett won't have an enhanced Xbox One X CPU.
It is true that generations have changed but it applies to Sony and Nintendo, with PS4 Pro and an upgraded Switch likely in the works, not to mention Wii U and Switch belong to the same generation... And what do you say about New 3DS and its exclusive games? Nintendo has 3DS, Wii U, New 3DS, Switch and very likely an upgraded Switch soon, all together in the same "generation". So the generations are not as they used to be and Switch even uses a different architecture while PS4 Pro and Xbox One X don't. In short, generations have changed for all, don't you think that there will be a PS5 Pro? In my opinion classic generations died with PS4 Pro (enhanced PS4), Xbox One X (enhanced Xbox One) and Switch (enhanced hybrid Wii U in power terms with different architecture). In short, generations don't apply to consoles anymore.
Will we be able to play Scarlett games on Xbox One S now that everybody knows (except you) that Scarlett will feature a new CPU? Perhaps, downscaled and downgraded. It is possible, but perhaps it's not worth it. It reminds me of the cross-generation games like GTA V or the Assassin's Creed IV. Was it possible? YES! Were they much better on the newer consoles? YES! And that was more challenging because 360 and PS3 have PowerPC architecture and PS3 is extremely complex on top of that.
What we know for sure is that you'll be able to play Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One games on Scarlett. Microsoft said that they like the two consoles concept, the basic (S) and the elite (X) consoles, and we assumed that when the next Xbox is released, X would become the basic one although we are forgetting about the streaming cheap Xbox that I think that will be cheaper than X even in the future. In short, we know that the next Xbox will be backwards compatible but we don't know if and how its games will run on Xbox One S and X.
I hope that after this long text that you agree that there's nothing preventing Microsoft from making a beast again like Xbox, 360 and, relatively, X.
@BlueOceansigh somehow in this thread you always manage to misunderstand me
Instead of replying I'll just paste part of your own post:. "we know that the next Xbox will be backwards compatible but we don't know if and how its games will run on Xbox One S and X."
And
" we assumed that when the next Xbox is released, X would become the basic one"
This is precisely what my first post was saying to begin with
As for Phil's generational quotes, it was not his statements on x it Scarlett i was referring to but statements on broader generations and visions prior to Scarlett being named as such (as in weeks before...)
@NEStalgia I'm going to try and restrain myself from making another text wall...
I'm sorry, my friend, and no offense, but most of what I see in your comments concerning Scarlett, is assumption and (rather single-minded/single-faceted) personal interpretation. I'm sticking to my own conclusions so far, and I also agree with @BlueOcean.
For me, and many others, including most online media, what Phil Spencer said comes nowhere NEAR to being close to pointing towards iterative hardware with ties to the current gen. Well, other than the of course once again promised backward compatibility. But besides that given fact, Scarlett will be its own beast entirely.
Below, I'll just link to some sources, three of which articles, that combine and discuss rumors and facts that we know so far, and one video with an interview with the man himself, and all of those clearly tell a different story.
I think it's safe to say that you're quite alone in your views, and the 50/50 you see, is probably not going to happen. Scarlett should be seen as a completely separate, new generational, full-blown upgrade, that consists of a non-iterative console and a streaming device. Those two will replace the S and the X, and it will not be a situation where the X will more or less become the S of the next generation.
@ThanosReXXX fwiw i haven't paid attention toa single peep regarding anything about Scarlett. I haven't even heard the name Scarlett outside this thread. Everything I'm talking about is things Phil said in the months leading up to e3. Maybe they changed policy, maybe they didn't. If they did, that's a real shame. Going with sequential generations seems so silly now. But, that also is what my original comment wondered about, if that ideas was possible due to xs weak cpu.
At minimum though there's very high likelihood x would pick up streaming box function of the 2 lite. Heck s might.
@BlueOcean I still say is hasty to be so sure otherwise, and nothing in thanos video say otherwise. Unless game design becomes fundamentally different, which at this point remains unlikely due to pc support, they're like reason both machines can't operate in the same family. Id still not be surprised to see "xbox" or "xbox infinity" or something become the brand and all machines become like different year pcs. After all a gen 5 i5 still runs games a gen 7 i7 runs.
Frankly if they launched 1x with that new console fanfare like a new brand only for it to be the most expensive console since the disaster of ps3 phat only to kill it in 2.5 years (remember is not even a year old yet and is still the most expensive console) they're shooting themselves in the foot xbone style all over again. Most of us praised the move as possibly redefining how releases work. But if they're actually down to releasing an expensive premium product with that much hype knowingly asa disposable 2 year stopgap, nvidia style, i might become a Sony Pony after all
I still have faith they're not that stupid and x indeed has a role in the new ecosystem. If it turns out they are that dumb my opinion if the brand will be tremendously soured, and i doubt I'm alone.
Remember Sonys strategy from back in the psx area had been "go last, and whatever price they set, go $100 cheaper". Ms doing numbered gens still plays right to Sonys strategy. Nintendo broke that cycle and id thought ms had, too. Their losd if they haven't learned. So, up for some uncharted 5 coop in 2020?
@NEStalgia They CAN release Halo Infinite for Xbox One X and even S but that doesn't mean that the new console must be weaker because of that or have the same CPU as X! How hard is that to understand, for Zeus?
They can just downgrade the resolution, visual effects and CPU elements. For instance, Dead Rising had lower resolution and many fewer zombies on Wii.
Forget about your worries, firstly because you are wrong and secondly because we still have some years ahead for more X goodness and you are lucky to have the most powerful console since 2017 and for years to come! And all your Xbox One games are safe, you won't need to buy them again. That's the biggest investment, games.
@NEStalgia Depends when Xbox Scarlett comes out, a late 2020 release with XB1X not able to play Xbox Scarlett games probably wouldn't have much of a backlash. If anything the backlash would be the XB1X holding back Scarlett if supported (see the backlash about 3DS being supported after the Switch launch).
Spencer reiterated the company's commitment to industry-leading hardware.
Microsoft's commitment to set the benchmark for console gaming.
After shifting from PowerPC to x86-based architecture with Xbox One, we expect AMD GPU, GDDR6 memory with an accompanying CPU (no bottlenecks).
Xbox One and future Xbox use Windows 10 kernel like PC which means harmony with Xbox One games, applications and features plus support for Xbox and Xbox 360 games via backwards compatibility.
Launch: 2020 at the earliest (same as Digital Foundry's estimation).
@Grumblevolcano Yes, the same article suggests that there might be games currently in development that will launch for Xbox One while being enhanced for Scarlett, so support for Xbox One X wouldn't end abruptly, it could be similar to how it was between the last generation and the current one. That would give Xbox One over seven years of support and Xbox One X more than three while getting better versions than S.
@BlueOcean seriously how on Earth can you misunderstand me so often? . If i didn't know you and have plenty of lovely conversations with you otherwise id be convinced you were a troll from the Order of the Sliggy
You're saying exactly what I'm saying, and the things you're arguing against, i never said
The big thing in that scenario is that it wouldn't be "cross gen release on both platforms" like ps3 plus ps4 as separate skus,. but one disc/digital purchase that runs on both machines (with different settings)... Just like, you know, steam no matter if you have a beat up pc from 2012 or a new screaming ryzen, you just buy a game and it runs for the hardware as well as it can. That's the unification we pictured and Phil hinted at many times.
But i never said that should, could, or would impact what Scarlett is. That's a fictional argument you created
@Grumblevolcano but x wouldn't hold back Scarlett any more than the support of gtx 7xxx holds back modern pc games. Ie it doesn't. Generations have sucked for the whole industry. Publishers hate them (the costs of moving into low install base launches suck) retailers love them, but retail influence is waning fast in this industry. And ms is cloud first so that would be a win for them. That's part of the whole streaming push. Honestly i see the streaming xbox as a disastrous fail in the us. I really think the internet here will make that anything but an internet meme. But ms is really pushing that way it seems. Not generations. Even 2020 makes x look kinda bad. It was too expensive with too much "future is now" fanfare to not make it look bad if it's just a late gen stop Gap to be forgotten a few years later. If nothing else it sells the idea that buying xbox before the better late gen model is a bad idea. Things that were already said if miss gen bumps until sony made little user of pro and the idea of x forward compatibility was tempting (which, again, may still happen even in the streaming variant)
@BlueOcean og one support would hold back game design. X support would not. Such a missed opportunity if they blunder that. Nearly mattrick levels of blunder. The cpu is really the only thing keeping x from basically being a Scarlett anyway.
@NEStalgia I don't have even the slightest idea of how you can still turn what you've seen and read into information that seems to point to or support what you keep bringing up as a possible scenario.
They say the mind works in wondrous ways, but your mind is something different altogether, my friend...
All info I posted is from the aftermath of E3, so anything said in the months leading up to E3, is more or less null and void, if Phil Spencer himself hasn't mentioned it anymore, or has changed his stance on that.
And that apparently seems to have happened.
The most important takeaway, AGAIN, from the information that I linked to, is that the X1 is most definitely NOT going to be a part of the Scarlett family tree. How else would you explain the specific mention of the word "consoles" by Phil Spencer, on stage at E3, and besides that, the rather clear mention in the video and articles of the next Xbox going to set a new benchmark in console gaming?
A simple upgrade of the X1 isn't going to achieve that at ALL, and in the interview in the video, it is also mentioned that the CPU will have to be considerably upgraded, to become more of an equal partner in relation to the GPU. You had a point there, with the whole CPU being the weakest link, but other than that, I've seen or read nothing that comes even remotely close to what you keep mentioning.
I don't attach any value to old or obsolete information, so he might have said something in the past about wanting to have iterative/incremental upgrades, as the way to go forward, but from all the info that we have now, it is simply quite clear that Scarlett, although more than likely fully backward compatible with the entire catalog that is available on the Xbox One, including the older gen titles already made backward compatible, will still be something completely new, and the X is NOT going to be a part of the Scarlett label.
Simply put, the two consoles (or one console and one streaming box) will be the only two devices that will be a part of the Scarlett family tree. It'll of course still all be Xboxes, so in that regard, they will be related/family, but the X is not going to be the next S.
That just makes zero sense, both from a business and a marketing point of view. And Microsoft may be many things, and they've royally screwed up the launch of the Xbox One, but other than that, they're not going to make the mistake of tying the Scarlett devices to the previous gen console in any significant way, because that would cripple them in the process. (which also seems to be something that @Grumblevolcano thinks would happen otherwise)
I could still see a moderate amount of "forward compatibility" happening, but only on the X. Going a step further and also supporting the S, would probably be too much of a downgrade on titles from a console that is supposed to set a new benchmark in console gaming...
And perhaps needless to say, but if you say the X would become a stop-gap system in this scenario, then what is the Pro in the PS5 scenario? Seeing as that is also going to be released in 2020...
I think it's pretty fair to say that this bleak outlook of yours on that aspect of the discussion also holds little to no water.
And if they are going to considerably upgrade the CPU, and probably also improve upon GPU and memory, then tying Scarlett software to the X in larger or equal amounts, actually IS going to hamper/drag down Xbox Scarlett, because they would then constantly have to keep the "weaker" system in mind while developing games for Scarlett. I don't see how anyone could fail to understand that pretty simple and crystal clear fact.
Well, that's about all I want to say about it, so I'm out of the discussion from here on out, no offense.
I'm going to stick to my guns here anyway, simply because this is what is the most logical and likely scenario, no matter which way you look at it.
P.S.
How come I actually DO understand what @BlueOcean is saying, and why he's saying it?
Perhaps you should consider the possibility that it is actually you who is not making himself clear in this instance, because otherwise, we wouldn't still be on your case as much as we are.
Misunderstandings happen to all of us at times, and a solid discussion at times isn't bad either, but at some point, we must surely be able to get past the hurdle of continuously having to rehash everything that has already been said 20 comments ago...
But, having said all that: even if we do seem to disagree quite vehemently on this specific subject, you're still okay in my book, so don't get your boxers all twisted up in a knot over this...
Thanks! This thread needs to go back to Xbox One/360 stuff, so I thank @ThanosReXXX for understanding my last posts perfectly and my fan-mate @Banjos_Backpack for popping up. Thanks for bringing me more Banjo-Kazooie stuff!
Sometimes I think I know more about Rare and Banjo than the composer who sometimes look a bit stuck-up if I am honest. It's not that they don't care about Banjo-Kazooie, how can he say that? It is just that specifically that stupid new boss they have that has no idea about what Rare fans want and he doesn't have anything to do with Sea of Thieves either, so I hope he leaves soon.
Rare staff doesn't equal to Rare's new boss. Rare is the people that are working there since the 90s including Gregg Mayles and also the new talents that are working hard and have been busy with Sea of Thieves.
I trust the new Rare for a remake or new Banjo-Kazooie game visually after seeing Sea of Thieves, but as we have discussed we need Leigh Loveday on board. A remake is a remake after all and more than one studio could make it, but a new Banjo-Kazooie needs Rare and Leigh Loveday.
"Like, Killer Instinct was done by that other studio, I forgot what they’re called".
You see? He has no idea. Killer Instinct was developed by Double Helix Games while Rare was busy with Kinect 2.0, developing games and helping other studios to develop games. On top of that, Rare helped developing Killer Instinct and Iron Galaxy Studios replaced Double Helix Games.
His comparison with Mario + Rabbids not being developed by Nintendo are ridiculous. Firstly, it's not a Mario platformer. Secondly, Mario games have no relevant script and when they do is quite dull. Thirdly, apparently Ubisoft is funnier than Nintendo.
Grant is a good composer but he has little idea about everything else. It's like he lived on his own isolated planet.
@DarthNocturnal It's actually a good thing so people have time to finish Fortnite season 5 before it ends. I'm fine with Forsaken Shores being delayed, I still haven't done older stuff, but it looks like it's going to be the biggest expansion yet, and the AI skeleton ships are already a huge addition to the game.
@Banjos_Backpack The new boss started at Rare when Sea of Thieves was already in development, that's what I mean. Yes, you are right, there was an idea of creating an online community, Rare talks about it in interviews, they wanted to do that. Spencer said that they didn't expect Sea of Thieves to be as successful and Rare has commented that they haven't suffered much pressure under Microsoft except for having to support Kinect 2.0 and help other developers with it in the Mattrick era. Now Rare is happy because their game is popular and Microsoft must be happy too because it's part of Gold. Spencer also commented that Game Pass is successful and it doesn't lowered game sales which is great for them and also for us because game property is still a thing and the two things live together.
I agree, now is the time for a Banjo-Kazooie game after Ratchet, Crash, Spyro… And yes, working with Playtonic makes a lot of sense. Even if Super Lucky's Tale gets a sequel and I think it's cool as a Mario-like thing and I enjoyed it, Xbox needs a strong 3D platformer exclusive and nothing better for it than Banjo. Xbox is diverse and have all kind of games and players, so it needs Banjo back, especially now that they want to have more first-party games.
@DarthNocturnal The Switch version gave the multiplayer new life, even when the gyro update came it was active. I couldn't find matches not long before the paid online went live so the online likely fully killed it off. I plan to finally go through the single player after I've 100% completed Torna.
@Grumblevolcano Have you noticed if there are fewer players on the other Switch games since Nintendo Online is not free but for the first week? Mario Kart 8, Splatoon 2... Whatever.
@Banjos_Backpack Yes, Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie remade is my dream... And then a proper overdue Banjo-Threeie… That would be fantastic, indeed.
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