Topic: Paper Mario: The Origami King

@rjejr
So did I! Lost my 2nd practice battle lol. Then I tried it again and made it through all 10. For level 1 at least. These puzzles are harder than they seem.

I got nothin for ya, btw. You took my idea and it didn’t work (Fire flower). Seems you’re two steps ahead of me already!

@Quarth
The timer is a necessity. Without it people would stay in battles as long as it took for them to figure it out, which in some cases could be 5-10 minutes, or never. Battles would become a chore super quick. It’s better to just accept that sometimes you can’t figure them out and so you’re lining them up the best you can. And that is the reason I feel this battle system works. Because you can’t figure them all out. If you could, it would be boring. But the fact that half my battles I can’t get them lined up perfectly is what makes it interesting and allows the enemy to do damage. It’s a battle of wits, and you have to take the L’s along with the W’s.

For regular battles I wouldn’t sweat it anyways. It’s not a big deal if you don’t get it lined up perfectly. You’ll just take a little damage and then it’s your turn again. But for boss battles, if you really want to ponder, just screencap the board and go into your album to study it. You won’t get to test out turning and sliding so it’s more like chess where you have to envision the moves ahead of you. But that balances out the fact you have no time limit to study it. Perfect case where the system features of quick screenshots and very quickly and easily accessing those screenshots can actually positively impact your game experience by enhancing your game experience. Same applies when a code I need to enter somewhere pops on screen in Trails of Cold Steel 3. I just screencap it. The time comes for me to enter it and it doesn’t let me go into the menu to check it again, I can just check the screenshot.

@JaxonH I may be 2 steps ahead of you but I feel hours behind you. Still have no idea what that big underground door was in the vid you posted to twitter. I didn't play any more after losing that practice battle, it was time for lunch. And my hands were starting to cramp up after about 90 minutes w/ those way too small joycon. But I like the folded arms motion and the rumble feedback so...

If I ever get that campfire lit I'l let ya know, as non-spoilery as possible.

@JaxonH I like the way you see it. Will try that mindset.

Man, the first boss fight is tough...

After playing through the first few hours and destroying the Red Streamer, I appreciate the charm and humour they've tried to inject into the story and the world. But those regular battles though... I didn't think they'd be that bad, but the more I fight, the less appealing it is to play. Playing for nothing but coins is not appealing, and the lack of attack options for Mario doesn't help either. Does anyone know if Mario gains more attack options later?

At least boss fights are engaging. The fights with the Earth Vellumental and Coloured Pencils were fun, but knowing boss fights will be few and far between each chapter means I gotta run away from those annoying regular enemies to make progress (ironic for an RPG game.)

Even Arlo, the ambassador of “Not My Paper Mario” likes the game.

@TJWorks. Just hammer and boots, items like POW blocks, Vellumental attacks and using the crowd. The crux of the battle system lies in solving the puzzles, and the puzzles rely on certain attacks being in a 2x2 grid or 1x4 line. You can also kill certain enemies without even battling them after chapter 1.

Also, you’re supposed to be running away from regular enemy attacks. This isn’t an RPG. You should only be battling when you have to in order to progress, or when you need coins or confetti (which, you’ll find out soon enough, is a LOT).

Looks like the only thing he dislikes is the only thing I am concerned about. Lol. Interestingly enough, I kinds liked the different cards, at least if I was forced to do the battles I could use interesting moves. I do think this game would be way better if you could just stomp or hammer hit the baddies in the level. Leaving the battle mechanic for the level bosses only.

Its strange, it seems like the thing people usually dislike is the battle screen...I wonder why they use it at all?

This is my concern as well. In Paper Mario Color Splash I kept running away from regular enemies because I hated the battle screen thing. I really liked the game otherwise but couldn't get through it because the battles were too tedious for me to continue. I'm trying to decide if I should pick up Origami King or not...I just wish I could stomp the baddies within the level.

I should add I really dislike RPG games. Selecting a move then watching your character do that move seems so dumb to me. I'd rather just do the move...

This game gets better and better. I’m at a Japanese styled theme park right now. And it just suddenly hit me- I’m head over heels in love with this game. It’s all I think about, I don’t want to stop playing it (stayed up til midnight playing last night, been playing through the day today, and when I’m not playing it I’m Google searching videos and discussions about it).

I honestly didn’t think a game would top Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition or Trails of Cold Steel 3 as the game that defines 2020 for me. But I think Paper Mario just might do it. Turns out, this IS the Paper Mario game I’ve been wanting... (of course, I still love the old style too, and would love to see TTYD remastered on Switch too, offering the best of both, but frankly I feel like this game is satisfying me every bit as much as a port of TTYD would, if not more so).

So many clever puzzle elements in the game, in every facet, from combat to exploration, even to requirements for progression. And that’s what really elevates this game in the same ways Zelda and Metroid get elevated. The puzzle elements take a good adventure game and make it something much more engaging.

Btw, just got a badge that makes your confetti turn into pink and white cherry blossom petals. Just a cosmetic thing, but I love it all the same. Also, the original designs for characters in this area is some of the best I’ve seen since Thousand Year Door.

And a reminder, try setting the HD rumble to “high” in the settings and use split joycon. It makes basic actions like swinging the hammer an experience. Even jumping and landing. The higher you fall from, the more intense the feedback becomes. It was really hard to notice on the medium setting though. I love good, proper haptic feedback. So glad they put the settings for it as an option.

Despite concerns and asinine comments made by Mr. Tanabe just before Origami King's release, I did end up buying this game after some contemplation while at work. Around 2 hours in, I don't have much to complain about and I'm enjoying the experience so far. The biggest issue I have had is that the tutorial overstayed for me personally and it would have been nice if there was an option to skip those moments or speed them up. I've at least played every Paper Mario game and watched an Origami King stream for a few hours the night before the official release. Developers making games that are a part of series shouldn't assume that everyone is a newcomer and have options available for more seasoned players.

I'm waiting until I'm further into the game to give an opinion on the game's turn-based battles; however, I do enjoy the game's live battles. Those battles to me have a better chance of working really well for the action adventure genre assigned to this game. Turn-based battles usually are only ideal for a RPG game, so I will say it is an odd decision to have them in this game. As I move further away from the tutorial portion of the game, I should have a better idea on the game's battle system.

Yeah it does strike as odd that they used turn based combat for the game.

I don’t have the game myself, but from what I’ve been able to gather from the handful of reviews and people I’ve seen play it, the turn based combat starts off mediocre but gets noticeably better later on. seems like an odd decision to pace it that way

Once you get more hp. You don’t need to battle all Goombas, you can just hammer them. It gets better but I shouldn’t spoil it

Just found out you can get tanooki tails, Fire hammers and ice hammers in addition to POW blocks. That’s rad.

@status-204.
That’s an incredibly unfounded accusation. I literally just made a post within the last 12 hours in the PC gaming thread about a game I don’t like (in fact, THREE GAMES I didn’t like). But given people typically buy games that they are interested in before they buy, it makes sense that the majority of games a person plays are in fact games they like. And that will vary by degree. Some games I like more than others. You don’t see me raging about Clubhouse Games being GotY. Neither do you see me raging about Animal Crossing, neither do you see me raging about Tokyo Mirage Sessions. All games I like but to a much lesser extent (clearly not enough to keep playing them). You don’t hear me raging about Bloodstained Curse of the Moon 2, or Mr. Driller Land, or Cross Code. Because these are games I played for 30 minutes and decided they weren’t for me. You don’t hear me saying Catherine Full Body is one of the best games released all year, that’s a game I genuinely like. And those are all games released just in the last few weeks that I don’t like, or like but to a much lesser extent.

In fact, I made it crystal clear there’s only TWO other games I’ve played this year that are on the same level as this game. Just two. You know how many games I’ve played this year? Well over 50. And yet, only two of them I deem on the same level as this one. So the idea that I love every game as much as this one is absolutely preposterous.

Furthermore, I literally just made a post 3 days ago saying I felt it was a 7.5/10 when I started playing, and that has changed as I’ve played more because the game has earned it, because it’s just that good. I love it now, and I make no apology for it.

I’m tired of people trying to marginalize, discredit and suppress the opinions of others just because it’s inconvenient or goes against the narrative they want others to believe.

So what's the verdict on color splash Vs Origami king specifically? I enjoyed color spash mostly but the battle system with the cards i found to be rather boring. No complaints about anything else though.

Never played Color Splash (well, not enough to form any kind of opinion) so I can’t say.

But from what I’ve heard, not having a card system or inventory based attacks is a huge improvement. Core attacks are permanent, but you can buy special, stronger attacks at item shops. These are also better than one time use attacks. You can pay the battle audience to help out- you hold the Y button to pay coins and the longer you hold it, the more coins you pay and the better their help will be. There are also Vellumental attacks you can do sometimes. The battle system is fun, IMO. Lining the enemies up engages you mentally, so that damage is earned through wit. The better you line them up within the time allotted the more enemies you’ll do damage to, up to 4 per round.

I don’t know whether you’ll end up liking or not and I don’t think anyone has a crystal ball that can predict whether another person will like something. But if you’re asking whether it’s better than the battle system in CS, the general consensus is yes. The battle system is actually entertaining, your HP/strength increases as you progress to where you can also kill lower leveled enemies on the field without battling, and there are also paper mache enemies that are battled in real time on the field. You fight for coins, which later in the game, battling becomes the overwhelming source of. In the beginning they shower you with coins outside of battle, but chapter 2 onwards you‘ll need to battle to afford everything. Also confetti gets more scarce later on so it’s always nice getting a refill when you can. Overall it’s a pretty good system, I think.

And, the game is otherwise good enough that, even those who aren’t fond of the battle system still generally feel like the game is worth playing regardless and give a hearty recommendation, such as stated in the NintendoLife review. I disagree with them about the battle system, which I myself have grown to love (that could change over time- we’ll see if I’ve grown tired of it by the end of the game, but so far, I’m 3 streamers in and still loving it), but the fact they still recommend the game even despite not being head over heels for the battle system is a compelling statement, I think.

Sounds like I'll still enjoy it. It doesn't look like we'll ever be going back to the battle system of the first two games but i can always replay those. In fact i got all nostalgic and decided to play the original again. Still as classic and fun as ever but i remember even that first game got criticized for being too simple. People were calling it Baby's first RPG. I Think i only ever died on the secret bosses like the giant koopa or the one at the Dojo in the first town.

Ya, the RPG mechanics were simple. But it was still fun- I really enjoyed it. I’ve only played a bit of the first game, and while it seemed fine it was more... dated. Thousand Year Door is where it’s at. I love that game. But I do want to go back and play the first one at some point. None of the games are too hard, but they’ve all had enough challenge to remain engaging. At least the ones I’ve played.

If I’m being perfectly honest though, by comparison I don’t like TTYD battle system any more than TOK. Yes, it had XP for basic progression like HP (Origami King takes a Zelda/Metroid approach and hides those upgrades behind exploration, some are scripted but some are hidden and can easily be missed), but in totality, I think they’re about equally engaging. I seek battles out about the same in both games. I don’t see battles as being as much of a chore in either game. I mean, they kinda are, but I never really mind much in TTYD because you gain XP, and I never really mind much in TOK because it’s just fun to solve the puzzle. I also didn’t like how the audience could damage you in TTYD. It meant having to constantly keep your eye on the audience and that became tiresome. Was a great idea and a lot of people seem to praise it, but if I’m being honest, I just didn’t like that aspect.

One of the things TOK has really nailed in bringing the series back to form, IMO, is the characters. Now, it’s not as good as TTYD in that respect. It’s just not. But it’s such an improvement over the last couple entries. The partner characters are fantastic, Olivia is possibly the best character in the entire series, and there’s a lot more unique character designs than I expected. Shotgun Studios has 3 amazing characters, as did Autumn Mountain, and even Whispering Woods had those talking trees and Grandsappy. I’m sure there’s even more in store as well. And the Toad designs can get super cute sometimes. Most are just different colors but sometimes you’ll see one with a napsack or google eye glasses or what have you. It’s enough to spice things up and make them stand out here and there. And the dialog is amazing.

@JaxonH
Ignore him, he's been trolling this thread for some reason.

In my opinion Oragami King is the best post SPM game. Ie better than SS and CS. It doesn't hold a candle up to PM64 and TYD though.

In relation to specific CC vs OK comparisions.

Both games look amazing. Asthetically very colourful. In both the battles don't have a real purpose, however there is no limited amount of attacks in OK like there was in CS. Your bought hammers and boots in OK can break but that's a minor issue as you can easily buy more and you only use them when you really need to.

The boss battles in OK are much better. They take come real thought to win. They are more pozzle and less raw combat.

Finding a million cloned toads exists in both games.

If you liked CS outside of battle (I did also), you'll like OK also. The battle system for general enemies in OK is very repetative and very different. Ie having to rush to win phase one so you can one shot phase 2 does get old kind of quick. However doing the battles is still kind of fun. You are not strategically avoiding battles like in CS to save attack cards for specific tougher battles.

TLDR - if you liked CS, you'll also like OK.

So, having purchased Paper Mario: The Origami King at launch and having completed the first major chunk of the game (defeated the red banner boss), I have probably six or so hours in the game now, and I'd like to briefly discuss my experiences with it. Most of what I talk about won't be new to people, and I don't care if I change minds on it or not, but this is coming from the perspective of someone who has played (and hated) Sticker Star, and who also enjoyed The Thousand Year Door on the Gamecube.

PRESENTATION, MUSIC, AND ENVIRONMENTS

This is a flat out gorgeous-looking game. And has often been mentioned, the rudimentary paper look of previous games has given way to something more akin to the PS Vita game Tearaway, where your environments are ACTUALLY paper and they're finely detailed to look like they're made out of actual materials like cardboard and whatnot. Papery character outlines will crinkle after they've been folded up. The concept of origami is a new one to the world of Paper Mario, and is treated as a form of body horror for the characters.

Environments themselves are massive and detailed. I feel like I've been able to enter almost every building I've happened across so far (unless they're locked because you need to find their owner), and they all feel lived in and usually rewarding to visit. You'll enter buildings as shortcuts to find chests or get to enemies. Paper NPCs will be hiding in closets from their origami oppressors. Scope-wise, the locations are far larger than anything in Sticker Star or TTYD (whose environment's feel very basic and hallway-esque in comparison). Towns and field locations will often have tons of secrets hidden in them, and are laid out in a way that encourages the player to constantly explore them.

Musically, so far, this game has been pretty strong. Much moreso than previous Paper Mario game I've played. Especially battle themes.

I also really like the remix of Peach's Mario 64 castle theme in this game. And the weird vocal musical number that happens, like, an hour or two into the game.

NON-BATTLE GAMEPLAY

When you're running around these large environments, there are a few different things to do.
The most obvious addition is the fact that confetti is everywhere in this game, and you'll need to constantly be collecting it to fill up your confetti bag so that you can fill up the holes you encounter throughout the environments. You'll encounter simple environmental puzzles to solve in order to find chests that contains collectibles. You'll encounter different minigame activities (the most memorable of which so far was the card matching game I needed to complete to unlock a starman, which I then use to cross a thorny path to reach a chest). And you'll be finding tons and tons of hidden toads.

Running around looking for toads sounds horrible, like Sticker Star nonsense. But... it's really not. It's fun. Part of that is just how much variety there is in terms of how you find them. ANYTHING can be a toad in this game. Various animals in your environment can be toads. Toads can hide under rocks and behind walls. Fish you catch can be toads (oh, yeah, there's fishing in this game! that wasn't in either of the previous games I played in the series). Things you buy can be toads. Sometimes it's just a matter of running up to something and hammering it to reveal the toad. Sometimes they're simply hidden. Sometimes there's an environmental puzzle required to catch them.

Some toads you find will be important and run back to town to open shops and services (so far, I've unlocked an item/weapon shop, a museum, a couple of accessory vendors, and a battle center where you can practice your timing in battle, and which also unlocks various items that will help the player on their adventures, including one that clues them in when there's a hidden toad in the area. Others will join your audience in battles, and, for a price, will help you in various ways.

Finding toads awards you toad points, which you can use to unlock art pieces at the museum. The museum also hosts 3D models you can find in chests throughout the environment, origami toad models you unlock throughout the game, enemy models more generally, music tracks from the game (which requires the player to fill in all of those holes located throughout the world, as I alluded to earlier), etc. I don't know if there's a larger reward to completing the museum at the end of the game, but, rather like in Animal Crossing, I'm finding the gradual development of my museum to be reward enough to consistently engage with the environments.

And there's so much to engage with, considering nearly everything in this game feels like it can be collected or reward the player in some way. It's all a bit skinnerian, of course, but it works well in the context of this game.

THE BATTLE SYSTEM

So, as people are well aware of by now, there's no XP system in the game. Battles award you with confetti and coins. This has been a sticking point for a lot of people, since they feel like this removes the incentive to battle, and... I don't know how I feel about that. You'll be spending money for a LOT of things in this game, including progressing the plot (via buying items, giving money to characters, etc.), buying accessories (think of a more streamlined version of TTYD's badge system), plying toads in your audience with money to help during battles, feeding money into a timer during battles to give you more time to line up rings properly, etc. This latter one I don't usually do during unscripted fights, though, since you stand to lose more money than you make that way. I guess there's not really any incentive to grind in this game, but I'm not finding that to be a problem so far, considering a LOT of the fights in this game are scripted anyway, and considering, even in TTYD, XP rewards level off quickly enough that I was quickly avoiding most non-scripted battles in that game as well. There are a number of RPGs where there's almost never any reason to battle enemies in the wild, like The Witcher 3, but it didn't destroy those games for me.

The reason people typically cite wanting a reason to battle, I assume, is because they're afraid the battles aren't fun at all. Now, maybe I'll feel differently later, but so far I'm liking this ring system a lot more than the "jump on an enemy's head; guard; wash, rinse, and repeat" system in TTYD. It's far less repetitive, at least once the game lets go of your hand, and stops giving you stupidly simple arrangements of enemies. There's actual thought that goes into fighting the enemies in this game. And, unlike Sticker Star and (apparently) Color Splash, these aren't driven by consumable items. Instead, it feels like a more interactive version of a JRPG with a grid system, like Trails in the Sky, where you want to try to hit as many enemies as possible with an attack. The primary difference is that you're arranging the enemies instead of changing your position on the grid.

Of course, this game does TTYD one better insofar as, as a certain point, in an Earthbound-ian twist, you'll actually be able to just hammer weak enemies in the environments and avoid the ring battles with them entirely. I get the feeling that backtracking to previously visited areas in this will be a LOT less of a nuisance than in that game.

There are certain enemies where your battles in them will be real-time and situated in the environment as well. You discover, for example, that a lot of the holes you encounter throughout the game are caused by these giant goomba mechs that are made out of what look like wire and paper-mache, and you'll need to bait their attacks and attack them with your hammer to defeat them.

BOSS BATTLES

Boss battles... I'm liking them. They looked boring in the footage, but, in practice, it's consistently engaging to use the ring system to chart a route to the boss. Crucially, every boss is like a big puzzle, so it's not enough to just run up to them and attack. Instead, you have to usually navigate to specific sections of their body to interact with them in certain ways to progress the flow of the battle.

There are more bosses than just the legion of stationary bosses that seem to guard the streamers. They're not really interesting personalities, which might disappoint some, but they're also not uninteresting. Primarily because the game does a good job of building up to them. The first boss in the game, the Earth Vellumental, has a decent-sized dungeon to run through before you get it, and you learn that it's revered like a sort of deity in the area via the optional narration booths located throughout the public area of the dungeon.

The colored pencil boss might seem stupid, but the build-up to it was really well done. You're traveling through this tower, encountering trashed environments, colored doodles, etc. and it's very clear that something has gone seriously wrong here. The toads are all terrified. And then giant colored pencil missles start violently burrowing their way into the building, forcing you to change how you travel through the tower. It's interesting. Do I miss not having interesting personalities like Rawk Hawk or Doopliss as antagonists on my adventure? Sure. The game would be better with actual villains than with monsters and sentient colored pencils. But the context in which you meet them is interesting enough that I didn't feel like they were necessarily bad bosses, either. I don't come down on Zelda dungeon bosses because they're not sarcastic and quippy, and I feel like the same sort of logic applies here. And, in terms of how you fight them, they feel much more explicitly like Zelda bosses.

WHAT I DON'T LIKE

The biggest flaw in the game, far and away, is the lack of interesting and unique NPCs to talk to. The Thousand Year Door is SO full of personality with regard to the inhabitants of its world, and I spent a good amount of the game laughing at the often cynical flavor of the dialogue I heard from its residents. There's... really nothing like that here. Almost everyone you meet is just a generic Mario character. Olivia is fine and cute and all that, but her dialogue doesn't really have a lot of flair to it. There's a lot of humor infused into dialogue and situations you'll encounter throughout the game, but it feels more like it's deliberately trying to be funny, whereas the humor in TTYD often arose organically from the situation you found yourself in. The game often makes me smile, but rarely gives me the deep belly laughs where I have to stop myself from choking eventually.

A lot of people seem to like the game's connected overworld (it's NOT open world in any sense I can glean; all of the areas just happen to be connected), but I find that backtracking can feel like a bit of a slog at times. Mario's movement speed should have been boosted a bit given the much larger scope of the environments here.

CONCLUSION

So, is it a good game? So far, I'm quite enjoying myself. It's extremely promising so far, and I haven't even arrived at the apparent overworld exploration segments yet! But it's not an RPG, and, honestly, it feels like an entirely different sort of game than TTYD was. It feels like a related but different Mario spinoff entirely. I kind of wish Nintendo hadn't opted to lump games like this in with the older, more explicitly narrative-heavy RPG experiences. It's hard, because, while I kind of wish this hadn't replaced the older style, I also don't want this style of PM game to stop existing either. It's very different.

I will say this: even if it's not what you wanted or expected, it's not a bad game. If you're a Paper Mario virgin, or if you're just open to experiencing something different from the older games, I'd say you should give it a shot.

@Ralizah
Really enjoyed the “Ralizah’s Review” post. I almost entirely agree. And one of the more controversial statements, that I also happen to agree with, is “so far I'm liking this ring system a lot more than the "jump on an enemy's head; guard; wash, rinse, and repeat" system in TTYD. It's far less repetitive, at least once the game lets go of your hand”. I wasn’t expecting that. But the battle system really is great.

Now that I’m starting to do some backtracking I think my opinion has swayed back to my original thought, which you stated yourself- movement speed could have been increased a bit given the backtracking. They also could have simply used more warp pipes. Either way, not a huge deal, but worth mentioning.

Where I disagree, is with the characters. While it’s true this game has nothing on TTYD in terms of original characters or unique Mario universe characters, it’s a lot better than the first world leads on, which you’ll discover yourself soon enough in the blue streamer area and Shogun Studios. And Olivia is amazing. Once Bobby is in your party and you’ve played a bit further, you’ll change your mind about Olivia. Of that I am confident. She is just SUCH a great character. And Bobby is as well. They’re all great. But Olivia is too lovable. How can anyone not fall for this kind of charm:

Also, Bobby has great personality too, and I’m happy to see, at the very least, more unique character designs than Sticker Star or Color Splash.

I will also add that the Toads’ quips and one-liners bring that constant levity to the forefront. A lot of people feel this game is actually much more organic with its humor and it was the previous games that felt forceful. I haven’t played enough of Color Splash to compare, though. That being said, I haven’t laughed out loud more than a few times. But I don’t recall laughing out loud more than a few times in TTYD either. It takes a lot to get me to crack up. But I think the humor has been fantastic. The toads have been a big part of that. But maybe Color Splash was funnier. I hear a lot of praise for that game’s humor. Either way, I’m very pleased with the humor in the game.

edit
Also, this: “It's hard, because, while I kind of wish this hadn't replaced the older style, I also don't want this style of PM game to stop existing either. It's very different“

I feel exactly the same way. I loved the OG formula, and always will, but this game has finally stuck the landing in the series’ adventure-genre experimentation. While I do yearn for TTYD2 or spiritual successor, I now also find myself attached to this and would be just as saddened to see a departure from the new formula. They’ll certainly change the battle system again next game, and, that’s fine. Just so long as the general blueprint is maintained. Most of all, it’s the grand adventure that really sets this game apart and heartens back to the older entries. And frankly, I think this game does it better than ever.

The one thing I hope for moving forward is more unique designs. I don’t care about original characters. The Mario universe has beloved designs and I am perfectly content staying within the bounds of the Mario universe. You’ll get no objection from me on that. But I do want to see more unique designs. This game took a huge step forward in that regard compared to the last two, but they could take it so much farther. And I hope they do. At the end of the day does it really matter? Not really, but at the same time, ya, it does. It just adds more flavor and personality to the characters.