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Topic: Super Mario 3D All-Stars

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porto

@StuTwo I thought I needed every one of the coins when I first played it as well! Not needing most coins made the whole thing much easier.

I agree. It’s a fun but challenging level. Something that Sunshine doesn’t have. All the hard levels aren’t that fun to play, outside of a few rare ones. That’s just my opinion.

Edited on by porto

porto

Switch Friend Code: SW-2940-3286-4610 | My Nintendo: Pikmin4 | Twitter:

Banjo-

@NEStalgia I think that Koizumi (Tokyo's) Mario games are designed to be much easier and not punish the player, almost never. I would never say that the Galaxy games are bad, they feel like some kind of evolution of Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, developed by the same team, more action linear games than Super Mario 64 and Sunshine and the tiny planets don't do anything for me. Galaxy games are primarily action. Super Mario 3D Land and 3D World do their own thing too, more 2D than 3D. Super Mario Odyssey is the only time that they tried to do something like Miyamoto (Kyoto's) games but the result is more Breath of the Wild meets Mario, this is, walking simulators.

Edited on by Banjo-

Banjo-

Beaucine

It's been interesting reading all the responses to 64, mostly because others' experiences seem wildly different to my own.

For example, one of the things I appreciate about 64 is precisely how it mixes explorable environments with frequent platforming, especially if you're into inventing shortcuts, and double, triple, or wall jumping into higher points of a level. I'm almost never just "walking around" — which I did do a lot of in Odyssey, for example. Even early courses like Whomp's Fortress seem beautifully put together to me, a tight playground of little platforming challenges, with stars you can get in different ways. You can take the linear path or go nuts with riskier jumping exploits. Same with Cool, Cool Mountain. The only early course I'm not particularly into is Jolly Roger Bay. I know it's iconic, but there's not an awful lot to it beyond the ship. I actually prefer Dire, Dire Docks, the level it's always compared to, because the large hangar area has more fun platforming in it.

The only times I've had real trouble with the camera were the times I unintentionally broke the game, like long-jumping into the mushroom in Tall, Tall Mountain and completely ignoring the cannon, which is what you're supposed to use. But 64's "breakable" nature is part of what I love about it. It's very freeform, almost jazzy in the way it's put together. Last night, I did run into a legitimely terrible camera-related section, though: lining up your descent in Pyramid Puzzle. Ugh. Still, the sandfall gives you a reference point for the position of the platforms, which are on either sides of it, so it wasn't as terrible as it could've been.

Beaucine

porto

I just finished Corona Mountain and beat Bowser. And my final verdict is a tricky one to make. It has its fun moments, and quirky style which I love, and yet just feels very unfinished.

In fact, that‘s the one word I can give this game. “Unfinished. In almost every way it lacks something great. No checkpoints, faulty controls, and impossibly unfair stages. It’s also fair to admit Sunshine has almost no original stages. It’s all either Secret Stages, red coin missions, or blue coin shines (which mind you, takes up almost half the shines. Others may like those levels but I sure don’t.)

But taking away those oddities, you have a clever story, amazing graphics, and intriguing areas. I also would like to point out how worlds like Gelato Beach, Noki Bay, and Sirena Beach aren’t just mindless collecting. There’s a fun little story behind them, something I rarely see in Mario games.

Overall, Sunshine has many odds. But, I can’t hate on them because Sunshine also does great things no other Mario game does. I think it’s fair to rate the game a healthy 7/10. Not as bad as I originally thought.

porto

Switch Friend Code: SW-2940-3286-4610 | My Nintendo: Pikmin4 | Twitter:

Ralizah

@NEStalgia I mean, people can learn to paint with their toes and use echolocation to see objects in their environments, too. The brain is an amazing, very adaptable organ. So, yeah, if you struggle with Mario 64's controls enough, you do eventually get used to them. Doesn't make them not terrible.

On that note, I've had next to no issues with Sunshine. The moveset/mechanics are delightful, and Mario feels very solid in general. The camera could probably stand to be improved a bit, but it's about 1000x less frustrating than the one in SM64.

Edited on by Ralizah

Currently Playing: Advance Wars 1 + 2: Re- Boot Camp (NS)

Banjo-

@ToadBrigade That was partly answered by @Beaucine. Nostalgia affects me in the beginning and in the ending of the game but not while I'm concentrated on the gameplay. It's more about learning and discovering different ways to progress. Cannons, wing cap, long jumps, triple jumps, wall kicks... The possibilities are huge in most courses. For instance, before I posted today, I got the 100th coin in Rainbow Ride after the carpet had left the house and I found some coins on a platform. The dialogue box don't pause the game so when I closed the window the carpet was gone. I got the star because the coins were on a platform. I jumped to the next platform and got inside the house, the carpet didn't come, once it disappears you have to start its ride again. After remembering this, I exited the house again and did a long jump that took me to a far away platform and, from there, I could jump onto the maze area, where I could get the red coins star that I already triggered while collecting coins earlier. In a nutshell, the fun of Super Mario 64 is not the nostalgia it brings to Nintendo 64 players but the way we have mastered the game thanks to how agile Mario is and how dense the worlds are. That is why Super Mario 64 is fun.

Banjo-

Beaucine

@ToadBrigade

Odyssey has a lot of variety, but I found it fundamentally shallow. Your captures give you context-specific skills and moves, and in so doing substract from your regular moveset. This is fine for those who like it, but I prefer an experience where I have a limited moveset and can focus on mastering it, rather than a wider palette of unique skills that I only use for very specific applications. Traversal and movement are, of course, better in Odyssey, since it's refined to an impossible degree. But outside of Luncheon and New Donk City, which are excellent, I found the stages either too large or too small, and at any rate not hugely fun to experiment with. There's also the issue of glut: of missions, of moons, etc. And the fact that most of Odyssey's best platforming happens in what can only be described as an astral plane, which always looks the same no matter where you enter it from. I would've preferred those challenges to be found within the stages. Odyssey also lacks the easygoing and fluid transition between stages that you get in 64, where you're always jumping out and into the various courses, depending on your whim. Odyssey has more linear progression, at least at first, and even when you unlock everything and get into the extensive post-game, you still have to travel to each stage, which ends up encouraging discrete, lengthy stays. Point being, there are concrete reasons for preferring 64 over Odyssey, not just fond memories. Of which I have none: I hated 64 when I was a kid. I only spent like an hour with it, but still.

Edited on by Beaucine

Beaucine

porto

Apportal wrote:

It’s also fair to admit Sunshine has almost no original stages. It’s all either Secret Stages, red coin missions, or blue coin shines

@ToadBrigade I don’t think you understood me correctly. I didn’t say those stages were unoriginal on their own, I meant that most shines revolve around those stages and never go away. Which would be fine if I actually liked those stages.

(I don’t)

Edited on by porto

porto

Switch Friend Code: SW-2940-3286-4610 | My Nintendo: Pikmin4 | Twitter:

Beaucine

@ToadBrigade

It grows on you, especially if you can overlook or adapt to the dated controls and camera, and if — like BlueOcean and I — you appreciate the experimental and "breakable" nature of the game. I put "breakable" in scare quotes because it always feels like the developers were, in some way, aware that you could perform all these skill-based exploits. 64's small, platform-packed levels encourage that kind of freedom. Later levels throw more platforms at you, so of course you have more stuff to play with. I agree the more horizontal levels — like Jolly Roger Bay and Hazy Maze Cave, which I love but feels more like a Zelda dungeon — can drag a bit. 64 is best when it's vertical.

Beaucine

Beaucine

@ToadBrigade

Oh, I know. It's just that, when it comes to videogames, it can sometimes be hard to talk about the classics. Most people think of videogames as technology that soon becomes obsolete — and I mean the culture as a whole, including journalists, players, and developers --, so you often don't get the kind of subtle discussion you'd have about old books or movies, where it's understood the "dated" elements of, say, a 1940s Hollywood film or a 19th century Russian novel are part of the charm and meaning. With videogames, the matter of nostalgia often ends up putting an asterisk next to old-timers' opinions. I don't mean in your case, mind. I mean, again, in general. You can say it's a pet peeve of mine. Apologies.

Edited on by Beaucine

Beaucine

Banjo-

@ToadBrigade It takes some patience, though.

Some tips:

· Don't use the camera as if it was Odyssey but use Lakitu's far or near camera depending on the obstacles around and change angle depending on the platforming.

· Use Mario's camera for walking straight.

· Take a screenshot before shooting the cannons (only possible on Switch) so you can correct your aiming easier the next time. I didn't do it but I had this idea while playing.

· After collecting 100 coins and saving, collect any other remaining star so you get another star much faster. As a bonus, you get a higher score.

· In Tick Tock Clock, try to get 100 coins each time you enter the course until you success because you can get 100 coins as long as the minute hand doesn't indicate 12. You should enter when it indicates around 2 for slower platforms and 12 for getting the red coins.

· On Cool Cool Mountain's slide press left when the slide is leaning inwards. I always fell down when I was a child 😂.

As @Beaucine, I thought that the game was frustrating at first, I just had some patience and then it became rewarding and fun. Even the castle is a perfect hub world, pleasant and easy to navigate.

Edited on by Banjo-

Banjo-

Octane

@Ralizah You should do some Sunshine impressions. I enjoyed reading your 64 impressions/frustrations

Octane

Banjo-

@ToadBrigade Literally, you don't need to deal with the tornadoes. I got everything without meeting a single one on Switch. Your best friend here is the Wing Cap (you unlock the Wing Cap at the castle's hall) on top of the dark ruins near the start. To get on top, do a side somersault from the side that is closest to the big moving cubes. You can fly from there to the cannon and then reach any area of the course. You can use the four pillars as heliports, too. That's the fun I'm talking about 😄. If you find more trouble, let me, Beaucine or 1UP_MARIO know.

Edited on by Banjo-

Banjo-

Beaucine

Two tips for Shifting Sand Land: triple jump to the top of that stone structure right when you go in. There's a shell you can ride on that makes everything easier. Also, on the tornadoes, use them to your benefit. I actually jump right into them because they give you some air time, like hopping on winged enemies.

Edited on by Beaucine

Beaucine

Beaucine

@ToadBrigade

Oh, that can be annoying. Haha. Flying in general is tricky. It's like the cape in Super Mario World, but in a 3D space. You need to work with inertia and wind resistence, and is very easy to screw up. Wish you could stick a jetpack into Mario's back sometimes. Heh.

Beaucine

Banjo-

@ToadBrigade You can get a Wing Cap on the ruins' roof but also next to the cannon and there is a warp point that takes you to the cannon at the palm tree beside the oasis. So when you want to fly again, go to the oasis.

Banjo-

NEStalgia

@BlueOcean I don't think Odyssey is inherently worse than 64. It has "so many moons!" But most of those moons replace the blue/red/100 coin goals of the other games. Collecting the many moons that are obvious is just like collecting the many coins that are obvious. The hard moons are still the hard stars. And some are still insidious. Koizumi's team did a great job with that one, and yes, Galaxy is kind of its own thing. I never compared it to Jungle beat, but it's a more pensive 3D version of 2D mario. Not as fast as 2D mario though. If anything Galaxy is kind of an extension of the 2D sections of Sunshine.....only made into a whole game and not as catastrophically broken with a disastrous camera and iffy physics (outside the octo-gated GCN controller, anyway.)

But totally agreed on the fact that Miyamoto games are punishing on a level Koizumi games never approach. Miyamoto's a masochist. I think he once said he likes to make games that are a little beyond his ability to do easily. His DAY JOB has been Mario platformers for 35 years. What hope do mere mortals have?

@Ralizah I never even owned an N64, I skipped it and GCN - catching up on GCN on Wii except Sunshine that was mad money by the time Wii came out. I played Mario 64 for brief bursts standing in retail stores and hated the way mario handled at the time. Strangely I didn't get to play it in full until Wii, but adapted fast to it even with the awful latency. Sunshine on the other hand....I mean I love it in many ways, but the controls and the camera have me screaming at the screen more than normal mario games ever should require. Seriously, try do do the behind the ferris wheel part WITHOUT screaming explatives every time the camera clips through the wall. Let alone the 2D sections with diagonal single block paths and a mario that just doesn't do diagonal well at all.....

NEStalgia

Ralizah

@Octane @NEStalgia I'll defo revisit Sunshine and talk about it on here. And, if need be, light it on fire in the process (like I still plan to do with Mario 64 when I post my review).

Currently Playing: Advance Wars 1 + 2: Re- Boot Camp (NS)

NEStalgia

@Ralizah Mario 64 is a delightful game that's an unfortunately victim of its time. You have to play it with the time period in mind, but if you can do that, there's a lot to appreciate (and curse out.) Sunshine is also unfortunately a product of its time, mixed with a product of a rushed release (arguably the only game Miyamoto has ever rushed to release.) It was waaaay ahead of its time in so many regards and such a clear jump from the forever charming but dated time capsule limitations of 64, and did things that other games didn't start doing until the PS3/360 era. But it was also a reaaaly rough implementation in doing so in many areas. The 2D sections need to be remade to be anything other than broken and infuriating. All the camera locking tricks and edge snapping that are subtlely in newer games.....and also in 64.....are missing in Sunshine and it's all down to iffy physics and not-right camera angles. The 3D parts can be infuriating due to the camera, but not really the physics. The "2D" in 3D space parts can be flat broken by both, and it's made worse by the fact you have to redo some inane but annoying 3D stuff to get back into the 2D stuff when it ejects you (putting the Yoshi on the carousel, navigating the ghost blocks to the entrance, etc.)

NEStalgia

StuTwo

Apportal wrote:

@StuTwo I thought I needed every one of the coins when I first played it as well! Not needing most coins made the whole thing much easier.

I agree. It’s a fun but challenging level. Something that Sunshine doesn’t have. All the hard levels aren’t that fun to play, outside of a few rare ones. That’s just my opinion.

You won't get Sunshine defending from me! It's a rough prototype of a great game caught between wanting to be a liberating Mario 64 part 2 and being Mario Galaxy 0. It's occasionally mega difficult because of things like the camera and some design decisions that weren't play tested enough. It's still my biggest disappointment with this collection because with some (admittedly a lot) of work it could be something genuinely special.

Emulation on PC will get the game playing at 60fps in 4k and maybe even fix the camera but mods will never be able to fix some of the bigger issues with the game and I think Nintendo could have done.

BlueOcean wrote:

@NEStalgia I think that Koizumi (Tokyo's) Mario games are designed to be much easier and not punish the player, almost never. I would never say that the Galaxy games are bad, they feel like some kind of evolution of Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, developed by the same team, more action linear games than Super Mario 64 and Sunshine and the tiny planets don't do anything for me. Galaxy games are primarily action. Super Mario 3D Land and 3D World do their own thing too, more 2D than 3D. Super Mario Odyssey is the only time that they tried to do something like Miyamoto (Kyoto's) games but the result is more Breath of the Wild meets Mario, this is, walking simulators.

I don't think the difficulty is a Koizumi/Miyamoto thing. I don't think that any Mario game outside the Lost Levels or (possibly, maybe) the end game of Super Luigi U has anything approaching the difficulty of "The Perfect Run" in Galaxy 2 and some of the late game levels in 3D World are brutally difficult. I think Darker Side on Odyssey is technically much harder platforming than anything in Mario 64. It's just fairer and you feel in control.

I think Nintendo has got increasingly good at layering different levels of challenge in their games. Thinking about Galaxy - just about anyone could eventually get the stars to face off with Bowser and see the credits. Finding all 120 stars is a much harder ask because levels like Luigi's Purple Coins is a gatekeeper - you cannot get that star (or several others) without some real skill. Then if you want to the regular coins in the levels are a high score mechanism for players who want to completely master the game.

As for Mario 64 vs Odyssey. I like both of them a lot. I think that Odyssey is the better game if I were recommending someone who has played neither to pick one or the other but like @Beaucine put really elegantly - there are a lot of great design decisions in Mario 64. I don't think it's just great as "a product of its time" (even if the camera has always been a pain and some of the later levels aren't great IMO). There are reasons to enjoy Mario 64 more than the subsequent games and some nice lessons to be learnt from it.

I think someone said they think Odyssey is trying to be the BoTW of the Mario series - I actually think that structurally it's Mario 64 that feels far more like BoTW. It's much more freeform and - as others have said the fact that most platforms can be reached in lots of different ways (triple jumping, maybe wall kicking off a nearby platform, firing yourself from a cannon etc.) is something that I don't think any other Nintendo game has really done effectively since other than BoTW.

...

Oh also as a complete aside - if we can have cat Mario in Mario Maker 2 why not bee Mario and cloud Mario (possibly my favourite power up in the whole Mario series)?

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

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