Topic: Bayonetta 3

He's a rude stuck up ignorant pig. I'm surprised it took Twitter this long to recognise that.

@RubyCarbuncle Ikr? I heard and read read three things about the dude, I always found him to be a huge p**** and brunt toast.

I’m a big proponent of manners cost nothing, but a small part of me is mildly ok with Kamiya’s personality for a few reasons. (I’m not ok with long suffering politeness though. I only have two cheeks for you to slap. Protect your peace first.) Gamers harass and send him death threats, which would put anyone off interacting with the public. And that culture really needs to be lanced from society but humans are simmering pots of violence so never gonna happen. He has repeatedly requested that people not post to him in any language but his native one (which even if he is fluent in English, which if I am not mistaken he is, he has a right to want to interact in the language he finds most comfortable) which most folks ignore that request. Also he built his career partially on his personality quirks. It’s his “brand” and always has been. That brand infuses the franchises he has helmed and thus people like it when it is in a product they wanna pay for but get mad when he is actually that way. Anybody shocked a) is the reaction he wants b) must not have paid attention for the past two decades because that is not new.

I suppose I can be neutral about it because I am not addicted to social media (I have managed to avoid all of it except linkedin). But I merely process any information he gives and ignore the rest. I also don’t believe in pestering someone to death (let alone full blown harassment) just because they are part of making something I wanna buy. If my clients pestered me the way gamers bug the daylights out of devs, i would quit. As such Kamiya doesn’t bother me at all. Just wait for official announcements or interviews and let devs do their jobs. Anonymity and easy access to people has made doing any publicly facing job a nightmare. People wanna scream don’t be PC but when that is turned against them oh no he is horrible. Kamiya usually responds like for like. If you are polite and writing in Japanese he isn’t rude to you.

Sorry for the text wall. I’ve been avoiding spoilers so I don’t have much to say about the game itself yet.

Twitter ganging up on a person that may or may not be responsible for a situation that may or may not be unfair is prime twitter. Luckily it is a cesspool of loud minority hive-minds that with the abolishment of witch-hunts 200 years ago can do fairly limited damage.

Well, Kamiya deleted his Twitter account. The next logical step was blocking himself.

Now I know for sure Bayonetta 3 isn't going to get any positive coverage when it launches.

Such a weird situation, Hideki Kamiya seems like a really crap human being based on his whole calling people insects thing, but I don't know him personally. But then on the other side is 4k really a bad wage for a voice acting gig? I make that in like two months working full time, I doubt they will be doing two months of full time working to record the VA, but I dunno maybe they do.

That’s unfortunate that Kamiya was run off of twitter. But I suppose that was better than having your phone vibrate itself to death as the mob comes after you. Focus has shifted from promoting the game which is what HT wanted. And it’s too late to roll out a marketing campaign to counter this sandstorm. It just sucks overall because this is not how you handle a pay negotiation failure. I hope the damage to the Bayonetta brand isn’t long lasting.

I think everything that has and is happening around Bayonetta 3 is going to cause serious problems for Platinum Games going forward. Things just keep on blowing up right now, and this on top of their first live service game.

Again I don’t believe Bayonetta 3 will be impacted as badly as social media seems to be making it seem. But I have concerns about the companies future.

@Madao
Exactly

I'm all for standing up against real injustice, but you will never be able to convince me an offer of $250/hr for 16 hours work (the equivalent of two normal 8 hour workdays) isn't a "fair wage" and warrants boycotting.

Ppl said she wasn't part of the union, so she was being taken advantage of. That was a lie.

Ppl said the offer didn't meet the union wage table. That was a lie.

Ppl said VAs are paid dirt. But from what I can see, they're paid insanely well. The issue isn't that they're not paid well, the issue is that it's a short gig, so to make it a full time job you need a bunch of gigs throughout the year. But in her case, she's only done 30 gigs in 30 years, or one per year. Which means it's a side gig on top of her normal job. Getting offered $250/hr for 16 hrs on the side... then refusing and stirring up a massive dust storm over it... just wow.

Sounds to me like she let ego get the best of her, and is now angry when she learned she is, in fact, replaceable, and that previews were glowing despite having a new VA. Now she regrets passing up on the gig and wants retribution.

I...I don't know if anyone realises this or not but...well...it's really none of our business. If she was offered $240/hr then my heart isn't going to bleed for someone who can't live off that. Granted, the nature of artist's work means that it isn't stable. But come on. Sure, it's Bayonetta and we love her, but it's not Mario. The studio needed funding for 2 and 3. Not exactly a huge successful franchise. I don;t know. I'm not defending anyone, just wish there was more context and even then, they don't have to provide it because, oh yeah, it's none of my business.

Sometimes I feel like stuff like this is why many of the small to medium size Japanese devs are just fine with either staying domestic or outsourcing localization and foreign interaction. There is a communication barrier (even if some members speak English) on top of the cultural one, and then just like any other business NDA/contracts means they can't go into detail, but a person that is more on the fringes and doing contract work can kick up a fuss and it is a mess to try to clean up. Especially since so many people have the "companies are bad, because I don't get the profits but have no idea what goes on behind the scenes" mentality while forgetting that companies are made up of people and thus like an individual can be good or bad (and usually unlike an individual, not collectively so, as I'm sure everyone but the folks that run the budget and drafted the legal documents for the pay offer and then the project leads, had nothing to do with all this drama but they are going to be impacted anyway), half the time the individuals going off are breaking contract (so what is their word worth unless they are voicing about actual abuse...then no you can't hide behind a legal shield) and that the majority of us consume from companies and work for or own companies...so yeah. Folks act like they live off the land or something when almost all of us have the majority of our lives shaped by companies.Not to mention if it was their business I suspect many of the people that are up in arms about this without researching, would do the same thing. Voice acting is a piece of game production; nobody is gonna blow the budget on it, because the rest of the game has to be made/employees paid. It has to be hard if you aren't a mega corp that can build branches in other countries staffed with folks from that country to keep public perception from going off the rails. Heck it is hard enough to do domestically. This just turned into an silly mess. Even more, the franchise isn't even that popular so it's almost like fans of the franchise aren't allowed to be happy for the new entry and leave it at that.

@Ryu_Niiyama I'll be honest. Her tweet is the first time I have seen her face. I wish she had just explained her reasoning without then going burning her bridges.

@GrailUK It's up to any contractor to keep contracts flowing. If HT was expecting Bayonetta to be her meal ticket when Jennifer Hale, who is way more prolific than she is, works several gigs AND appearances a year (and she promotes other VAs, not sure if just as a mentor or paid), then HT needs to go back and research what it takes to be a VA/seiyuu and then start over. But agreed, none of this was our business and the public should not have been brought into it. If HT felt her rights were violated then there is always legal recourse, but since that isn't actually the case and she walked on a deal that she now seems to regret she has nothing but the court of public opinion as a weapon. Instead of you know...working other gigs to make her coins.

I'll be more honest. I always forgot her name, because once I am done with a Bayonetta game, HT fades into obscurity again. If she wanted to command big money, she should have beat the pavement as the old saying goes. There is a reason why Jennifer Hale is so beloved, if you grew up in the 90s and had exposure to American media, you heard her voice or saw her at some convention/interview, same as Cree Summer (who imo is just as prolific but has not been a VA as long as Hale because she did regular acting (just as Hale did)) first. Work is work, you put in the blood, sweat, tears and failure and usually (if you aren't sabotaged, which does happen too) eventually you come out on top.

@GrailUK Yeah I do feel she may regret what she’s said should this see her stop getting VO work going forward.

@jump “I know things like pay is a sensitive subject in the US but some of the comments like fudge her, she's mental, how dare she etc aren't sitting right with me. The voice acting isn't real acting therefore she should be happy with what she gets in particular I don't like.”

Agreed. This overwhelming sentiment to side with corporations is disturbing, as if we owe our existence to them and should be expected to take whatever they deign to toss on the floor for us to lap up as some form of beneficence. I’m obviously extrapolating and over-stating, but not by much. Americans have been conditioned by decades of propaganda to look to companies as some sort of benefactors. That they most certainly are not.

And creative endeavors are not measured the same way as assembly line production. Yes, it’s measurable in terms of hours worked, but that’s deceptive - value provided is a better metric. Argue that she’s replaceable? Fine, then pay everyone except the CEO $5.00 an hour.

@Ryu_Niiyama Agreed. Now it's just gotten ugly with most people only having guesswork to back up their outrage.

@Nancyboy We do owe our existence to companies/businesses/corporations (and I am saying this neutrally btw). Did you make the clothes you are wearing, the car (or public transportation) you use, how about the electronic device you are using to access the internet, or the network of servers that make the internet possible? Corporations aren't always right and I would certainly never say that, but people aren't an island of virtue either. Everything you do and interact with, comes from contracts, businesses and governments...which are made up of people. Can companies abuse their power? Certainly but so can an individual because again, people. HT isn't automatically right because she is an individual and says she is, (I'm not saying she is wrong either actually).

If a person wants to be paid close to their worth (most folks ARE underpaid after all) then they have to put in the work and negotiate favorable contracts. No one has to accept a job offer, but no company is obligated to blow their budget to heck to accommodate one person. What about all the other hundreds of people that are part of making this game? Or even the other VA, Atsuko Tanaka, that is involved in this role (as Bayonetta has a JPN and English VA). Literally one person is up in arms about this game right now and while we don't have all the facts, so far based on the wage table of her union and the amount of work she has stated she has done for the role prior, the pay rate, while not extravagant, was fair.

Also she has less creative nuance in such a role. She didn't write for or design the character, neither does she do mocap or is her likeness used in her design. She only provides her voice (I'm not belittling that btw, as I'm super excited that Jennifer Hale is only providing her voice), which any other VA could do. You seem to be dismissive of the "assembly line" folks (as in the programmers that build the game line by line or the testers that keep it from being a buggy mess when we get it) when they provide more work, value (as there would be no game without them) and any VA should she take the job can be Bayonetta. (I'm not saying they would pull some nobody, as they pulled in one of the biggest names...) However I can play the game with no sound and still enjoy it, while if all the programmers, project managers, and artists had walked...we'd have no game.

She had three options, take it as offered, negotiate for more (and know that can fail), or walk. This isn't the only job she can do, no company owes an individual anything, just as to the same no individual owes a company anything...beyond the contracts they have legally signed (which she has said she has no qualms in violating...but if Platinum had entered into a contract with her and violated it, folks would be ready to burn down the building). HT didn't take the gig, no contract was signed, the job was offered to someone else. We can't all make a million dollars for a job, our work simply usually isn't worth that much. Does that mean that some people are overpaid and some are underpaid, yes, but recognizing that this is all a balance, and people have options (why is Bayonetta her only notable role? What has she been doing all this time?) and are responsible for their choices/actions is key. People have got to stop letting their emotions (and their own desires for more money...people root for the underdog so to speak because they empathize, which is a knee jerk, emotional response) uproot logic. That being said, I agree that there is no reason to attack anyone in this situation. I will call out HT's lack of professionalism, but I'm not going to attack her to do it.

Oh, it's certainly not a ridiculous amount of money to be earning for a game like Bayonetta. It's neither a huge franchise nor one with a lot of dialogue in the games. I'd agree that she's misjudged her worth to it and thought I stated as much.

My point was rather to counter the people acting as though she's making bank when the reality is that such paydays are probably only an occasional occurrence. Most VAs never get enough work to make a full time career of it and it's just a side hustle while they work a day job.

Bayonetta now up to #31 on Amazon Best-Sellers.

Can't convince me this isn't boosting sales.

This is one of the most incredibly intelligent takes I've heard. Wow. Agree 100%.

edit
Also, I often hear ppl say things like, "why are you defending a corporation" as if by being a corporation, they are automatically in the wrong, no ifs, ands or buts. And the person is automatically in the right, no ifs, ands or buts. And it's so opposed to logic it astounds me.

I never automatically defend corporation or persons. Both can be in the wrong, both can be in the right. Each situation must be judged on the merits of that specific instance. I prefer to use logical reasoning to determine who is right, who is wrong, if both are right or both are wrong. And it varies from case to case.

A lot of ppl automatically condemn companies because they're companies, and they don't care about the particular details. They're a company, ergo, they're wrong. End of story. And it's like you said. Why do companies do bad things sometimes? Because ppl run them. The very same species that individuals are. And if ppl can be greedy and self serving in a corporation they can be just as greedy and self serving as individuals.

Look at how many individuals try to justify pirating new games. Or pounce on a price listing error where the company didn't intend to sell as low as the listing showed, or get mailed two copies of something when they only paid for one, but stay silent. Ppl don't think twice about it. But if the roles were reversed. And they were double charged, hoooo boy watch out. That company is gonna get raked over the coals.

Ppl need to use more discernment and judge rightly based on the specific facts of each scenario. If the person was wrong, say so. If the company was wrong, say so. If they're both wrong, say so. If neither was wrong, say so.

@Matt_Barber
I kept hearing people repeat how VAs get paid trash, but after researching throughout this ordeal, I've learned that's the opposite of the truth. They get paid like Champs. $250/hr??? Shoot... let me get in on some of that.

The issue isn't the pay, it's the fact the gigs are short term. So anyone wanting to do VA work full time needs to book a bunch of gigs every year.

But HT has only averaged 1 gig per year over the last 30 years. Which means VA is most definitely not her full time job. So she turned down a side job of working 16 hrs for $250/hr, and expects everyone to skip the game because of it, as if her life depended on that money (for one- if it did she would have taken the job, and for two, it's not her full time job, it's $$$ on the side).

@JaxonH so true, a lot of people were really quick to jump on platinum games, I think there both wrong, but people were already making her out to be a victim.

And she is hardly the only va that needed to get paid, that on top of the budget for the game music, like come on woman.