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Topic: Should the Paper Mario series split into two seperate series?

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Kiolu100

Hear me out:

So, with the Switch it seems like Nintendos more interested in listening to fans than what we've seen before (story mode in Mario Tennis Aces, true open-world Mario since 64/Sunshine, Metroid Prime 4, etc.). I think this means it's quite likely this will bleed into the Paper Mario series at some point, despite what the devs had said before.

However, I think the Paper Mario series should split into two different series at this point.

Imagine: the traditional Paper Mario series with a higher focus on story, characters, and battle, and a lesser emphasis on the paper art style as we've seen in Thousand Year Door, and the second series being more focused on environment and puzzle solving, embracing the paper art style and comedic dialogue like in Color Splash and using the Super Paper Mario combat of just traditional Mario with light RPG elements. Hell, they could even add in some Metroidvania influences and give a large world that you could explore with a wide variety of key items you could find. I think this style could work out quite a bit.

Nintendo would probably never do something like this, but I think it could work, and it's just fun to speculate what they could do with the series after Color Splash and Sticker Star didn't sell all too well.

What do you guys think?

Kiolu100

GoldenGamer88

@Kiolu100 Great idea! ... except that most of the second‘s attributes (pretty much save for the battle system) would also need to be in the first. PM1+2 also had environmental puzzle solving, relied heavily upon comedic dialogue and had fun with the fact the world was pretty much made of paper (albeit not as much as in SS and CS, where that‘s pretty much the only joke).

Honestly, I hope Odyssey finally slapped Nintendo out of the trance the NSMB series put them in and finally let them do something creative and fresh with the series.

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Octane

Doesn't matter, it's not going to happen either way.

Octane

Aozz101x

would it work? maybe.
would Nintendo do it? doubt it.
at the end of day. if, Nintendo where to make a Paper Mario (3?/4? if Super isnt counted as a main paper mario game. ) they would have consider Color Splash and Super Star as spinoffs (of some sort).
if they do a third one. that would be pretty cool.

im creep out with thoese eyes... :P

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Kiolu100

@GoldenGamer88 The more I think about it, the first could just have a completely different feel to it, keeping the cartoony art style but ditching the whole paper thing. More in the line of Super Mario RPG. Also, while the first Paper Mario games had good environments and comedy, I feel like Color Splash, as bad as the battle system is, had great environments that were unique and fun to play through and a lot of varied humor that didn't revolve around paper.

And yeah, Nintendo and Intelligent Systems would probably never do something like this, but as I said, I just want this to be a discussion about what everyone would think about it.

Kiolu100

Kiolu100

@Winklebottom @Octane Yeah, I didn't really start this do debate whether or not they would actually split the series, I already said the chances are aboooout 0.000000000000001% if any, I just want to hear other's opinions on the whole idea and hear other speculations on where the series is headed.

@Winklebottom IMO, Super has more in common with 1 and 2 than it does to SS and CS, combat aside. I think that after the sales of SS and CS weren't too hot, Nintendo would just kinda ignore them from this point and bring back what fans want, like in Odyssey's case.

Kiolu100

Octane

@Kiolu100 Well, how would one exactly split a franchise? Giving them different names? Does it even matter? I think this is something fans worry about too much

Octane

Kiolu100

@Octane Exactly, I didn't really want this to be a discussion on how realistic it would be, I just wanted to hear everyone's opinion on the matter. The more realistic option would probably be just making Paper Mario what most fans want, a more TTYD styled RPG, but I just thought that turning the newer Paper Marios into a different spinoff/subseries that's more about exploration and Metroidvania would be pretty darn cool, combining SPM's story and CS's humor, environments, and art style. That being said, I'd bet actual money this won't happen. As I said though, it's fun to speculate what they could do with the series.

Kiolu100

GoldenGamer88

@Kiolu100 OMG HOW DARE YOU SAY THE THOUSAND-YEAR DOOR WASN'T ANYTHING BUT UTTER PERFECTION!!!1!1!!!1!

JK Seriously, though, you can think of any game whatever you want. Personally, I think the first three PMs had fewer but much more memorable locations, which also had better more diverse characters with more defined personalities. To be very honest with you, though, the mere fact they ditched the whole PM art style with SS and CS just leaves a bad taste in my mouth as it symbolizes the toxicly unifying influence of NSMB on the series.

But if two series mean I'd get a new traditional Paper Mario JUST like Thousand-Year Door, then I'd say GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME!!!

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Kiolu100

@GoldenGamer88 Yeah, everyone has their own tastes in games, I personally really like traditional Paper Mario but I think there's some unique potential from the newer ones, the way they have more of a focus on exploring and the paper art style.

I should've named this topic "The Future of Paper Mario" in hindsight.

Kiolu100

Ernest_The_Crab

@Kiolu100 Sticker Star sold about the same as Thousand Year Door. Colour Splash wasn't too off either after you adjust for respective audience sizes (Sticker Star did very poorly once you've adjusted for size). If anything, Intelligent Systems will just keep chugging along as if nothing has happened given that Colour Splash, their most recent release has sold about par for the series on a platform that was on its way out.

It's not like the Main Mario series where there's some actual leadership in the team (EAD). Not to mention the NSMB series sold VERY well. They didn't continue with it since it was mostly done as a learning experience for new EAD members (they weren't comfortable giving free rein to the newbies without some training first).

Intelligent Systems doesn't seem to have the leadership involved to get themselves on track. They've acted as mostly yes-men when its come to the more recent Paper Mario games. Whereas the other studios take Miyamoto's advice in stride and also point out when things don't make much sense (see EAD interviews), it feels like IS is just too intimidated by him and doesn't have strong enough personalities in the studio itself.

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GoldenGamer88

@Ernest_The_Crab I'd say Miyamoto should be put into a closet. Bowser's at his best when used as comedic relief and not as the same old villain but Shigeru doesn't like comedic Bowser so we have him back in the villain role since Dream Team. Miyamoto's responsible for Sticker Star and the ol guy really should be put into a position of less power from where he can do playthings like Labo but can't ruin things he shouldn't have control over.

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NEStalgia

@Kiolu100 Well Super Mario RPG was once one game, which then split into two: Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario, one for handheld, and one (primarily) for console. Paper Mario was then changed to what it is so that there weren't TWO Mario RPGs running at once. Now with Switch we're putting them on the same console. There's less incentive than ever for PM to return to being an RPG when M&L is going to have to coexist alongside it. ANd M&L can only be a JRPG. So PM's the odd one out that can try to be something different.

I dont' think they can split it. They can just focus on making the combat system not suck. The rest of the world is fine. How this is difficult for the creators of Fire Emblem, I don't understand....

@GoldenGamer88 I don't see NSMB in the CS/SS art style. That's the one thing those games DO have going for them is really doubling down on the papercraft aesthetic the GCN and N64 couldn't actually create. It really became a papercraft world.

It's like.....what if.....Labo could be used in a video game?? Whooooaaa...

NEStalgia

Ernest_The_Crab

@GoldenGamer88 Super Mario Odyssey has Bowser as the villain. I don't think that's a problem, unless you mean something specifically relating to Mario RPGs. Breath of the Wild wouldn't have become the amazing game it was if it weren't for his input. He also hasn't had a direct role in a very long time. You can't blame one person on the failures of many.

The much bigger problems are yes-men and hiveminds in corporate culture. Even worse when its both. The bigger studios in Nintendo don't have this problem with Miyamoto it's quite clear it's something else.

Edited on by Ernest_The_Crab

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NEStalgia

@GoldenGamer88 To be fair to Miyamoto, Bowser only works as comic relief because it's so juxtaposed to his normal actual villain role. It's surprising and out of character. If all we see him as is comedic browser, he stops being entertaining because it's not contrary to anything. It worked in CS. But I also want him to go back to comedy. M&L retains him as comedy though so that might be where that aspect stays. Paper Jam was comedy bowser in a villain role as a foil to the Peaches.

I get tired of hearing "Miyamoto ruined Sticker Star". Miyamoto said he wanted a stage driven design and to focus on using existing characters from the Mushroom Kingdom rather than creating new characters. He set a brand identity for handheld PM. It was IS that couldn't figure out how to make anything quality from that limit. They made a MUCH better use of those guidelines in CS....the game was actually fantastic in everything but....the core gamely. Which has nothing to do with Miyamoto, and everything to do with Intelligent System's odd obsession with unworkable overly complicated mechanics in ALL their games these days.

I don't expect much from the game in IS' hands. It's not Miyamoto with the unworkable combat system that really ruins the game. The toads made fine personalities in CS. I want to see Squeenix collab on it once more now that Ubisoft is doing collabs.

#BringBackOurGeno

NEStalgia

MarcelRguez

GoldenGamer88 wrote:

most of the second‘s attributes (pretty much save for the battle system) would also need to be in the first.

This is where I stand as well. Not to mention, we don't need three narrative-focused Mario series. If anything, I'd like to see less Mario spin-offs, not more.

MarcelRguez

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NEStalgia

@Ernest_The_Crab Say yes to whatever management wants, and success or not, it's their fault and you can't get in trouble. Contradict them and even if they let you do it, it's now YOUR responsibility and you can bet you're in deep if it fails. Who would ever contradict?

Unless it's someone of similar power, Aounuma, Koizumi, Takahashi, who can just write off the failure as "well we tried a creative experiment and it failed." I'm guessing, IS, as a subsidiary, has no power. They just follow on autopilot as the company suggests. Problem is they also got wrong the part that was all theirs.

NEStalgia

GoldenGamer88

@Ernest_The_Crab A platformer doesn't need much in the way of story, that's why the typical Peach is kidnapped by Bowser plot works time after time. A RPG needs more than that. Dream Team and Paper Jam and Sticker Star have nothing but the typical kidnapping plot and the Mario Bros. going through all the typical Mario Bros. locations - generic grassland, generic desert, generic snowfield, generic beach, generic lava castle. Early Mario RPGs may also had Peach kidnapped at the beginning but she was given a playable role in the story, the locals overall felt less generic and more lively and each local had its own story.

@MarcelRguez I think that's where Nintendo stands as well given they decided to change PM into an action adventure game and keep M&L as the sole rpg series - even though both lived as two seperate Mario RPGs peacefully alongside each other for years. I'd say both are in desperate need for revitalization free from the NSMB curse.

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MarcelRguez

@GoldenGamer88 Completely agree. Lost my interest on the M&L series with Dream Team and it doesn't feel like I'm missing much skipping the newer entries, which is a shame since I love the original so much. Color Splash was fine, if a bit of a chore to get through. Great writing, though.

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Kiolu100

@Ernest_The_Crab Sales don't exactly determine whether or not Nintendo wants to make something that fans want, the Prime series didn't sell well and they're currently making a new one.

And yes, I suppose my thinking is a bit odd, given how many spinoffs Mario has (especially RPG focused), this was more of me thinking that they could make some sort of Metroidvania Mario using the positives of CS while also making more traditional Paper Marios.

The most likely outcome as I see it is that they just scrap the whole disposable attacks combat system and make Paper Mario more traditional just like the majority of the fans want. They did this with Odyssey and Metroid and such, and they've been more interested in listening to fans lately, so this is probably the most possible outcome.

Plus, Nintendo has been kinda ditching the whole catering towards a younger audience thing, so a more mature narrative based Paper Mario with TTYD combat just like TTYD is very likely.

Kiolu100

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