Almost every game nowadays has your character upgrading his/her abilities throughout the game. That's why pretty much every game nowadays mentions RPG mechanics in its description. That doesn't mean it's an RPG.
RPG is always a pretty ill-defined thing. They have a goal/plot, characters, and some form of permanent upgrades. Is there anything else required to be an RPG?
Which of course brings the question — is Mario Wonder an RPG. Unlike most Mario platformers, the badges are a permanent upgrade system. And Mario wonder technically has a plot... I assume most people's answers would be an immediate 'no', but whether a game is an RPG is often a pretty grey question unless it falls into a common sub-genre of RPG with additional shared features.
@FishyS That's exactly my point. Almost every game that comes out nowadays has 2 or 3 of the items in that list in the previous post. Is every game an RPG? And if it was the exact same game except it was called Paper Mario Wonder and had the paper aesthetic, people would be bashing it because it's not a traditional RPG like the first two Paper Marios. And if Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King were the exact same games except they had the watercolor aesthetic of Wonder and removed the word "Paper" from their titles, people would think they were wonderful. I mean, if people want to call those three games RPGs, they can feel free. So many people call Zelda games RPGs and I disagree. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I'm just saying I think too many people bash those games for the sole reason that they wanted them to be traditional RPGs like the first two, which is unfair to them because they are all great games (okay "great" might still be pushing it for Sticker Star, but it's still better than the complete hate it usually gets).
I think the best take on what defines RPGs was one I heard about Mass Effect. In theory, the primary gameplay of that game's combat makes the game a 3rd person shooter, but with its RPG mechanics and reliance on story and character relations and choices the actual appeal of the game is an RPG. Even when the game had less RPG mechanics in its sequel, that was its primary appeal, just using 3rd person shooter gameplay to get through that RPG experience. That's why the story is what defines the game and why despite objective improvements in combat after 1 the downgrading of importance of those mechanics annoyed people so much.
New Paper Mario's issues are a problem of expectations and marketing and genre at least as much as its actual problems. I think if they were literally anything other than "Paper Mario games as a replacement for other Paper Mario and by accident, the other Mario RPG series because that series died", they would be more consistently well liked. And I think they would also be more liked if they either were RPGs or were not turn based video games at all. There's really no way around that for 3 times in a row they just made a game that appealed to less people via the choices they made. I sympathize with people who love the new Paper Mario as the guy who likes Star Fox Zero but despite being the closest to re-creating what I love about Star Fox 64, I'm also aware they made a game more difficult to get into, that didn't have enough new ideas beyond its controls nor something like a multiplayer mode to justify the difficulty in mastering them (also the dumb decision to hide the easier control scheme in the pause menu). I hate that the game is hated but Nintendo did a lot to not help that and the game is flawed enough that I can't call it a secret masterpiece everyone unfairly ignored(that's what Wonderful 101 is for).
anyway I'm bored of this discussion after all these years, here is a song I love in a Mario RPG that I can't imagine anyone else cares about:
I think its how it starts with such a simple melody, with nothing else distracting from it, perfectly catchy video game music.
Since we are talking about music of Mario RPGs, I wanted to talk about one music of Mario & Luigi Dream Team, and that is not necessarly one of those tracks everyone talks about and enjoys (so do I, like Somnom Woods or the two final bosses' tracks). This is the one we hear inside Bowser's dreams: that is when we discover something rotten, terrifying and devilish inside of his personality. That's precisely at that time that something is happening in the story of this game, when dream becomes a nightmare.
(and imagine there are also ominous laughing faces that pop up, sometimes)
Honestly, Yoko Shimomura just doesn't miss when it comes to great MaRPG music. The leitmotif she made for Bowser is so great, she used it again in the later titles.
In my opinion, it's the definitive theme for the Koopa King.
@Don I mean ... it's Mario. Apart from the rare games like Galaxy 2, are any of them really direct sequels? In some ways, all the paper mario games and mario and luigi games are the official sequels of Super Mario RPG.
@Don Well technically, Paper Mario was actually going to be a numbered sequel to MaRPG before it became its own thing and Mario & Luigi developer Alphadream was compromised of a lot of people who worked on the OG MaRPG.
One other random music thing, I like because Yoko Shimomura was brought back, her version of the SMRPG versions of the Mario 1-1 and 1-2 themes are the ones from SMRPG. I'm not sure how many people notice because there's like a billion versions of those songs, but they feel like they are going for that version.
The underground one is less similar admittedly, its mostly how the extra instruments in the background that kick in that makes it feel similar.
@N00BiSH@kkslider5552000 Super Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi (and the Paper Mario RPGs however I don’t think that is the same people) have such good music. It’s sad Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi stopped getting follow-ups.
Since this is Mario RPG discussion, what games count? New Paper Marios aren’t considered RPGs even by Nintendo (besides of course TTYD remake). Also do Mario + Rabbids count?
I count Super Mario RPG, the Mario & Luigi games, all the Paper Mario games, and the Mario & Rabbids games. Yeah, the more recent Paper Mario games aren't technically RPGs, but they still fall under the "Mario RPG" umbrella so they count for me. The Mario & Rabbids games are tactical RPGs so I'd count them too, even if I'd personally rank them low due to not liking the genre very much.
@StarryCiel Yeah just being under the Paper Mario name (since it started out as an RPG series) gives them a free pass. I always thought of Mario + Rabbids as RPGs however I feel like its a lot different from SMRPG, Paper Mario 64/TTYD, and Mario & Luigi.
@FishyS TotK does not seem like an RPG to me, that is odd. With Origami King it is missing some key traditional RPG elements, but a case can be made for it to be an RPG either way.
@FishyS TotK does not seem like an RPG to me, that is odd. With Origami King it is missing some key traditional RPG elements, but a case can be made for it to be an RPG either way.
Yeah, Zelda has always had one of those 'does it count as an RPG' arguments, especially newer zeldas. It has a story, npcs, side quests, a permanent leveling system (e.g. stamina and hearts). Fundamentally RPG is a broad term, even traditional since the old RPGs came in multiple very different flavors.
@FishyS Yeah it’s got some key elements, but I never really think of it as an RPG for some reason? Maybe it’s because of the battle engine? I know some RPGs don’t approach battles the same, but from the RPGs I play, they usually have some turn-based combat styled battle along with the other RPG elements.
Funnily enough, I always thought of The Origami King as being kind of a Zeldalike, barring the turn-based battles. It has a very similar brand of exploration and progression, especially during the blatantly Wind Waker-inspired fourth chapter.
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