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Topic: Industry Insights - Discussing the Gaming World!

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Haruki_NLI

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Octane

@BLP_Software It's part of a bigger problem I think.

It doesn't explain why we're still getting big AAA games that don't have micro-transactions (MTA). To me it seems to be more publisher specific. They just add them because they can, not because they need them. For them it's just another way of making more money off their games; easy short term profits.

I think that the "free"-games market on mobile and the relatively cheap games on Steam also play a part in this. Some of my friends don't ever buy games at full price, not even €20, because it's "too expensive", when you can get a copy for a few bucks on Steam, a free game on mobile or just download a pirated version. MTAs could be used as a way to milk the so-called "whales" to make up for the potential loss in customers that are waiting for a price drop instead. Maybe...

Octane

Haruki_NLI

@Octane Thats a good point. As I said, its one reason but publishers could do it for other reasons. Simple greed, is actually very plausible.

As I said, I wabt to promote discussion of whatever topics pop into my head, and this is why.

I can try and work out why my course required it, and why its becoming commonplace by looking at whats happening but the reasons you gave are just as feasible.

This was just the first topic, of course. Ill try and throw more viewpoints in for future entries.

Thanks for reading too! Didnt think anyone would.

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Octane

@BLP_Software Why not ask them? As a university course, I guess it's never a bad thing to have experience with. If you ever end up in the mobile business, where micro-transactions are pretty much the only viable way of keeping your game profitable, it may be a useful thing to learn about. Unless they're actually teaching you how to implement them in more ''traditional'' portable/home console games, that's a bit weird indeed.

Octane

Haruki_NLI

@Octane The requirement was for consoles/PC.

And yeah, I did ask. I figured on one hand its good to learn about.

On the other hand tbis topic keeps popping up. They want us to make games for Xbox/PS4/VR/PC, and there is constant demand to put DLC/MTA in our proposals. It HAS to be part of the game.

When teaching they say it's one major requirement of a game. They also teach that you need a large intricate story. Ive had marks docked for not focusing on story in an assignment to make a game.

Then again they also said GBA counts towards GB sales because its the same thing.

Honestly I could have a long list of ways this course has left me either very confused or bashing my head off a wall.

And thats if they arent teaching us about CGI in movies or interactive magazines or mobile apps (That are actually mobile websites).

...Yes I realise my unuversity career has been wasted with these people.

Now Playing: Mario & Luigi Brothership, Sonic x Shadow Generations

Now Streaming: The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom

NLI Discord: https://bit.ly/2IoFIvj

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Octane

@BLP_Software Has to be one weird university

I mean, I understand learning the importance of DLC for example, or learning the importance of a story in a video game, but requiring it... That's weird. Assuming your teachers aren't that dense, you could easily point them to Tetris, a game without a story at all. I mean, those arguments aren't that difficult to counter.

Anyway, I shan't go too far off-topic, back to MTAs!

Octane

Haruki_NLI

@Octane Hey, you wanna know the most head wall banging thing they did?

For that interactive magazine (Game design, not sure how it relates), we had to take an aspect of the world and predict how it would be in the future, any length of time away. So I figured, sure, why not, NX has just been name dropped, I have an idea.

I said based on other industries like laptops and phones, things get more and more portable. I also noted, even diagrammatically, that Nintendo historically has peripherals to play handheld games on a console, and even console games later ported to handheld systems. In recent times, the time a game takes to hit a handheld is reduced quite considerably.

I said based on those facts, based on Wii U having an aspect of portability, based on how consumers are consuming media via portable devices, that Nintendo would create a hybrid system, that allows home console games anywhere.

They said it wouldn't happen and I didn't get marks for that aspect.

That's the kind of stuff I'm putting up with for a few months more.

I gave up trying to counter them (This was in my first year) because they wont listen. They don't have much respect for me since Nintendo has me lined up to developer for their systems, and it's a Sony partnered uni and they want to push us to them.

I'm a defiant little sucker ain't I?

But yeah MTAs, not sure what the next topic will be. Any ideas?

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NaviAndMii

[Edited by NaviAndMii]

🎮 Adult Switch Gamers: Thread | Discord | Guilded

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Octane

@NaviAndMii Some things haven't changed though, the ''concole cycle'' has always been from 5-7 years. That's still the same. You don't need to buy the PS4 Pro if you already own a PS4, there are no exclusives (I'm looking at you new 3DS..), same is true for the Scorpio. Just another option for those who have a 4K TV.

DLC is different from MTAs. If done right, DLC can offer more value than the base game; Mario Kart 8 and The Witcher 3 are great examples of DLC done right. MTAs don't belong in €60 games in my opinion. They don't offer anything substantial, and they only exist to milk the userbase who can't resist the temptation to buy that skin, or get some extra in-game currency. Things that used to be part of the base game in the form of rewards.

You also talk about the annual franchises and the lack of innovation. Well, the former has always been part of the industry, remember Mega Man on the NES? That will never change and I don't see why it should disappear, if anything, it'll ruin the franchise by overexposing the public to that franchise, and people will get tired of it. They're only hurting themselves in the long run. The innovation? Well, you forgot to mention VR. I don't know about these so-called innovative ideas. Most of them come and go. The reason why motion controls are a thing again is because the Switch features them out of the box, but I wonder how long they will market that aspect of the system if the motion control aspect isn't what sell the system.

Anyway, that wasn't the point of this thread though, but I had to reply.

Octane

Haruki_NLI

@Octane The thread can discuss anything really. @NaviAndMii brings up great points. Last gen was somewhat of an anomaly, with the recession in no doubt playing a part.

I feel DLC can be done right. Just not in the way my uni pushed it. Navi mentions that they had the same kind of thing. Do it for the marks. Some of what I have been taught is very good to know. Others....is a bit mismatched and some aspects of making a game I straight up taught myself, while some things they taught have nothing to do with anything.

But to relay this to a personal note, when developing PRIME (Full name to be revealed) I did think, would DLC work? In theory, yes. Will I do it? Probably not. I'd be just as happy launching a complete product and if the fancy or demand comes, make more and add it on. My problem comes with funding. I haven't ot a job to save up funds from, nor will I crowdfund if I cant guarantee release on the target platform (Switch), so it's a rough spot for monetisation, so in one respect, MTAs are a good thing, but I wont do it, because the game wont be a fit for it, nor does it suit what I wish to do.

So, I was thinking in a day or two write up the next topic for this thread and I was thinking, since y'all seem to have some interest in this, what if it covered what us young developers are being taught, the practices and quality of the teaching we receive, and how it will shape the future of the industry? I can relay what information we are given and then discuss what it means, what relevance it has, and how it will shape future games.

I can tell you right now though, don't expect any positive words on Nintendo in it. When I say I am a stand out amongst them in that I not only want to work with them, but exclusively, I really mean it.

Would you guys like that to be topic 2 in a few days?

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NaviAndMii

@Octane Yeah, I may have gone off on a tangent there ..I just enjoyed @BLP_Software's post and felt the urge to share my perception of the gaming landscape! I'll keep this brief so we can go back 'on topic'

I worry about PS4 Pro exclusives (although, you're quite right, there are none yet...or even announced! Maybe I'm just a pessimist!) ..there's just potential to divide the player base there that I'm concerned about.

DLC and MTA's are okay, if done right - if DLC represents value for money, that's a good thing...if it doesn't, people won't buy it! ..devs have to strike a fine balance with MTA's - like I say, GTAV, in my opinion, is an example of MTA's done right: the MTA's pay for the free DLC, the MTA's also offer no competitive advantage to the purchaser...I can't really see many problems with that model - but there are examples of bad MTA's too!

You're probably right about franchises on reflection...touché with the Mega Man example!

..as for innovation, I meant more at the point of diminishing returns - once consoles and TV sets have reached the point where and upgrading offers a barely-noticeable difference, consumers will be less inclined to do so. When gaming reaches that point, the leaders in the industry will have to rely more and more on a unique selling point to stand out from the competition. They'll no longer be able to rely on 'this is the most powerful console ever', because that won't matter to the consumer - so they'll have to find other ways to entice them.

EDIT: Just saw I missed a post while I was typing - topic 2 sounds good @BLP_Software

[Edited by NaviAndMii]

🎮 Adult Switch Gamers: Thread | Discord | Guilded

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Octane

@BLP_Software I think that's how DLC should always work. Finish the game, make sure you're satisfied with the final product, and don't leave anything out. If you still have ideas left after you're done with the game, add them in as DLC. Don't do any day-one shenanigans, that's the stuff that's most off-putting to people, even though it may result in higher profits. But if your game is good, people will be back for sure when there's more content available.

I do think DLC is considerably different from MTAs though (also a reply to @NaviAndMii). One represents an add-on; a good amount of playtime is added through one or two DLC packs. MTAs on the other hand are nothing more than cheap cash-grabs, because the publishers know there are people that will end up buying them. Capitalism, I know, but I still think they're a disgrace when they're included in a €60 game. I already paid full price for the game, so seeing the publisher cut out small chunks of the game and offering them for a euro or dollar each is revolting in my opinion.

Octane

Ryu_Niiyama

What about optimization? I know that the consumer market is crying "bigger, better, faster" with a boatload of industry ignorance to go along with it but it feels like devs aren't really producing games that utilize current hardware instead of just complaining that it needs to be more powerful to make it work. Yet we are getting games with more bugs, frame rate issues, poor netcode, and quite frankly given the obsession with graphics poor textures resolutions as well. Considering that many of the AAA games tend to reuse assets but STILL have severe optimizations issues I'm starting to wonder where the ball is being fumbled here. Is it the annual dev cycles so many of the paper chasing publishers are demanding? Derth of talent in the industry? Back room politics gone awry?

Taiko is good for the soul, Hoisa!
Japanese NNID:RyuNiiyamajp
Team Cupcake! 11/15/14
Team Spree! 4/17/19
I'm a Dream Fighter. Perfume is Love, Perfume is Life.

Haruki_NLI

@Ryu_Niiyama I'm gonna cover this in Topic 2 in a few days. I think my have a reason.

@NaviAndMii @Octane

Next topic in the thread is going to be on what we are being taught at university. Believe it or not, it answers all of Ryu's questions about optimisation or lack thereof.

And the news aint hot. So hang tight, I'll have a piece on that shortly!

Now Playing: Mario & Luigi Brothership, Sonic x Shadow Generations

Now Streaming: The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom

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Haruki_NLI

Now Playing: Mario & Luigi Brothership, Sonic x Shadow Generations

Now Streaming: The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom

NLI Discord: https://bit.ly/2IoFIvj

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Ryu_Niiyama

I need a drink. Virgil's root beer on the rocks please.

I've had a general idea of how the new blood of the gaming industry was being shaped. I have a few buddies that got game design/dev degrees (NONE work in the industry now because of most of what was said above) and a few of my friends that are in game writing feel like they have no soul. So yeah. This doesn't give me confidence in gaming as an entertainment medium and I've been seeing for years a great deal of (optimization is my major point of contention. As a lot of games could run on more systems with less stringent hardware requirements if people actually cared about optimization and testing.) missteps and (I can't think of a AAA non Nintendo game that I've been really, really excited for. Even the ones I buy day one I expect a number of issues that for any other product I would deem unacceptable.) inconsistencies that are making me less and less enthused about the hobby as a whole. I'm not walking away yet but I will likely be exiting from one of the major hardware manufactures next gen (MS seems to be on the chopping block for me. I wish they would just make an XBOX OS so I could buy the games I want and not buy their paperweights.) and focusing on retro gaming/backlog. I feel like the industry is growing into an unsustainable fashion (not enough talent, too much executive meddling, overhead costs, system parity issues) and I think either we are going to keep seeing an output shrinkage (either for quality or quantity) for the majority of devs or an outright crash once again. Perhaps we shall see a shift in focus at some point to bring quality back to the forefront. I do feel like programming education is hit or miss in university. I was required to minor in computer science for the Astrophysics major but I've taught myself way more than I'd learned in class and I went to a pretty good school. However I'm seeing that a lot of programming is just "getting it to work" and structure and elegance are lacking. Seeing as programming is a logic based language that really shouldn't be the case but I see it even in my current work. SQL Devs that can't query worth anything and pasting too many joins together when other functions work with less margins of error.

That being said, I do still think there are pockets of sunshine and competency in the industry. I still mostly enjoy being a gamer and it can be one of my most rewarding hobbies at times.

Thank you for giving more insight into your experiences.

Taiko is good for the soul, Hoisa!
Japanese NNID:RyuNiiyamajp
Team Cupcake! 11/15/14
Team Spree! 4/17/19
I'm a Dream Fighter. Perfume is Love, Perfume is Life.

Haruki_NLI

@Ryu_Niiyama You're very welcome. Sorry this one took so long to get out. God knows I've been wanting to share this before.

I'm not getting my degree. I have come to accept that as has my family. And I am actually appaled to here that some of your buddies have gone through this too.

I value how fun a game is to play. I will hit 60/30FPS at the cost of it being 1080p if one of the uni PCs it' being marked on cant hit that due to a bottleneck. I sit and I work for hours but performance isn't marked outside of it runs.

In a way, I am very happy to be a part of a community that accepts developers and their work for what it is: Masochism. Another thing I am happy about is that, even with my doubts and self-loathing, I had the guys to reach out to Nintendo of all things. And it worked.

So I kind of....sit frustrated really. I'm holding on, very stringently, to a set goals for my game. None of which have really been covered in university. I am striking out on my own and in many respects that is terrifying.

But I absolutely was not going to be a guy who plans DLC from a conceptual level, and be shunted along a conveyer belt to Sony for VR and experiences I wouldn't be happy with, being told that I can only want to work for certain things because they don't like the others.

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