Topic: Coronavirus outbreak

Anyone else find it interesting like much of society has started acting like the virus is beaten and we're all ready to move on, while thousands still die from it every day and it is spreading like crazy still in the US, Brazil, Russia and India?

People can get used to anything. I am starting to think that COVID-19 is just here to stay. We just have to get used to the risk of infections from now on.

@Heavyarms55 That's been the situation since March. But we were going from a point of zero awareness, zero restrictions, so it was spreading like wildfire without people realising. Hence all the talk about 'flattening the curve'. It wasn't about beating the virus, it was about managing the load on the health services (and politicians saving their skin from all the flak of massive death figures).

Now the spread, in most countries, going by official figures, is somewhat controlled, and awareness is up, which makes it manageable.

But the virus has always been likely here to stay unless some wonder vaccine and testing products are produced to allow us to eradicate it. But even with the best science can muster, if eradicating it is at all realistic, it's likely to take years to achieve, given how invisibly, silently and readily this thing spreads.

@Tasuki

That is because you still have a job. Furloughed employees such as you & I were the exception.

@ogo79

That is called insurance fraud which can lead into legal trouble. Not only people who are caught committing insurance fraud will have to pay back their unemployment but fines as well and possibly jail time.

In your case, it seems you still have a job and took sometime off to stay safe. It is probably best to let the unemployment office know this which I assume you already done. It also maybe best to educate yourself about your unemployment laws in your area.

@kkslider5552000 @Dezzy Yeah, I'm going to go back and retract my comment with that hydroxychloroquine study that was released on the Lancet. I've heard Neil Degrasse Tyson talk about the peer reviewed journal world, and it's always been full of noise. It's not as perfect as pristine as a lot of people think. Real emerging truths require lots of data, lots of studies & sources, and time. The Lancet is right to retract it if it was bogus. That's what a proper peer reviewed journal does. The problem is when bogus/flawed studies are not retracted.

As far as I've seen there still isn't credible data to back up the hyrdroxychloroquine effectiveness against covid-19. Which would mean it's still anecdotal, at best - not a basis for doctors to prescribe it for covid-19 symptoms. If evidence emerges that it's effective against covid-19, I very much welcome it, since my goal is truth. And, effective treatments for deadly covid-19 symptoms would be nice. I don't care where it comes from, as long as it works.

@Heavyarms55

Lockdown in the US is basically over now. The political dynamics of it has guaranteed that. The people who were against the lockdown from the start were all conservative/libertarian types. Then the people who all ignored the rules for protest marches were liberal/progressive types. That leaves no major mainstream voices who have any legitimacy to say you need to remain locked down even longer.

Legit saw pictures of accounts that said quarantine during the pandemic is that it's their right to go out and stuff, while the moment people protested immediately said that "government told you to stay in, so you stay in"

like... wow. Some people are wack. (This is pointing out to same account, not the ones that said nothing during quarantine or said nothing during this protest)

@Heavyarms55 It's a disgrace - they keep "opening" things, the public is acting like it's all out and about back to normal. Vacations, travel, tourism, nobody's afraid of the disease they're just annoyed at restrictions. And half weren't obeying it anyway most of the time which is the cause of the problem. Suddenly, despite a disease that went from 1 city to global crisis in 65 days, now that there's only a few hundred cases in every single postal code it's suddenly safe!

@gcunit Frankly that statement is and has always been the single most idiotic one that ever could be said. The pubic can't deal with mass illness from this disease, period. They had the chance to prevent that and they squandered it through completely absent enforcement. They now have hospital beds so it's fine. Great. I don't want to end up in a hospital bed because everyone else wants to party. If they have the right to assault me because they want to have fun, then I am owed the right to assault every last one of them until none remain. Your idea, while absolutely not unique to you and is accurately stating what many officials stated early is pure madness plain and simple, and if we were going with that solution, I'm starting to think "do nothing" and go with heard immunity was the right choice all along. Because this choice IS that choice, only taking a detour to launch the second great depression first. It absolutely does need to be contained, and this far in, still could and should have been. There is no material reason it could not be, short of a lack of willpower to actually enforce that containment.

Overall, while I've been critical of Beijing in many posts I've come away from all of this actually respecting, if not envying Beijing. They were right and I was wrong. Freedom and self governance was a mistake and can not exist. Given the opportunity humans will serve their own whims with defiance. The American experiment is an utter failure, as is the very concept of freedom or democracy. Humans need to be ruled, absolutely. It is the only method by which any society can actually function without each individual pulling others down for not even their own survival but their own amusement. China has done this mostly right after their initial failure. I do not like so much of their methods, and yet, as I observe with my own eyes what happens without such methods, I've learned to understand and appreciate those methods. It's not a government, or group, or party, or country I've learned to despise, but a plurality if not majority of all the individuals around me. When up against the wall, they showed who they really are, and it is not a people I want to exist anywhere near.

@NEStalgia Can you be more specific about which part of my post your referring to? Which statement?

@gcunit " Hence all the talk about 'flattening the curve'. It wasn't about beating the virus, it was about managing the load on the health services "

That is not an acceptable strategy. That has never been an acceptable strategy. And I'm not pointing fingers at you, I know you're echoing what many officials have stated. That doesn't make it less idiotic. If it's not possible to do otherwise, fine. But not a single passenger plane should be in the air ever again, not a single tourist trap should be open ever again, anywhere, until that situation changes. PERIOD. "You have to be placed in elevated danger because WE have decided not to abandon our fun-time" Great, now what's permissible for me to do to YOU to give me a fun-time? I have some ideas...

Down with freedom is bit of an over action to the virus, for all of the complaints about some people’s actions I’ve seen truly selfless, heroic and humanitarianism from others.

@NEStalgia I appreciate you clarifying that you weren't pointing at me, because I wasn't promoting that as the 'right' plan, just stating what the plan seemed to be.

But... I am tempted to contest your attitude about retribution. The 'plan' governments implement, externally at least, will always be about trying to do what's best for the majority. In tough situations, that might mean risk increases for a minority, but I don't see how that justifies an individual striking back. It's not like you're being personally targeted, it's just an unfortunate side-effect that happens to impact you more than others.

It's quite understandable that an individual would do whatever it takes to protect themselves in the face of danger, but it's not some selfish partying/protesting teenager's fault that you may be genetically predisposed to being at greater risk from the virus than they are. Them's just the breaks.

@Dezzy Here in eastern Pennsylvania(close proximity to philadelphia, which had a fair number of cases.), we just entered an intermediate phase ("yellow phase") that begins easing restrictions. But close contact businesses are still not permitted to open here - hair cutting/salons, spas, nail care, movie theaters, gyms, indoor bars(are restricted occupancy or still closed, I'm not clear). I think outdoor dining has reopened, but still restricted. New York City area is doing something similar, I believe.

I saw this article a couple weeks ago about hiding, manipulating covid data in a couple states. Since this is the misinformation age I'll admit, I haven't seen anything else confirm or deny the story. This source is a CBS local news station, which should be trustworthy. https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/states-accused-of-manipulat...

Every time I've seen an infection spike reported here in the US, (Erie county Pennsyvlania, for instance) I never hear medical explanation for the cause(granted, I haven't watch news in almost a week because we lost power from a storm while all these protests are going on). However, I have noticed Tokyo Japan recently traced their spikes to night clubs/bars in the past week. (NHK World News -TV)

@Heavyarms55 @Dezzy Just reinforcing what you guys were saying, as well, but this is from an NYT article about attitudes on returning to offices:
"Willy Walker, chief executive of Walker & Dunlop, a commercial real estate financing firm, said managers of his 40 offices plan a wide variety of approaches to office life in the midst of a pandemic. In states like Texas or Florida, he said, everyone wants to go back to the office. In New York and California, employees are much more concerned about returning.

“In the blue states, just two to three people want to go back in,” Mr. Walker said. “And in the red states, just two to three people don’t want to go back in.”"

The virus is literally based on your political affiliation here. If you're a Republican the virus is no threat at all, just a flu, and life should have continued as normal from the beginning. If you're a Democrat life should have been restricted but only to the degree and time period for which your leaders tell you, but only as long as you don't have unrelated political concerns at which point you abandon all restrictions and act the way you chastised the Republicans for acting from the beginning. If you're an unaffiliated germophobe like me, you just learn to loathe absolutely everyone.

@gcunit Yes, I do apologize if I sounded at first like I was chastising you in particular. It's that policy/strategy that is infuriating, not your stating of it.

That said, there's a difference between doing what's right for a majority even if some are placed in risk. That would be requiring food processing to operate even amidst the inherent dangers for staff, warehousing, manufacturing, healthcare, etc, etc. That's a hard, but necessary decision that puts some in risk for a greater good.

Opening vacation sites, recreation sites, allowing parties, and re-opening offices that don't actually need to be open, where one that chooses not to recreate and party is forced to be among those recreating and parties is not, never has been, and never will be even remotely acceptable. Essential for the greater good is one thing. Night life and tourism are not that. The industries that get hurt and the people hurt by those industries getting hurt by that loss is choosing harm for some for a greater good as you suggest. But the reality now is they're prioritizing the amusement of the self-absorbed above the safety of those around them, then forcing others to be among them.

"no more than 2 in an elevator, don't take public transit, don't carpool, bike or walk to work (bike or walk? Most Americans have an hour daily commute each way by CAR!)" If these are the guidelines (that will be unenforced and nobody will adhere to).....that tells me we should NOT be opening parties, tourism, and recreation areas.

But it is being "personally" targeted. It is the people who prioritize them doing "what they want regardless of the cost to others", with a defiant and almost mocking attitude toward those who are threatened by their actions. They are "personally" targeting an entire category of people who are not cavalier as they are. They are, undoubtedly, enemies risking material harm to others. We should be building prison skyscrapers for them. Or volunteering them to work meat packing. They want to be among others in close quarters? Great, we've got the best seat in the house for you.

" but it's not some selfish partying/protesting teenager's fault that you may be genetically predisposed to being at greater risk from the virus than they are. Them's just the breaks."

Now that one I will disagree specifically with you on. If they are the cause of the problem - they are the cause. If I selfishly light a firecracker outside a heart patient's window, it's not my fault their heart couldn't take the shock. Them's just the breaks! I plead innocence, I was just having some fun.

Yep we should give up freedom and democracy because the country with its factories fully reopened making plastic junk and most of its tourist traps fully reopened (including Disney) reported 3 new cases in a country of 1.4 billion people.

A totally believable number considering that Wyoming a state with less than 1 percent of the population of China has around 4 times the amount of new cases.

But China's always a reliable source right, no concentration camps to speak of in China according to the CCP /s

Has anyone seen promising safety guidelines for getting a haircut? Or is it being done reliably without spreading infection? The physical contact of cutting someone's hair seems troubling to me when we still don't have treatment for deadly symptoms or a vaccine. And non-medical masks help, but they are still vulnerable. People from around town visiting one person with close physical contact, I havne't seen any data or models of this working safely.

I cut my own hair, but my mom has early stages of COPD, and she's desperate for a hair cut, and angry salons haven't been reopened in the area. With a life of smoking, and early COPD, getting covid is potentially a kiss of death for her.

@heavyarms55 I tagged you because I was curious if you have seen anything positive in Japan regarding getting a haircut. @thanosrexxx What have you seen in your country?

@Toy_Link Oh, I agree with your distrust of their official statements on the matter. But also keep in mind they pretty much blockaded their own outbreak city and left everyone inside to fend for themselves like an Arkham clone. Barbaric...but....also effective on a way that can't be denied, agree or disagree with the method. In fact, right along the lines of gcunit's "tough decisions/sacrifices made for the greater good" concept brought to it's natural end result. Imagine if LA/Seattle/NYC had been blockaded to the extreme Wuhan was to the no one enters/exits no one leaves their front door status that Wuhan was, how surrounding areas and the rest of the country may look very different right now.

Except where Wuhan behaved in an orderly, subordinate fashion, NYC people would have just started eating each other. Potentially based on party lines.

I've been very outspoken about Beijing policy right in line with your own post....until now when I can see how people react when not held to that authoritarian control. The myth of freedom works only until you get to the point that those exercising their "Freedom" endangers others, and only until the moral fabric of a society unravels to the point that a large portion of population can't be entrusted to use their freedom to NOT exercise that freedom when it can affect others (and themselves!) even if they feel invincible. When that moral fabric get to the point that significant if not majority populations are more than willing to throw everyone under the bus to appease their own whims and wishes, "freedom" doesn't work anymore. It's freedom for the selfish (and in this case, stupidity is a required element - the selfish aren't immune to pathogens) to abuse and strip freedom from the rest. Tyranny without uniforms. When your "freedom" means having the right to strip me of mine because you "can" - the very concept no longer exists. In a sense, right or wrong, agree or disagree, that's a subtext of the whole protest/riot movement as well.....one group that sees it purely along ethnic lines, but it's really a broader spectrum issue. Not just white/black, but the empowered versus the unempowered for many reasons, ethnicity being simply one of many.

"I'm not worried about an illness that virtually no one is immune to, and therefore I've decided you're worth risking for my entertainment" is not a ringing endorsement for the concept of freedom. It sounds much like any other tyrant. And it's worth noting the US founding fathers specifically addressed freedoms that restrict the freedoms of others in their original writings. It's not an unforseen problem. They just had higher hopes for the ethics of the society itself that didn't appear to pan out.

The situation is now that one does not have the freedom protect themselves from non-essential risk of simply conducting daily life, because those around them are using their freedom to increase that risk. Your freedom means I have none. Isn't that a theme that's, literally, setting the cities on fire at the moment?

I don't disagree with your points RE China, but at the same time, seeing an unrestrained populace at their worst, first hand, I now have to view them in a different light. One I thought I never would. They are indeed abusive. But is there really a difference between an abusive government and an abusive population if you're not one of the abusers in either situation?

I mean, the solution to this problem is probably to not have very unprepared and/or blatantly evil governments be in charge of things that will lead us to this scenario in the first place, but y'know.

If people are gonna start switching their allegiances to countries based on their response to the virus then everyone should looking to New Zealand who are now virus free rather than China.

this was my other thought. Well not exactly this, but good on New Zealand for competency.

Well that part was a given, so +1 there.

@jump Not exactly allegiance switching. I can't stand either country at this point. Or really the planet. But I now understand and have respect for the necessity of authoritarianism and their argument against freedoms. Not because of how the respective governments handled the virus at all. Because of how the PEOPLE behaved when put in this situation. Their mettle was tested and they showed that all their care about is their own pleasure-centers. You know the old cliche of "I don't have a problem with country XX's people, just their government?" I'm at the point it's the opposite. I now see the government as simply a mirror of the thinking of the public...I suppose just as a representative government should be. All that ugliness from government is a mirror of the rotted heart of the public itself.