@Dezzy What I find incredibly scummy is the refusal of some medias to air the president's briefings on the virus, after they kept on whining about how non-transparent he was being. I don't care about the personal vendettas they have against him, just focus on the facts; instead of giving out stupid "gotcha" questions.
@ThanosReXXX $20 says "your CDC" is likely following ours (believe it or not, despite how incredibly stupidly we handled all this, a lot of the world is still peaking over our shoulders to copy our test answers....no idea why...but they are...) Your policy on it there echoes what ours was before the CDC went all Patcher and updated to a new right answer.
Keep in mind that they're advising reusable cloth masks, not disposables, and that they be sanitized after use (which is stupid because you can't find sanitizer of any sort anywhere....bleach is long gone.) So not hundreds per house, and not going through tons of them unless you're out working essential work (which should hopefully supply masks as well but usually doesn't.) - It's not for sitting at home, it's for when out in public.
And remember much of the US is NOT locked down like we are here. This is the hot zones so it's bad here. I know people in nowhereville in the heartlands that seem to have no idea there's even much of a problem, they're out and about almost like normal, save for adding the mask and gloves. There's social distancing, but not strict distancing. And even in the hot zones, people seem to be shrugging it off all too regularly requiring even tighter restrictions.
From the perspective of the information we're seeing here (not just the media announcements/CDC but just doing a lot of my own reading overall), your version of the information and risks sounds 2 weeks out of date. Reading your paragraph is like going back in a time machine to what we thought the situation was a few weeks back. Granted, you guys could be the right ones....and our new truths could be goose chases, but it's a weird step to the past for me. The threat seems to be more well established than mere "5 feet apart, wash your hands, no masks" - the methods of spread, lingering droplets, pre-symptomatic spread, etc have changed that thinking, at least here, so far. I'm very curious to see if you guys update to the same thinking within a few weeks.
Supermarkets. I do hear there are some that are limiting customer amounts. The huge ginormous warehouse chain places like Target or Walmart. But the normal supermarkets are a free for all, shove the carts, impatiently push past people kinds of environments they always were.
Though I also wonder how crowded your supermarkets are in general. In normal times they're a sea of crammed in people here. Spacing it out would be equivalent to food rationing. Most people would be waiting, literally, all day, and still not get in. And I'm in an area that has a lot of supermarkets too. But they're also right off a major highway so people stop through them en route between lots of other places. Which makes it extra appealing right now. And that much more fun when you see all the NY plates in the parking lot..... Free Corona Light with every 10 minute order.
@Enigminator yeah, between media, "anything Trump says must be used as a chance to attack" and politicians posturing on both sides of the aisle, it's frightening and mortifying that even in a plague, in the US, politics comes first and foremost above all else. Even a plague is just an opportunity to use for political advantage.
@NEStalgia Well, you've just lost your $20. CDC was doing nothing while our local virus containment agency was already in action. We don't act upon what happens in the States, seeing as the virus was already here. If it would have come from the States TO Europe, then that might have been the case.
I have no idea how my information or my relaying the situation here sounds like old news. We are updated daily, either by the news or by a now weekly speech from our prime minister, and this is what we do and use over here, and it works. It was just mentioned in the 6 o' clock news that new intakes on Intensive Care are slowly on the decline, so whatever we're doing differently from other countries, I actually couldn't give a crap, but it's most definitely working. So, no, we will definitely NOT be updating to such a weird scenario. We'll probably be slowly reducing measures again, while the US will still be having people pouring into the ICU's all over the country. You're about a month behind in symptoms, methods and results.
And all of that only with social distancing, staying home unless you ABSOLUTELY need to go somewhere, and regularly washing your hands. It would seem that staying AHEAD of this as much as possible, instead of letting it fester and then come to a situation where you should indeed all be wearing face masks, is the far more desirable scenario. And our health care system is also far better than in most other countries, so where that is concerned, I'm also pretty grateful to be where I am right now.
And besides all that, the Dutch have historically always gone their own way, regardless of what other countries think, say or do. They're basically the Nintendo of countries...
@ThanosReXXX If it weren't festering you wouldn't need to be holed up at home.
I get your point, and it's true, but the reality is at this point, in part thanks to the US, but the West in general continuing business as usual until people started dropping like flies, it's everywhere. And we started locking down around when you did. Actually before you did if I'm not mistaken. Of course that's up here in the awful area....parts of the US still aren't locked down, so we can't even look at the US as a whole. Just our area up here in the 9th circle of Inferno. And, of course, they still don't actually block interstate travel and have no intention of doing so. You "should" stay home. But people from NY and all else are still jumping between states all the time. And that's not going to be stopped. Even in the locked down areas. So yeah, the masks are a good plan..... because we don't have REAL lockdowns, given grocery, like I've been saying all along.
@NEStalgia No, no offense, but you guys were late/after the fact with just about everything, no small thanks to the idiot in the Oval Office, who initially thought it would actually already be over by now...
And over here, they actually weren't conducting business as usual. They basically nipped it in the bud, or as close to the bud as possible, specifically BECAUSE of what was happening in the countries around us, and mainly Italy. We've isolated the elderly, and for the rest simply stuck to the rules implemented and the advise given to us by our local health department, and so far, that seems to work.
But as mentioned, there is not one measure or one truth, because all countries are different, people are different and ways of living are different. Heck, even the air itself is different, what with us basically living beneath sea level, and you guys above sea level. And then there's a MASSIVE variety in isotopes/areas that we simply don't have, so the virus can go about it's business more easy than over here, where the entire country can use and/or benefit from one set of rules and one way of handling things, whereas over in your neck of the woods, each state can basically apply their own rules and take their own precautions, for better or for worse.
And of course, over here, it's a much smaller land mass, so that certainly also helps keeping things in check, which is also why comparatively more moderate means such as now implemented, although we DO have this annoying lock down, seem to work just fine as is, over here.
So, in short, no need for the face mask promotional speech, because it's not working, at least not over here, where it simply isn't necessary...
I can understand that with SO many more people, and every state or maybe even every city basically just doing whatever they want or what they think is right, that it actually IS more advisable to take more preventive measures, but over here we'll do just fine without, you'll see.
I'd say just check the numbers to see how we hold up against other European countries and the US and Asia, and you'll see for yourself. Mind you, we've still got plenty of victims to mourn, but as mentioned before, the number of new cases being taken to Intensive Care is slowly decreasing as of today, and we also see more people getting out of it alive by now, so I'd say that we're already past the tipping point over here, whereas in the States, the worst is more than likely yet to come, sadly enough.
Either way, I wish all of you over there the best, and I also wish you strength and stamina, and above all patience, to endure these truly annoying and strange times.
And of course, over here, it's a much smaller land mass, so that certainly also helps keeping things in check,
But also one of the densest countries in terms of population. So I'm actually kinda relieved it's going as ''well'' as we're currently doing. Could've been much worse.
In the US, if it's not a serious relevant medical professional like CDC(Centers for Disease Control & Prevention) or National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, I don't need media figures/politicians/political talking heads to sugar coat & spoon feed me political leanings on top of serious professional health strategies, solutions, info, and data.
I'm really looking forward to when we have enough PPE, medical equipment, treatments, vaccine, and solid data on how covid spreads.
@NEStalgia
Glad you liked it, I was talking to a courier about all this and he mentioned bat soup and I suddenly thought of Batman spreading Covid-19. The only way I could get the thought out of my head was to put it in LEGO form. I've still got a couple of spin of thoughts that I'm planning on working on over the Easter weekend, but it requires a couple dozen photos this time around.
People might find it insensitive joking about this situation, but I'd rather be dark humoured than just dark.
What's the consensus on masks at this point? I keep reading mixed things. I've come to the conclusion that they're pretty much essential if you 1. Have the virus, 2. Live with someone with the virus, or 3. Are exposed to the public by being an essential worker. What about the rest of us? Some sources say they aren't needed while others pretty much say to wear them whenever you leave the confines of your property.
This question totally hasn't come around because I don't have a mask and need to do a grocery run later. Not at all.
@ThanosReXXX Oh there's no doubt that it was blundered catastrophically here. There's no redeeming the idiotic statements from the White House just before everything started hitting the fan, downplaying it as a non-issue. Though it's an oversimplification of just how badly things went here. It was ignored across all levels of bureaucracy from municipalities, through health organizations/corporations through federal. I certainly can't forgive the stupidity of the white house, (not limited to the president but also all levels of advisors around who critically failed (maybe intentionally? A little plague to boost politics can't hurt, right....we're sure it can be contained just fine, good chance to let our enemy walk into it and look the fool). But that was only the tip of the iceberg. All levels of bureaucracy, corporate, and the public itself is involved in that stupidity. Or arrogance, more like.
Here, even in mass perception, even myself, while we were all aware of it existing elsewhere, and even existing in Seattle/LA area, there simple was no virus. It was not a threat. Not a risk. It's not something that was considered, thought about, mentioned. It simply had no public mindshare or presence at all. Days before lockdowns business and organizations were still planning trips through Europe - annoyed at travel inconveniences due to that virus that Europe has. The sense was that, that's a Europe problem, but going there and coming back will be fine as always. Travel plans among the public were just being sorted out. Nobody talked about a virus, as there simply was no virus problem to even talk about. It didn't exist. At all. It was never going to exist. Here, life was normal. One week you heard a few people talking about it, mostly mocking these people stocking up on food like the end of the world was coming. It was a punchline. Crazy people believed a problem was coming like crazy people do every year. It's just the news as always. The next week you hear a few people say they may have bought a few supplies just because everyone else was. Then there was the first East coast death. March 11/12. Traffic monitors detected the spike. That was the moment everyone panicked and mass bought everything in sight.
Apparently infections were irrelevant, it wouldn't affect "me" - but ONE person dies somewhere in your time zone and then it's time to panic. Nevermind the thousands already dead....different timezone so it was less risk.
We literally went from "no such thing as a serious virus will exist here or does exist here, shame other countries have that problem" to "look at those crazy people that actually believe the news", to "lockdown everything and kill all jobs" in the space of about 15 days. Before March 8 or so we basically lived in a world in which there was no such thing as CV19 - at all. Except for conversation here about E3.
BUT that's around the same time you went into lockdown too, and our numbers were about a week or 2 behind Europe, so I'm not sure, despite that, it was that much later (in this part of the country - LA/Seattle were already locked down more BEFORE then, and many places still aren't.
Most of the real problem is shared between the whole Western world, the US not as an exception. The permissibly of intercontinental travel without heavy restriction and quarantine is THE single issue that would have prevented a need for ANY other issue anywhere outside China, short of a potential slow migration through Russia into Europe. As long as they were sending flights full of people worldwide with no quarantines on both ends of the trip, what did they think was going to happen? They basically want pandemics, otherwise they wouldn't allow that.
But yeah, well, for number comparisons we'd need to compare all Europe against all US for it to be a relevant landmass and population comparison, not just Ned. And we're about 2 weeks behind the European spread (Italy was 13 days ahead of Germany I believe, and we're at least a week behind them.), so we're at different points. It'll vary by state here as well with GA apparently, according to Hobit, not taking it seriously, and the NY corridor being "slightly less locked down than Wuhan" for the past month (but with a MAJOR weak link of food stores.)
I think NJ is ordering that everyone ALWAYS wear a mask when out now (2 weeks ago everyone was told NEVER to wear it unless you're sick.....) and is restricting supermarkets to 50% capacity - but that's still a far cry from your supermarkets. Capacity is based on fire exit accessibility and sprinkler design for fire safety. So you're still looking at 100+ people in most stores. And given how the stores are laid out, if you're in there less than an hour and a half it's a miracle, so that's going to be a loooooong wait.
EDIT: Forgot to say above that I think the biggest problem that fueled and underlies the problem in the response here among the public, is after decades of the press becoming ever bigger political hacks, heavily slanted to their own internal politics, and becoming ever-more tabloid than serious news organization, willing to inflate and exploit everything for ratings, the public at this point, even more than I thought has absolutely ZERO regard for the media. The standard learned reaction here is that the more the media talks about something the less important and serious it must be. We more or less, even subconciously go out of our way to filter out whatever the press talks about from reality and isolate it as sensationalism. I knew that was the case, but this highlights that that was true even more severely than I thought. It seems MOST of the public, regardless of their politics has no trust at all for the media. And for good reason. What, after their 30th time screaming "plague" from the rooftops they actually were right about this one? And why would we believe them more this time than last time u until we see it?
This plague is, as much as a health crisis, a reflection, here, on the total breakdown of trust in any and all institutions here. Nobody listens to media and officials because nobody believes them ever. They squandered all their good faith years and years ago. Can't say I'm too different there. Yeah this one seemed worse. But generally, I outright dismiss anything that comes through the media or officials out of hand as well. It's well learned. When they lie every time for many years, you'd be a fool to believe them ever, even if the got one right once.
@Tyranexx The consensus is that there's no consensus, and that the consensi may be altered for political, economic, and supply goal reasons.
Originally CDC said no masks, it's worse if you're not sick. Now CDC OFFICIALLY recommends always wearing masks in public. NJ state now REQUIRES masks in public always. Europe, apparently, according to Thanos, still recommends NOT wearing them.
So, basically, they're all making it up as they go along hoping to get it right and guide the public where they want them in supply usage.
If you DO wear a cloth mask, remember do NOT touch it, wash hands after touching it, and disinfect it after removing it.
Now the fun question is: HOW do you disinfect it if you can't obtain disinfectant anywhere? And if you can't disinfect it, it's still worse than not using one.
@Tyranexx@NEStalgia The thing is, the masks do help. They mainly prevent you from spreading it, and depending on the mask, it may also prevent you from getting it. Of course, we're still talking about chances, nothing is guaranteed. The main problem now is that there are not enough masks in hospitals in some locations, so it's not recommended you buy them up yourself when it could be more useful to someone else.
I personally don't wear a mask. The entire point is to lower the curve of infections. So you're not going to prevent it spreading at all; and I do think that I will catch it at some point, if I already haven't had it. Just keep your distance, don't gather in large groups, wash your hands every now and then, and you're doing enough to minimize the spreading. And stay healthy.
@Tyranexx Yeah, unfortunately, since the virus is brand new, they haven't had enough time to test & gather data to pin down exactly which conditions spread infection, be it environmental or human (outdoor vs indoor, ventilated vs non ventilated, humidity, climate)(which people are more susceptible & why, which human interactions spread it, etc). So, all they have are educated guesses based on previous viruses until they can observe enough cases, test, and collect enough data. - which, as we've seen, appears to take longer than a few months. I honestly don't know if they need a year? Unfortunately collecting controlled data samples of hundreds of thousands of people (or more) from around the world in different conditions takes time.
They are just now becoming certain that smoking creates an enzyme in the lungs that makes smokers more easily infected with the virus. And these people get some of the worst symptoms - which leads to fatalities.
@NEStalgia Yeah, I can imagine the commotion. We get the news about it every day here, and my favorite late night talk show has now basically become COVID-daily, and the hostess of that show is half-American, like me, so she shows and talks a lot about what's happening on your side of the pond.
And as mentioned before, which you've now basically confirmed, it really sounds like all states for themselves, and screw the others (and the media). They can basically all do what they see fit to do, regardless of what's happening in a neighboring state, let alone a state on the other coast.
On a side note: what I meant by look at the numbers, is of course to look at it relatively, so percentage-wise. Today, like yesterday, numbers are stabilizing and/or going down over here, so I think it's safe to say that if we keep that up for the next couple of days, that some cautious optimism is warranted.
Side note #2: did you happen to see Canada's president Trudeau's statement on TV? He agrees with me on the usage of face masks: https://twitter.com/Gray_Mackenzie/status/1247549755946864640
And here's what Canada's Chief Medical Officer had to say:
Chief Medical Officer Dr. David Williams said in a press conference this afternoon that the Ministry of Health has “never recommended” face masks. Williams acknowledged that while other cultures practice the use of face masks, it would not benefit Canadians to use them according to The Star.
He added that one is better off to avoid putting their hands near their face than the use of face masks. Williams also recommended taking standard fly protocols to protect yourself from the coronavirus.
Face masks quickly and easily become dirty from lack of washing stated Williams, making them even more habitable for germs inside the mask, rather than what could be on the other side.
So, you see? That's what I meant with there not just being any one, single truth or measure against this virus and its effects, because it's different in practically any and all countries.
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