@ThanosReXXX If it weren't festering you wouldn't need to be holed up at home.
I get your point, and it's true, but the reality is at this point, in part thanks to the US, but the West in general continuing business as usual until people started dropping like flies, it's everywhere. And we started locking down around when you did. Actually before you did if I'm not mistaken. Of course that's up here in the awful area....parts of the US still aren't locked down, so we can't even look at the US as a whole. Just our area up here in the 9th circle of Inferno. And, of course, they still don't actually block interstate travel and have no intention of doing so. You "should" stay home. But people from NY and all else are still jumping between states all the time. And that's not going to be stopped. Even in the locked down areas. So yeah, the masks are a good plan..... because we don't have REAL lockdowns, given grocery, like I've been saying all along.
@NEStalgia No, no offense, but you guys were late/after the fact with just about everything, no small thanks to the idiot in the Oval Office, who initially thought it would actually already be over by now...
And over here, they actually weren't conducting business as usual. They basically nipped it in the bud, or as close to the bud as possible, specifically BECAUSE of what was happening in the countries around us, and mainly Italy. We've isolated the elderly, and for the rest simply stuck to the rules implemented and the advise given to us by our local health department, and so far, that seems to work.
But as mentioned, there is not one measure or one truth, because all countries are different, people are different and ways of living are different. Heck, even the air itself is different, what with us basically living beneath sea level, and you guys above sea level. And then there's a MASSIVE variety in isotopes/areas that we simply don't have, so the virus can go about it's business more easy than over here, where the entire country can use and/or benefit from one set of rules and one way of handling things, whereas over in your neck of the woods, each state can basically apply their own rules and take their own precautions, for better or for worse.
And of course, over here, it's a much smaller land mass, so that certainly also helps keeping things in check, which is also why comparatively more moderate means such as now implemented, although we DO have this annoying lock down, seem to work just fine as is, over here.
So, in short, no need for the face mask promotional speech, because it's not working, at least not over here, where it simply isn't necessary...
I can understand that with SO many more people, and every state or maybe even every city basically just doing whatever they want or what they think is right, that it actually IS more advisable to take more preventive measures, but over here we'll do just fine without, you'll see.
I'd say just check the numbers to see how we hold up against other European countries and the US and Asia, and you'll see for yourself. Mind you, we've still got plenty of victims to mourn, but as mentioned before, the number of new cases being taken to Intensive Care is slowly decreasing as of today, and we also see more people getting out of it alive by now, so I'd say that we're already past the tipping point over here, whereas in the States, the worst is more than likely yet to come, sadly enough.
Either way, I wish all of you over there the best, and I also wish you strength and stamina, and above all patience, to endure these truly annoying and strange times.
And of course, over here, it's a much smaller land mass, so that certainly also helps keeping things in check,
But also one of the densest countries in terms of population. So I'm actually kinda relieved it's going as ''well'' as we're currently doing. Could've been much worse.
In the US, if it's not a serious relevant medical professional like CDC(Centers for Disease Control & Prevention) or National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, I don't need media figures/politicians/political talking heads to sugar coat & spoon feed me political leanings on top of serious professional health strategies, solutions, info, and data.
I'm really looking forward to when we have enough PPE, medical equipment, treatments, vaccine, and solid data on how covid spreads.
@NEStalgia
Glad you liked it, I was talking to a courier about all this and he mentioned bat soup and I suddenly thought of Batman spreading Covid-19. The only way I could get the thought out of my head was to put it in LEGO form. I've still got a couple of spin of thoughts that I'm planning on working on over the Easter weekend, but it requires a couple dozen photos this time around.
People might find it insensitive joking about this situation, but I'd rather be dark humoured than just dark.
What's the consensus on masks at this point? I keep reading mixed things. I've come to the conclusion that they're pretty much essential if you 1. Have the virus, 2. Live with someone with the virus, or 3. Are exposed to the public by being an essential worker. What about the rest of us? Some sources say they aren't needed while others pretty much say to wear them whenever you leave the confines of your property.
This question totally hasn't come around because I don't have a mask and need to do a grocery run later. Not at all.
@ThanosReXXX Oh there's no doubt that it was blundered catastrophically here. There's no redeeming the idiotic statements from the White House just before everything started hitting the fan, downplaying it as a non-issue. Though it's an oversimplification of just how badly things went here. It was ignored across all levels of bureaucracy from municipalities, through health organizations/corporations through federal. I certainly can't forgive the stupidity of the white house, (not limited to the president but also all levels of advisors around who critically failed (maybe intentionally? A little plague to boost politics can't hurt, right....we're sure it can be contained just fine, good chance to let our enemy walk into it and look the fool). But that was only the tip of the iceberg. All levels of bureaucracy, corporate, and the public itself is involved in that stupidity. Or arrogance, more like.
Here, even in mass perception, even myself, while we were all aware of it existing elsewhere, and even existing in Seattle/LA area, there simple was no virus. It was not a threat. Not a risk. It's not something that was considered, thought about, mentioned. It simply had no public mindshare or presence at all. Days before lockdowns business and organizations were still planning trips through Europe - annoyed at travel inconveniences due to that virus that Europe has. The sense was that, that's a Europe problem, but going there and coming back will be fine as always. Travel plans among the public were just being sorted out. Nobody talked about a virus, as there simply was no virus problem to even talk about. It didn't exist. At all. It was never going to exist. Here, life was normal. One week you heard a few people talking about it, mostly mocking these people stocking up on food like the end of the world was coming. It was a punchline. Crazy people believed a problem was coming like crazy people do every year. It's just the news as always. The next week you hear a few people say they may have bought a few supplies just because everyone else was. Then there was the first East coast death. March 11/12. Traffic monitors detected the spike. That was the moment everyone panicked and mass bought everything in sight.
Apparently infections were irrelevant, it wouldn't affect "me" - but ONE person dies somewhere in your time zone and then it's time to panic. Nevermind the thousands already dead....different timezone so it was less risk.
We literally went from "no such thing as a serious virus will exist here or does exist here, shame other countries have that problem" to "look at those crazy people that actually believe the news", to "lockdown everything and kill all jobs" in the space of about 15 days. Before March 8 or so we basically lived in a world in which there was no such thing as CV19 - at all. Except for conversation here about E3.
BUT that's around the same time you went into lockdown too, and our numbers were about a week or 2 behind Europe, so I'm not sure, despite that, it was that much later (in this part of the country - LA/Seattle were already locked down more BEFORE then, and many places still aren't.
Most of the real problem is shared between the whole Western world, the US not as an exception. The permissibly of intercontinental travel without heavy restriction and quarantine is THE single issue that would have prevented a need for ANY other issue anywhere outside China, short of a potential slow migration through Russia into Europe. As long as they were sending flights full of people worldwide with no quarantines on both ends of the trip, what did they think was going to happen? They basically want pandemics, otherwise they wouldn't allow that.
But yeah, well, for number comparisons we'd need to compare all Europe against all US for it to be a relevant landmass and population comparison, not just Ned. And we're about 2 weeks behind the European spread (Italy was 13 days ahead of Germany I believe, and we're at least a week behind them.), so we're at different points. It'll vary by state here as well with GA apparently, according to Hobit, not taking it seriously, and the NY corridor being "slightly less locked down than Wuhan" for the past month (but with a MAJOR weak link of food stores.)
I think NJ is ordering that everyone ALWAYS wear a mask when out now (2 weeks ago everyone was told NEVER to wear it unless you're sick.....) and is restricting supermarkets to 50% capacity - but that's still a far cry from your supermarkets. Capacity is based on fire exit accessibility and sprinkler design for fire safety. So you're still looking at 100+ people in most stores. And given how the stores are laid out, if you're in there less than an hour and a half it's a miracle, so that's going to be a loooooong wait.
EDIT: Forgot to say above that I think the biggest problem that fueled and underlies the problem in the response here among the public, is after decades of the press becoming ever bigger political hacks, heavily slanted to their own internal politics, and becoming ever-more tabloid than serious news organization, willing to inflate and exploit everything for ratings, the public at this point, even more than I thought has absolutely ZERO regard for the media. The standard learned reaction here is that the more the media talks about something the less important and serious it must be. We more or less, even subconciously go out of our way to filter out whatever the press talks about from reality and isolate it as sensationalism. I knew that was the case, but this highlights that that was true even more severely than I thought. It seems MOST of the public, regardless of their politics has no trust at all for the media. And for good reason. What, after their 30th time screaming "plague" from the rooftops they actually were right about this one? And why would we believe them more this time than last time u until we see it?
This plague is, as much as a health crisis, a reflection, here, on the total breakdown of trust in any and all institutions here. Nobody listens to media and officials because nobody believes them ever. They squandered all their good faith years and years ago. Can't say I'm too different there. Yeah this one seemed worse. But generally, I outright dismiss anything that comes through the media or officials out of hand as well. It's well learned. When they lie every time for many years, you'd be a fool to believe them ever, even if the got one right once.
@Tyranexx The consensus is that there's no consensus, and that the consensi may be altered for political, economic, and supply goal reasons.
Originally CDC said no masks, it's worse if you're not sick. Now CDC OFFICIALLY recommends always wearing masks in public. NJ state now REQUIRES masks in public always. Europe, apparently, according to Thanos, still recommends NOT wearing them.
So, basically, they're all making it up as they go along hoping to get it right and guide the public where they want them in supply usage.
If you DO wear a cloth mask, remember do NOT touch it, wash hands after touching it, and disinfect it after removing it.
Now the fun question is: HOW do you disinfect it if you can't obtain disinfectant anywhere? And if you can't disinfect it, it's still worse than not using one.
@Tyranexx@NEStalgia The thing is, the masks do help. They mainly prevent you from spreading it, and depending on the mask, it may also prevent you from getting it. Of course, we're still talking about chances, nothing is guaranteed. The main problem now is that there are not enough masks in hospitals in some locations, so it's not recommended you buy them up yourself when it could be more useful to someone else.
I personally don't wear a mask. The entire point is to lower the curve of infections. So you're not going to prevent it spreading at all; and I do think that I will catch it at some point, if I already haven't had it. Just keep your distance, don't gather in large groups, wash your hands every now and then, and you're doing enough to minimize the spreading. And stay healthy.
@Tyranexx Yeah, unfortunately, since the virus is brand new, they haven't had enough time to test & gather data to pin down exactly which conditions spread infection, be it environmental or human (outdoor vs indoor, ventilated vs non ventilated, humidity, climate)(which people are more susceptible & why, which human interactions spread it, etc). So, all they have are educated guesses based on previous viruses until they can observe enough cases, test, and collect enough data. - which, as we've seen, appears to take longer than a few months. I honestly don't know if they need a year? Unfortunately collecting controlled data samples of hundreds of thousands of people (or more) from around the world in different conditions takes time.
They are just now becoming certain that smoking creates an enzyme in the lungs that makes smokers more easily infected with the virus. And these people get some of the worst symptoms - which leads to fatalities.
@NEStalgia Yeah, I can imagine the commotion. We get the news about it every day here, and my favorite late night talk show has now basically become COVID-daily, and the hostess of that show is half-American, like me, so she shows and talks a lot about what's happening on your side of the pond.
And as mentioned before, which you've now basically confirmed, it really sounds like all states for themselves, and screw the others (and the media). They can basically all do what they see fit to do, regardless of what's happening in a neighboring state, let alone a state on the other coast.
On a side note: what I meant by look at the numbers, is of course to look at it relatively, so percentage-wise. Today, like yesterday, numbers are stabilizing and/or going down over here, so I think it's safe to say that if we keep that up for the next couple of days, that some cautious optimism is warranted.
Side note #2: did you happen to see Canada's president Trudeau's statement on TV? He agrees with me on the usage of face masks: https://twitter.com/Gray_Mackenzie/status/1247549755946864640
And here's what Canada's Chief Medical Officer had to say:
Chief Medical Officer Dr. David Williams said in a press conference this afternoon that the Ministry of Health has “never recommended” face masks. Williams acknowledged that while other cultures practice the use of face masks, it would not benefit Canadians to use them according to The Star.
He added that one is better off to avoid putting their hands near their face than the use of face masks. Williams also recommended taking standard fly protocols to protect yourself from the coronavirus.
Face masks quickly and easily become dirty from lack of washing stated Williams, making them even more habitable for germs inside the mask, rather than what could be on the other side.
So, you see? That's what I meant with there not just being any one, single truth or measure against this virus and its effects, because it's different in practically any and all countries.
@NEStalgia That's exactly my problem: mixed signals from the CDC and other authorities.
@Octane There's clear evidence that the masks help prevent the spread if one has it, I'm not disputing that. I just wonder if they're as effective at preventing you from getting it. As you typed, it all seems up to chance. I'm not against people wearing them if they're ill, at risk, or feel more comfortable doing so. As you also mentioned, I don't want to strain the medical supply chain right now.
I'm doing the best I can to not contract and spread it; I'm staying home for the most part and exercising in isolated areas when I do leave my property. Besides the occasional rare errand for food or other essentials, I'm not getting out much. I expect to get it at some point, but I'm less concerned about getting it vs. passing it on to someone more vulnerable.
@WoomyNNYes It does seem to be an evolving situation as we learn more. The best consensus I can find is that it can be spread by contact with contaminated surfaces (and the life of the virus on said surface tends to vary depending on what material it is) and from coughing, sneezing, or the general expulsion of infected saliva within close proximity.
Interesting piece on smoking, by the way. That's a find I wasn't aware of. I personally can't stand tobacco smoke...or most smoke really.
@Octane Quite frankly the next person that says "lower the curve" is going to get their head on the end of a pike. They had BETTER prevent spread and not just lower the curve. If it's 100% spread they probably should have just kept going and let it spread. The idea of "have enough hospital beds" makes no sense here. You can't afford the hospital bills anyway even with good insurance. If I'm hospitalized due to everyone else's reckless travel I'm not paying a CENT on those bills ever, so the doctors better hope to kill me off if they want money out of it. And I'm hunting down every last person that ever traveled internationally and shaking every last cent out if even if I have to hold them for ransom. THEY caused it. It's their bill. I own them. If it comes to hospital bills it doesn't matter if I'm live or dead, I'm really dead either way. And everyone that ever traveled overseas will have been my murderer. That simple statement sends me into rage beyond what you can imagine.
@Tyranexx As a nurse, I can tell you wearing the mask order from the CDC was to cast a larger net as people who should be wearing them (those that are infected) weren't. There's a very specific way to go about wearing and discarding these masks, called Aeseptic or Clean Technique, that people just don't understand. You HAVE to change the masks every 2 hours and N95s every 8 hours, or when wet, or they are NOT effective. Us healthcare workers are so frustrated seeing people wasting supplies on the streets when the masks will NOT protect you from the virus. They're meant to keep the virus from spreading.
You also have to wash or sanitize your hands the second you take the mask off, and also not touch it while wearing it. Once it's touched, it's compromised. People are wearing these things for DAYS and it's just a bacteria trap. Wear that mask all you want, but if you somehow did come into contact with someone who had COVID, you touch the mask constantly, you just got it. Don't wash your hands after discarding it (either in a washer if it's reusable or in the trash) you just got it. I don't want to be near ANYONE wearing a mask. I'd rather be near people who aren't wearing one. If they sneeze or cough into that thing all that bacteria comes flying out of the mask towards you after wearing past the recommended time.
I'm a pediatric nurse, and my wife is a nurse working in a nursing home in Seattle, and we can't tell you how stupid people are out there. It's pretty bad. We don't wear masks as we just wash our hands when we get home or in a bathroom before leaving the store. That's way more effective than wearing a mask and/or gloves. People are also wearing the same pair of gloves all day and touching everything they own. Once gloves come into contact with any liquid or new object they have to be discarded. We don't wear the same gloves all day. We do our care and each and every type of care gets a new pair of gloves. Change a wound on limb, new gloves. Start an IV, new gloves. Give a medication, new gloves. All with the same patient even. We're also not even allowed to leave the patient's room wearing any gloves or go INTO a patient's room wearing gloves.
@ivory_soul if it's not a crummy homework assignment, to help us mask newbies, it would be great if you could paste a link for proper mask use. How to know when to discard a mask or maintain one. I haven't tried searching the net yet, but sometimes search results can be overwhelming with garbage results.
@ivory_soul I work in health care administration and I’ve been saying what you said for weeks. It’s giving people a false sense of security, and they don’t know proper usage. We’ve seen the folks at grocery stores, fidgeting with masks and gloves then putting items in a cart they didn’t wipe. We’ve seen the US Senate Minority Leader not even cover his nose with a mask, then touch the thing bare handed to give a speech. If folks aren’t even going to make the effort to understand or use PPE properly, they need to stop using up the supply.
#MudStrongs
Switch Friend Code: SW-7842-2075-5515 | My Nintendo: HobbitGamr
@HobbitGamer Wipe a cart with what? There's no disinfectants available anywhere. That's what gets me about all this sanitizing requirements. The materials that are recommended don't actually exist.
I'm not actually sure where people actually got any masks to begin with, they've been gone for ages, but are somehow requirements to leave home now... And nobody has any sanitizer...so we can guess where that goes.
The gloves seem harder to mess up though (where are people getting THOSE either? And it's frustrating because I've always had boxes around for food prep - and now they're unavailable.) I swear normal order history should be taken into account. People who buy this stuff normally should get first pick. The panic buyers should be denied access to things they didn't previously regularly buy. You built your way of life, you can suffer with it. Leave me to mine which I lived before the disaster you people created and should be perfectly sustainable through it. But no, they pooped their beds and now want to lie in mine.
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