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Topic: Rick Aristotle: "Nintendo Will Never Be Great Again"

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Bankai

81. Posted:

tendoboy1984 wrote:

WaltzElf wrote:

I think some people should remember that the games industry isn't a hobby for the people that make games.

But it used to be a hobby. People used to make games for fun, because it's a creative outlet. And for the hundreds (thousands?) of small indie developers out there, it still is a hobby.

Game design can be a hobby, just like drawing, writing, photography, singing, etc. It's simply another form of creativity.

... sometimes I wonder whether you're just a massive troll, or you actually believe this tripe.

The people who are working at Nintendo are not doing it because it's their hobby. Everyone, except apparently you, would have realised I wasn't talking about the teenage kid in his room programming RPG Maker games when I made that comment.

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LordTendoboy

82. Posted:

@WaltzElf

But the way you phrased it made it seem like being a game designer is boring useless work. There are plenty of game designers who love what they do. It allows them to be creative. Game design can be considered an art form (debatable, but just look at some of the stuff out there), just like drawing, painting, writing, pottery, animation, music composition, etc.

The people at Nintendo love what they do. Read any of the Iwata Asks interviews. People in those interviews say their jobs are hard and demanding, but they still love the work they do. Miyamoto would have retired long ago if he no longer felt his work was worthwhile. Doing a job can be fun if you enjoy it. Honestly, if I had a choice between pushing carts at a grocery store, and being a game designer, I'd choose the game designer job in a heartbeat. It's something I've always had a passion for, and I love being creative.

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Bankai

83. Posted:

tendoboy1984 wrote:

@WaltzElf

But the way you phrased it made it seem like being a game designer is boring useless work. There are plenty of game designers who love what they do. It allows them to be creative. Game design can be considered an art form (debatable, but just look at some of the stuff out there), just like drawing, painting, writing, pottery, animation, music composition, etc.

The people at Nintendo love what they do. Read any of the Iwata Asks interviews. People in those interviews say their jobs are hard and demanding, but they still love the work they do. Miyamoto would have retired long ago if he no longer felt his work was worthwhile. Doing a job can be fun if you enjoy it. Honestly, if I had a choice between pushing carts at a grocery store, and being a game designer, I'd choose the game designer job in a heartbeat. It's something I've always had a passion for, and I love being creative.

Loving what you do doesn't mean your job is a hobby. I love being a journalist. It's a creative, fulfilling career, where I get to do a whole lot of thinking and learn a whole lot while I work. It's still my job. I still get paid, and I still have the responsibilities involved in doing a job - I can't just go home because I don't feel like working today, and I can't just stop working on an article because it no longer interests me. I can't take weeks off to go do a different "hobby" when the fancy takes me.

Game developers still have a job to do. They can be very passionate people, but they're still working within businesses, and that comes with responsbilities. It's not just a hobby.

How the hell were you born in 1984 and still not know this?

Edited on by Bankai

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LordTendoboy

84. Posted:

@WaltzElf

Stop taking things at face value. I made a point and you still try to argue with me. Damn it man, can't you read between the lines? You take everything I say so literally.

My point is, people who love their jobs can find enjoyment out of the work they do. It's about doing what you love. Getting paid for it is just a bonus. They didn't HAVE to join the video game industry, just like you don't HAVE to be a journalist. They did it because it's something they enjoy, just like journalism is something you enjoy.

I want to be an animator, cause animation is something I have always been passionate about. I know being an animator can be very demanding, yet I am willing to put forth the effort, since I know in the end I will be doing something I love.

Turning a hobby into a career is what many people dream of. THAT is my point.

Edited on by LordTendoboy

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Bankai

85. Posted:

Stop taking things at face value. I made a point and you still try to argue with me. Damn it man, can't you read between the lines? You take everything I say so literally.

Then stop saying things that can be "taken the wrong way." It's your responsibility to say things that don't make you look silly. It's not the reader's job to magically guess what you really meant. It's called articulation.

My point is, people who love their jobs can find enjoyment out of the work they do.

No doubt they can. It's still work.

Let's go back to where this conversation started, shall we? I said "The people working in the games industry are not doing a hobby, ergo this is a serious business." You said "NO IT ISN'T, GAMES DEVELOPERS LOVE WHAT THEY DO."

Which is true. It's still work, and it's still not a hobby.

Getting paid for it is just a bonus.

No. You do not speak for every games developer out there. You do not talk for a fraction of games developers out there. Professional games developers love what they do, but they damn well do expect to be paid, properly, for their work. They have families, mortgages, cars, and they like to eat. If they weren't getting paid, if this was a hobby to them, they would have another full time job, and sure as hell wouldn't have the time to produce a game like Mario Galaxy or Final Fantasy XIII.

Book writers expect to be paid. Professional musicians expect to be paid. Film makers and actors expect to be paid. Fact. It's not a "bonus," at all. It's their job, whether they love the work or not.

They didn't HAVE to join the video game industry, just like you don't HAVE to be a journalist. They did it because it's something they enjoy, just like journalism is something you enjoy.

People do what they do because they enjoy it and they can make a living from it. No money, and they would do something else. Fact.

I want to be an animator, cause animation is something I have always been passionate about. I know being an animator can be very demanding, yet I am willing to put forth the effort, since I know in the end I will be doing something I love.

Cool. And you will only be an animator if you get paid for it, because at some stage you'll have bills to pay.

Turning a hobby into a career is what many people dream of. THAT is my point.

Which is where it stops being a hobby and turns into a profession, and becomes part of the business world. Q.E.D

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skywake

86. Posted:

For most software developers the gaming industry is just another sector. For most creatives the gaming industry is simply a different medium. Even if you're something like a texturing specialist at a big game developer would your job be that much different if you worked for Pixar instead? For the most part the jobs are the same in the gaming industry and outside. A developer has pretty much the same sort of job wiring code for Super Mario Galaxy as they would if they were developing bank transaction software. It's the same sort of "virtual mechanics" and it's the same creative thinking.

Sure the people making this stuff generally enjoy the end product but that doesn't make it a hobby. It's a job and it's not as magical as you think it is.

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RudysaurusRex

87. Posted:

Well... That son of F****** B****! I should kill him.

Nah, just kidding, but he does make me mad.

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Moorpheel

88. Posted:

I suppose it stops being a hobby when your boss starts bugging you with deadlines and wants a sequel after another :P

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WaveBoy

89. Posted:

skywake wrote:

For most software developers the gaming industry is just another sector. For most creatives the gaming industry is simply a different medium. Even if you're something like a texturing specialist at a big game developer would your job be that much different if you worked for Pixar instead? For the most part the jobs are the same in the gaming industry and outside. A developer has pretty much the same sort of job wiring code for Super Mario Galaxy as they would if they were developing bank transaction software. It's the same sort of "virtual mechanics" and it's the same creative thinking.

Sure the people making this stuff generally enjoy the end product but that doesn't make it a hobby. It's a job and it's not as magical as you think it is.

Ya, I think I'd be 1 million times happier designing 8-Bit Robot masters for Mega Man 11(just a random example) since I'd be using my actual talent, being creative and doing something i love rather than doing construction work with a bunch of red neck X-cons or working at a bank. A crappy comparison i guess. But you're comparing programing/coding to Bank Coding. TendoBoy was strictly talking about animation.....And there's no comparison whatsoever.

Even if it's still a job to others, some people do wake up everyday being bug nuts passionatte as hell based on what they're doing. I remember one of my teachers in Game Art & Design(Before I had to leave due to getting ill) had a talk with me about how much more fun it was to develop games back in the golden era of gaming. He was talking about some Sega Genesis Basket Ball title based on what I remember. His eyes lit up with joy the moment he talked about it. :p

But it seems the only way you can get any real creative input is if you go indie. if you're working at the bottom of the barrel at let say Ubi Soft or EA, and you mention a game idea that you have to them it's instantly 'theirs' That's what scares me.....Having zero creative input, after all I'm all about imagination and ideas, yet my art works is good enough to get it across. Plus, some of these guys were saying it takes around 10 years to hit that creative input spot, unless of course you go indie. And I'd never wan't to work for EA, i'd rather go for Ubi-Soft.

Edited on by WaveBoy

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LordTendoboy

90. Posted:

WaltzElf wrote:

Stop taking things at face value. I made a point and you still try to argue with me. Damn it man, can't you read between the lines? You take everything I say so literally.

Then stop saying things that can be "taken the wrong way." It's your responsibility to say things that don't make you look silly. It's not the reader's job to magically guess what you really meant. It's called articulation.

My point is, people who love their jobs can find enjoyment out of the work they do.

No doubt they can. It's still work.

Let's go back to where this conversation started, shall we? I said "The people working in the games industry are not doing a hobby, ergo this is a serious business." You said "NO IT ISN'T, GAMES DEVELOPERS LOVE WHAT THEY DO."

Which is true. It's still work, and it's still not a hobby.

Getting paid for it is just a bonus.

No. You do not speak for every games developer out there. You do not talk for a fraction of games developers out there. Professional games developers love what they do, but they damn well do expect to be paid, properly, for their work. They have families, mortgages, cars, and they like to eat. If they weren't getting paid, if this was a hobby to them, they would have another full time job, and sure as hell wouldn't have the time to produce a game like Mario Galaxy or Final Fantasy XIII.

Book writers expect to be paid. Professional musicians expect to be paid. Film makers and actors expect to be paid. Fact. It's not a "bonus," at all. It's their job, whether they love the work or not.

They didn't HAVE to join the video game industry, just like you don't HAVE to be a journalist. They did it because it's something they enjoy, just like journalism is something you enjoy.

People do what they do because they enjoy it and they can make a living from it. No money, and they would do something else. Fact.

I want to be an animator, cause animation is something I have always been passionate about. I know being an animator can be very demanding, yet I am willing to put forth the effort, since I know in the end I will be doing something I love.

Cool. And you will only be an animator if you get paid for it, because at some stage you'll have bills to pay.

Turning a hobby into a career is what many people dream of. THAT is my point.

Which is where it stops being a hobby and turns into a profession, and becomes part of the business world. Q.E.D

You know people can do this stuff on the side and still have normal paying jobs. That's what indie/garage developers do.

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zezhyrule

91. Posted:

tendoboy1984 wrote:

You know people can do this stuff on the side and still have normal paying jobs. That's what indie/garage developers do.

/cutepuppy

I think you're missing the point.

Edited on by theblackdragon

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skywake

92. Posted:

WaveBoy wrote:

Ya, I think I'd be 1 million times happier designing 8-Bit Robot masters for Mega Man 11(just a random example) since I'd be using my actual talent, being creative and doing something i love rather than doing construction work with a bunch of red neck X-cons or working at a bank. A crappy comparison i guess. But you're comparing programing/coding to Bank Coding. TendoBoy was strictly talking about animation.....And there's no comparison whatsoever.

I was talking about the same jobs inside and outside the gaming industry. Of course someone who loved drawing would be much happier designing than doing construction work, whats your point there? I was simply saying that there are jobs involving those sort of skills OUTSIDE of the gaming sector and they're just as much "not hobbies" as working for the gaming industry is.

I have friends who are professional animators, graphic designers, sound engineers, musicians and software engineers. None of them work in the gaming sector. Sure on social media you'll see their work spill out but, excluding maybe the musician, none of them have their job as a hobby. They could all work in the gaming industry instead but I honestly don't think it would make that much of a difference to what they actually do as a job........ infact I'm fairly sure a couple of them would rather work for the companies they currently work for than someone as "small" as Nintendo ;)

Edited on by skywake

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