Topic: Everything Star Wars discussion thread| How you doing, you old pirate?

@gcunit Ah, good catch. That moment is important, I agree. Thought it happened some time after that, for some reason.

That said, and unlike the other scenario from which I compared it to, it doesn't happen because of the situation. The scenario is not tailored to make that moment happen as a response, it could have happened at any other place. "I love you" "I know" is a powerful moment of sincerity because they think Han might as well be dead in a moment. Similarly, Rose points out to Finn how the Rebellion enables warmongers to exploit the weak and tells him her own backstory precisely because the scene takes place in a place built with that kind of money.

Some would argue it happens precisely because of the situation.

@gcunit Not seeing it. The situation is tense, but that's it, an arbitrary catalyzer. If that was it, it would be incredibly forced. It works because their relationship is slowly unveiled from the initial discussion on Hoth through the film and this is merely one step of the whole process but, as a step, is not great. Not bat either though. And to bring back the point of the example, the setting for that moment is certainly less relevant for both that moment of character development and for the overarching plot of the film than the unfairly criticized casino scene of The Last Jedi.

I mean, unless there's a relationship between the innards of a space worm and the particular kind of seduction of 1980s Harrison Ford that I'm not aware of.

That's a happy coincidence because all 3 of them could easily be cut too.

Although the silver lining was to hear youtuber Razorfist name Del Toro's character "Latino Calrissian"

Fire explosions and laser sounds in space. Yes they're silly and it doesn't help the realism of space battles, but at least these added effects don't intervene with the strategic manner of Star Wars space battles. The lightspeed collision raises a lot of questions, shouldn't all great assault ships be taken down with light speed? Could this have been done with the Executor? (The head of republic operation in the Empire Strikes Back) Sure the Lightspeed sacrifice was an impressive moment, but it seems to be messing with the somewhat established guidelines of space warfare.

Also I don't mind the Force being used in new exciting ways. But they're definitely overdoing it. I wouldn't be surprised if Rey started flying in the next movie... is it a bird?? is it a space ship?? No it's a Jedi!!

@Dezzy Quite literally everything in a movie could "easily be cut", that's a meaningless statement. They could have cut Han from Empire onward and save us the whole Jabba detour, but they didn't because they didn't want to, simple as that.

If you mean that it could be cut without affecting the rest of the film: sure, and that would make the main theme weaker and the characters thinner. Let's not equate "I don't care about this" with "nothing of relevance happens".

@Sir_Anthony

Also, about using the Force to fly

The worst thing that ever happened to the Force is the homogenization of abilities that the EU (and the prequels) brought. Every Jedi can do X, Y and Z, and every Sith can do X, Y and Z, and nothing more. Mix-matching or using new abilities in different ways? That's not how the Force works.

Reminds me of that one tweet by Dan Olson from Folding Ideas about how sad it is that Force Lightning became a sign of high space-wizardry instead of what it originally was: something the Emperor pulled out of his ass because he is a rat bastard.

My favourite silly thing that someone pointed out is after the completely absurd moment where Rose stops Finn sacrificing himself, he drags her unconscious body all the way down that battlefield (they were at the far end of it when they crashed) on a material that we've just been shown turns red when pressure is applied to it. So he somehow pulls her past all of the ATATs without being noticed while creating a very suspicious red trail across the ground. Lol

@MarcelRguez

It's not meaningless at all. "Easily" obviously has something to do with how much they're connected to the main plot and how much screentime they have.
Han is connected up with loads of main plot points after he's introduced and is probably on screen for about 2/3rds of the trilogy after being introduced. Not remotely true of any of those 3 characters.

@Dezzy Tell that to Suicide Squad or The Snowman. It can be done, quality of the end product be damned.

I don't remember Han doing anything particularly useful in Endor's moon (as in, nothing that other characters can't do). He tricks the imperials into opening the bunker, but that it, I belive? You could have easily given that idea to Leia and call it a day, simple re-writes would have made the whole Endor section work without him.

Oh, yeah, he also shoots that idiot imperial that only screams "halt!" at them without drawing his weapon. That's a bit of a goofy moment. And speaking of silly moments: remember when in ANH Vader is ricocheted out of the trench run because Han shoots down TIE fighter wingman #1 and the trauma of it all causes wingman #2 to crash into Vader? Good times.

Like, nobody is denying that the Finn/Poe/Rey trio of main characters isn't as tightly knitted as Luke/Leia/Han. Hell, Poe and Rey meet for the first time at the end of this film. That's entirely by design, though, the screenwriter decided for the protagonists to go their separate ways so they can have their own thing to do without overlapping with what the others are doing. Finn got the short end of the stick, obviously enough, but oh, well. As I've already brought up, at the end of the day is just another scene in Star Wars history that could have been removed without much hassle. I'm sure you can come up with much more poignant examples in every film if you give them as much of a hard time.

Lol I know. I noticed it purely because I hadn't realised they hadn't met.

@Dezzy To be fair, neither did I, lol.

The main difference is the that movie goers loved Han's character. People wanted to see him on screen and were cheering for him as he changed from smuggler cocky guy to a lovable fun character you could depend on. Audiences do not seem to have that affection for these new characters.

I actually really loved the new characters going in to The Last Jedi and left hating all of them.

The best thing about Rogue One is that now whenever I see the moon in daylight hours I instantly think 'Death Star!', do a sharp intake of breath, and then quietly under my breath say "You may fire when ready".

I went in being fairly positive about them. I thought it was obvious in Force Awakens that they hadn't come up with much of a role for Finn, but Poe and Rey could've easily become far better characters in this if they hadn't used them to teach the lessons of "Don't worry, you're already awesome at everything and have already beaten the only remaining villain in a duel." and "Try and do better at guessing what your superior's plans are, even though they easily could've told you."

You know, I rewatched Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars and the Force Unleashed game-movie I have on my laptop, and The Force was just as OP in those as they were in TLJ. I also rewatched the prequels and The Force was completely UP in those.

Honestly, the Force should be on the kind of level it was in Empire. Just right.

Yup. Even if that material isn't canon anymore, it still was part of the mythos for a good number of years, so it influences what other creators do with the Force. As far as Force-feats go, I don't think Starkiller TK-ing a star destroyer into the ground has been topped yet.

The Force is basically like imagination. It's only limited by the limitations you place.
Empire was showing the basics of the Force, so it was keeping things simple. Genndy's Clone Wars series, and even Force Unleashed, were about showing the Force at the height of its power, so naturally many over the top uses of it were seen. The Last Jedi, with a theme of letting go of the past to head for the future, used the Force in new ways but still with the feeling that it was similar. At least until the end with Luke, which is when the entire film had basically said 'this is now the future'.
So in a way, the Force is limited by what the story wants its theming to be.

Battle Meditation, the Thought Bomb, Darth Traya's controlling three lightsabers, Plo Koon's Electric Judgment, Kazdan Paratus' Junk golems, there's no shortage of unique, creative uses of the Force in Legends continuity, which brings us back around to Luke and why so many of us have a problem with his portrayal here.

I realized something a few days ago: we've seen Luke deal with the Kylo situation (or something akin to it) before in Legends canon--Jedi Knight II: Jedi Academy's Dark Side ending, a game that came out 15 years ago at this point (or 14 and some change, perhaps I should say). There Luke doesn't hesitate to admit his mistake, that he misjudged Jaden (the MC)'s character, but he doesn't just shut down, pack up, and call it quits because of that. He consoles Kyle, who flirts with the perspective espoused by TLJ Luke, and actually dissuades him from it.

These things reinforce something I've felt and have been saying from the very beginning: I don't know how much these new writers reference Legends material, either for consistency's sake or simply for research purposes, but clearly they ignore it at their own peril.

I'd also argue that the notion of "letting go of the past for the sake of the future" is precisely the wrong take-away to get from this film.

"Let go of the past; kill it if you have to," is a temptation offered by Kylo Ren, the villain, and ultimately a character at war with himself because deep down in his heart he knows the difference between right and wrong, the difference between Light and Dark, and merely WANTS to do wrong (perhaps for reasons yet to be fully revealed) while his conscience tells him, screams at him to do otherwise. Remember, in the end, the Jedi texts are shown to be safely in the Falcon implying that Rey took them with her before she left Ahch-To, thereby insuring that the next generation of Jedi won't be wholly self-made, and ignorant of and divorced from the foundational wisdom of their forebears.

As it should be, if you ask me. The writers hold the keys for the Holy Grail of all storytelling: a mysterious, permutable MacGuffin that due to its mystical nature affects everything in the universe. And its use is tied to morality too! It's a fantastic storytelling device, I don't see any reason why they should establish that rigid of a boundary around it.

The big mistake here is to think that any characterization of Luke outside of the movies is relevant at all in order to judge Luke's character in TLJ. The smaller mistake is presuming a significant part of the fanbase is even familiar with stuff like Jedi Knight II, of all things.

They are literally killing the OT protagonists one by one and de-centralizing the Star Wars universe from the Skywalker family, however slightly.

Independently of who puts that message forward in words (thematically, both Rey and Snoke are tied to it as well), the film is not afraid to side with it. Letting go the past is what allows Luke to go from inaction to action. And remember Yoda's reprimand as he lights the tree on fire? The whole point of that is that the books aren't important, they're just a fetish.

...which is precisely why Rey nabbing them is so weird. It would indicate a failure of judgement on her part: there is hope for the Jedi Order, but maybe there shouldn't be. Not for the old incarnation, at least.

I thought Finn had the potential to be the most intresting of all of the new characters, but they just seemed to rush him. He freed himself to quickly/easily from the Stromtrooper mindsight, could of played up the dead Stromtropper as being his friend and the close of the arc (from Stromtrooper to deserter to rebel hero) by defeating the Captain sparkle trooper seemed throwaway.