@MarcelRguez Knowledge of Legends continuity may not be necessary in order to draw conclusions about Luke's character, however those who have it simply have one more reason to be dissatisfied with his portrayal here along with the reasons the movie itself presents. Star Wars didn't just end when Ep. VI's credits rolled; the series didn't just go on hiatus for all the years between then and now. One's knowledge and experience with Legends will invariably influence their reception to what the new canon puts forward to some degree. Like I said before, I don't know much the new writers interact with Legends material while these scripts are being written, but they do themselves no favors by thinking it doesn't matter and they have free reign to do whatever, (if that's what they really think). Johnson thought he was being novel by putting Luke in a situation he's never been in before; anyone who's played Jedi Academy should recognize that that's not true.
Secondly, I guess the question to ask is: just what is "letting go of the past" actually supposed to mean? My understanding of Kylo's viewpoint is that everything that happened in the past is meaningless so do your best to ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, which is a far cry away from the essence of Luke's change of heart--what's done is done and he can't take it back, but his mistake is no longer the burden he originally made it out to be. And hope has always been a theme of the series; if there is hope for the Resistance, and the galaxy as a whole, then why can't there be hope for Jedi? And if the texts truly are "all that remain" of the previous Jedi tradition, then they need to be protected for their immense historical significance just much as the writings of any long-forgotten culture should. Rey's preserving the texts could simply be one more way for her to get know the legacy of which she's now a part; it does not at all mean that the Order will or must carry on exactly as it did in the pre-Empire days without the necessary reforms taking place. That's the entire point of history as an endeavor, learning from the examples of the past, doing better in the areas they fell short, and carrying on with what they got right. "You can't know where you're going without first knowing where you came from," as the saying goes.
(And by the way, how do you do italics on here? I tried copy-pasting from Word before, but it didn't keep my formatting.)
@SilverEdge92 Just for the record, I don't disagree with anything you say, at least in principle. You have to realize, however, that the people familiar with the EU as a whole are a tiny portion of the audience.
This is the SteamSpy page for Jedi Academy. Total owners: almost 2m. That's quite a lot of people, but still a drop in a bucket in the grand scheme of things, especially after taking into account that not everyone cares about continuity in this exact way, not everyone played the game despite buying it, etc.
That aside, I believe you're putting too much focus on how much Johnson's (or whomever the screenwriter was) scenario for Luke affects Luke and not enough on how it affects the new order of things. The whole "fallen student" thing is much more important as a backstory for Kylo than it is for Luke. Besides that:
There Luke doesn't hesitate to admit his mistake, that he misjudged Jaden (the MC)'s character, but he doesn't just shut down, pack up, and call it quits because of that. He consoles Kyle, who flirts with the perspective espoused by TLJ Luke, and actually dissuades him from it.
This was your main point, right? If I'm not misunderstanding anything, you're implying this characterization suits Luke better, especially since it came first.
The thing is, even if you disregard that one scenario forms part of the new canon and the other one doesn't, these are different situations, set in different periods of time in the life of the character and with different in-universe events preceding them. It's extremely hard to justify how something would be out of character, even if these events were part of the same continuity, with such a time gap between both and countless events interjected between both stories. That is not to say Luke doesn't have a series of traits that make him who he is, but he's allowed to evolve with the story. To make a comparison: Adam Jensen is still Adam Jensen regardless of your choices in the newer Deus Ex games. By adhering to the most basic black/white choices, Adam is either a trigger-happy, consequences-be-damned kind of military man, or a well-abiding agent that helps people in need. None of these characters is more or less "Adam Jensen" than the other, much like how no Luke is more or less Luke that another in context. Once you serialize a series enough (and of that Star Wars knows a thing or two), the story shapes the characters, and not vice-versa.
(As an aside, for as much crap superhero comics get in terms of convoluted continuity, at least the medium understands that once you bring new writers on board they're going to have their own take on the character, which you might or might not like as much as the previous one. There's certain limits as to how far you can stretch a character before breaking it, of course, but the gradation between extremes allows for a lot of variety, which is appreciated)
About your second paragraph: while I think the film does side with the argument Kylo makes, I also believe that motif runs differently for different characters. I also think it's a bit more complex than you're making it:
Kylo's viewpoint is that everything that happened in the past is meaningless so do your best to ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, but his mistake is no longer the burden he originally made it out to be
Kylo can't escape his past not only because of his deeds, but because of his Solo/Skywalker lineage as well. As you pointed out, he does have an "internal struggle" of sorts (it might already be solved by this movie), which he tried to dissipate through his emulation of Vader, effectively anchoring himself in the past. It's a facade that puts his struggle into display, that much is established repeatedly through both TFA and TLJ. So, for him breaking with the past is a sign of his newfound conviction, he's not so much ignoring what he's done as much as he's embracing what he's become.
And about Luke and at the risk of arguing semantics: that's still breaking with the past in my book. Luke doesn't adhere to Kylo's playbook, but he's also relieving himself from his own guilt in pretty much the same way. It's something neither Obi-Wan or Yoda did, to mention the other obvious examples of Jedi in exile, they decided to pass the torch onto a new generation.
I don't remember if it's explicitly stated by Luke in the film, but he believes the Jedi dogma to be flawed precisely because it seems to be hopeless. No matter how great the instructor or how legendary the lineage of the pupil (prophetic, even!), "the system" creates people like Kylo and Vader, which in turn bring ruin to the galaxy and all that. For what's worth, I don't think there's enough "historical perspective" in the new canon to determine how right or wrong Luke is but, if you have the films and only the films in mind, he does kind of have a point.
then they need to be protected for their immense historical significance just much as the writings of any long-forgotten culture should
Not sure if I agree, considering the little green wise man had no issue burning them to the ground in order to make his point. These are not presented as historical chronicles, but as a dogma that might have been flawed from the start and is in dire need of a reinvention. There's a lot of room for debate here and I see your point about needing the books to avoid those same mistakes, but I doubt they are (or will be) that important. Even if there's important info in them, if that's all there's left then the history of the Jedi is already lost, relatively speaking.
To do italics, just use (i) and (/i), only with brackets [ ] instead of parentheses ( ).
@Dezzy Some time before the events of Rogue One / A New Hope. The clone troopers had deficiencies as a result of cloning; accelerated aging etc., so they were abandoned in favour of regular trained soldiers. That's the excuse they came up with at least, that's what you get if you don't plan your prequels ahead and you find out it doesn't line up with the original material.
On a completely unrelated note. When is the super bowl in the US? I've heard rumblings that a trailer for the Solo film will drop. Sunday evening? Either way, it's confirmed we get to see the trailer on Monday as well.
@Octane The Super Bowl is on Sunday evening in the U.S. for pretty much the whole night, the pre-show begins around 5 or 6 P.M. and the post-show ends at midnight.
ThomGee
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@Dezzy I like Rogue One, I hope this one is more like Rogue One. I'm willing to give it a chance. And I don't think they can screw a story like this up. Rian Johnson isn't anyway near it either.
@MarcelRguez Well, it would be too obvious if they started marketing this film during the TLJ, then everyone would know they're milking it as much as they can. I think that's why we hadn't seen a trailer up until now.
@Octane Of course, I didn't mean to imply that. I'm saying they've been trying to keep a low profile because of the bad press, not because people might think they're milking the franchise
@MarcelRguez You mean the switch of directors last year? That's not uncommon in the industry. Creative difference, so they picked another director to warp up the filming and re-shoot some scenes. I believe the original directors wanted to turn it more into a comedy, and after TLJ, I'm glad they're gone.
@Octane ...which is usually symptomatic of a deeper problem and not at all that common. Don't you think not having a set tone during the filming process is a big enpugh issue already? That's one of the main issues that sank Justice League, and Disney themselves went through similar stuff with Ant-Man.
I'm waiting for the reviews on this one, is all I'm saying.
@MarcelRguez Well, you know what they say, a film is made two times, first during filming, and then during editing. They usually film way more than they ever need, the new director came in when most of it still had to be filmed, and they scheduled an extra five week for re-shooting. It's not something I'm overly worried about.
@Octane Funny you mention that, because the editor was fired as well.
The new director came in three weeks before wrapping up principal photography (for reference, that's around late June; the shooting began in February), so I'm not sure where you're getting that bit about most of it still having to be filmed. Thankfully, that also means they've had enough time to extend production and reshoot stuff, assuming they need around 7 months for post-production.
And again, just so we're clear, I'm not saying the film is an unsalvageable mess right because, honestly, who knows. What's been shared doesn't exactly feel me with confidence, but I'm not writing it off yet.
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