@Kiolu100 I totally get crashing being irritating. Iirc holding the enter key on computers (not sure what the equivalent would be on the Switch) basically skips entire dialogue boxes, though I agree an autosave and text log for mixed text would have been nice.
Personally I didn't mind that part in Lifecut, but I do know plenty of people who hate that part even as Suda fans. I think at that point I was so invested in how the story was wrapping up I didn't really care about having to check a bunch of buildings. Now, the part in 25th Ward where you have to check an entire apartment complex until your cop companion's spider sense picks up the vibe of the guy you're looking for or whatever...yeah, that was pretty indefensible. I couldn't imagine how annoying it'd be to navigate on a Japanese flip phone.
Regarding the divisiveness, I totally get it, and again- I'm not a reviewer so the below is just my personal, uninformed thoughts. I've read reviews by people that bounced off Silver Case or killer7 and completely understood where they're coming from- usually they admit they don't really have a point of comparison (which is understandable, because what can you even compare killer7 to) or they note that they aren't familiar with his works but at least make it clear that they kind of stand alone and recommend them as experimental pieces of media. I can only speak for myself but I've played poorly translated, obtuse janky-ass games that I would never play again, but I'd still recommend them to the general public (either for playing, or just watching someone else play) because some of them are one of a kind and worth experiencing at least once. It sets my teeth on edge to feel so lucky that something got preserved and translated against all odds and then see people acting like playing it is some awful punishing experience, even if it's not their usual fare.
I guess I take issue with describing his games as "'obtuse', 'irritating', 'painfully slow' and 'hard-to-follow'" and the characterizing of them as good stories buried underneath a bunch of "nonsense". It read less like a disclaimer and just a really overwhelmingly negative way to describe GHM. I think it's a strange implication to make, that fans of Suda's works are begrudgingly dealing with poorly designed games to get to the narrative themes of his work, when- again, when it comes to games he's been fully in the driver's seat for, the narrative themes and gameplay are inextricable from each other. The core of No More Heroes wouldn't have the same impact without the decrepit, empty open world and part-time jobs people like to complain about, just like Silver Case wouldn't have the same impact if everything was laid out for you super clearly and you had prior knowledge of why this cast of characters are all so weird and socially maladjusted. It's certainly not an experience everyone enjoys, but like watching a Gaspar Noe film or eating bugs, in my opinion it's something everyone who wants to enrich themselves with something unique should try out at least once.
I think if I had to review something I hated, but it was also something unlike anything else I'd experienced before and I hadn't played/read/watched anything by the person in question, I'd probably recommend people check it out rather than automatically assume only hardcore fans of x author's work can get anything out of it.
@Kiolu100 I don't want to harp on this too much and can only speak for myself, but I did read (and reread) the whole review. I have less of a problem with the score and was more concerned with what seemed to be, honestly a lot of hyperbole about fundamental stuff (like the controls, how often you can save, etc).
I think what really drew my/others ire is the amount of places it seems to pivot from subjective phrasing (ie. The characters are poorly written) to just, completely made up statements about the controls and basic mechanics (ie. You can only save once every half hour at most). It also really isn't made clear that when there's a square you can interact on, the game marks that square with a symbol. So, the kind of "pixel hunting" that plagues a lot of games like this is pretty much done away with.
There were certainly a few places I got stuck on temporarily, but the amount of options you have at any given time is way more limited than, say...SNATCHER, or Ace Attorney. You can't even move locations on your own, you're confined to one spot until you figure out what to do in that area.
My primary concern was people coming away from reading this with the idea that this game is super cumbersome, like, more than you would expect from a remastered 1999 VN-when really, the puzzles are quite limited in comparison (you even have an instant 'I win' button for some of them), you can save more often than you can't save, and you're stuck in these very confined locations until you figure out how to progress.
That all being said no one should be flaming reviewers, period, and I hope I didn't come across that way. Admittedly I was really, really baffled by how much some of the systems of SC seemed to prompt so much confusion, and the characterization of Suda's narrative/gameplay choices as just randomly annoying/edgy without any deeper meaning. There's a noticeable pattern with this dev in particular of people characterizing his games as needlessly obtuse/annoying when they're meant to be taken as a whole package. Not everyone vibes with the way he dripfeeds you information/parts of a story but everything is done with intention.
@naxuu That's really all I could ask for. From what you wrote it sounds like you'll really enjoy it. Many people find the first chapters (0 and 1) a little slow, because they're onboarding you and throwing a ton of info at you to set the mood, and to be clear it is a product of its time. There are a couple drops of the r/f slurs, but then again, you're not exactly dealing with wholesome, pleasant people.
And yeah- I can understand the 100 question Kumite making you like...nervous, if you're not sure if you'll be able to proceed if you 'lose', but (minor spoiler) they never tell you your score anyway. You can just blow past it if you want.
Also like I mentioned the game does automatically move you to the next subsequent chapter, but you're going to want to make sure you alternate between Transmitter and Placebo chapters. There's a whole Rashomon effect going on between the two characters that will be unclear if you play all the way through one chapter set, then the other (I made that mistake first playthrough)
Alright, I really tried to just let this review slide and not fly off the handle and be an obnoxious fanboy about it. I typically never reply to game reviews that rub me the wrong way because game reviewers have a tough job and there's enough vitriol out there. I know reviewers don’t often get to choose what they review and sometimes they get poorly matched with a game that just isn’t their genre.
However this is the second time these games have been ported to a new system and have received a flurry of reviewers that are not just negative (which is fine, and expected- people often bounce off Suda games) but are entirely misinformed, irresponsibly reported on and cause anyone who might be interested in these games and find this as their first avenue of exposure (either in Suda51 games, or the SC/25W in general) to come away with a completely wrong idea of what they’re like. Let’s be real, here. 3/10 is what you give an unplayable, buggy game. These are two ports of a 1999 PSX VN and a game that came out on Japanese mobile flip phones in 2005 (which you might want to acknowledge because it’s a ***** miracle it got translated and remastered at all). They have a ton of quality of life improvements from their original incarnations, and playing at least one VN/dungeon crawler in your life would adequately prepare you for being able to navigate the controls, to start with.
I’m going to try to debunk this review point by point on the assumption that the reviewer made it in good faith and tried to engage with the work fairly, but honestly...I’m finding that hard to believe. There’s just so much objectively wrong here that it reads like they instantly stopped paying attention as soon as they started the game. I really hope this comment reaches people that might be on the fence about trying Silver Case/25W and some of Suda’s other work and found themselves balking from this review, because regardless of genre or whether you like VN’s or whatever, they are truly unique and experimental and they’re the kind of games you should play at least once. Silver Case is around 9-12 hours or so iirc, the 25th Ward is probably more like 15-20. These aren’t huge time investments, and if you’re interested in killer7, No More Heroes etc these are what laid the groundwork for those.
Since my comments wouldn't fit here, I put them in a twitlonger here:
Comments 4
Re: Review: The Silver Case 2425 - Style Over Substance In This Pair Of Early Suda51 Epics
@Kiolu100 I totally get crashing being irritating. Iirc holding the enter key on computers (not sure what the equivalent would be on the Switch) basically skips entire dialogue boxes, though I agree an autosave and text log for mixed text would have been nice.
Personally I didn't mind that part in Lifecut, but I do know plenty of people who hate that part even as Suda fans. I think at that point I was so invested in how the story was wrapping up I didn't really care about having to check a bunch of buildings. Now, the part in 25th Ward where you have to check an entire apartment complex until your cop companion's spider sense picks up the vibe of the guy you're looking for or whatever...yeah, that was pretty indefensible. I couldn't imagine how annoying it'd be to navigate on a Japanese flip phone.
Regarding the divisiveness, I totally get it, and again- I'm not a reviewer so the below is just my personal, uninformed thoughts. I've read reviews by people that bounced off Silver Case or killer7 and completely understood where they're coming from- usually they admit they don't really have a point of comparison (which is understandable, because what can you even compare killer7 to) or they note that they aren't familiar with his works but at least make it clear that they kind of stand alone and recommend them as experimental pieces of media. I can only speak for myself but I've played poorly translated, obtuse janky-ass games that I would never play again, but I'd still recommend them to the general public (either for playing, or just watching someone else play) because some of them are one of a kind and worth experiencing at least once. It sets my teeth on edge to feel so lucky that something got preserved and translated against all odds and then see people acting like playing it is some awful punishing experience, even if it's not their usual fare.
I guess I take issue with describing his games as "'obtuse', 'irritating', 'painfully slow' and 'hard-to-follow'" and the characterizing of them as good stories buried underneath a bunch of "nonsense". It read less like a disclaimer and just a really overwhelmingly negative way to describe GHM. I think it's a strange implication to make, that fans of Suda's works are begrudgingly dealing with poorly designed games to get to the narrative themes of his work, when- again, when it comes to games he's been fully in the driver's seat for, the narrative themes and gameplay are inextricable from each other. The core of No More Heroes wouldn't have the same impact without the decrepit, empty open world and part-time jobs people like to complain about, just like Silver Case wouldn't have the same impact if everything was laid out for you super clearly and you had prior knowledge of why this cast of characters are all so weird and socially maladjusted. It's certainly not an experience everyone enjoys, but like watching a Gaspar Noe film or eating bugs, in my opinion it's something everyone who wants to enrich themselves with something unique should try out at least once.
I think if I had to review something I hated, but it was also something unlike anything else I'd experienced before and I hadn't played/read/watched anything by the person in question, I'd probably recommend people check it out rather than automatically assume only hardcore fans of x author's work can get anything out of it.
Sorry for all the rambling.
Re: Review: The Silver Case 2425 - Style Over Substance In This Pair Of Early Suda51 Epics
@Kiolu100 I don't want to harp on this too much and can only speak for myself, but I did read (and reread) the whole review. I have less of a problem with the score and was more concerned with what seemed to be, honestly a lot of hyperbole about fundamental stuff (like the controls, how often you can save, etc).
I think what really drew my/others ire is the amount of places it seems to pivot from subjective phrasing (ie. The characters are poorly written) to just, completely made up statements about the controls and basic mechanics (ie. You can only save once every half hour at most). It also really isn't made clear that when there's a square you can interact on, the game marks that square with a symbol. So, the kind of "pixel hunting" that plagues a lot of games like this is pretty much done away with.
There were certainly a few places I got stuck on temporarily, but the amount of options you have at any given time is way more limited than, say...SNATCHER, or Ace Attorney. You can't even move locations on your own, you're confined to one spot until you figure out what to do in that area.
My primary concern was people coming away from reading this with the idea that this game is super cumbersome, like, more than you would expect from a remastered 1999 VN-when really, the puzzles are quite limited in comparison (you even have an instant 'I win' button for some of them), you can save more often than you can't save, and you're stuck in these very confined locations until you figure out how to progress.
That all being said no one should be flaming reviewers, period, and I hope I didn't come across that way. Admittedly I was really, really baffled by how much some of the systems of SC seemed to prompt so much confusion, and the characterization of Suda's narrative/gameplay choices as just randomly annoying/edgy without any deeper meaning. There's a noticeable pattern with this dev in particular of people characterizing his games as needlessly obtuse/annoying when they're meant to be taken as a whole package. Not everyone vibes with the way he dripfeeds you information/parts of a story but everything is done with intention.
@Quarth Glad to hear it and hope you enjoy!
Re: Review: The Silver Case 2425 - Style Over Substance In This Pair Of Early Suda51 Epics
@naxuu That's really all I could ask for. From what you wrote it sounds like you'll really enjoy it. Many people find the first chapters (0 and 1) a little slow, because they're onboarding you and throwing a ton of info at you to set the mood, and to be clear it is a product of its time. There are a couple drops of the r/f slurs, but then again, you're not exactly dealing with wholesome, pleasant people.
And yeah- I can understand the 100 question Kumite making you like...nervous, if you're not sure if you'll be able to proceed if you 'lose', but (minor spoiler) they never tell you your score anyway. You can just blow past it if you want.
Also like I mentioned the game does automatically move you to the next subsequent chapter, but you're going to want to make sure you alternate between Transmitter and Placebo chapters. There's a whole Rashomon effect going on between the two characters that will be unclear if you play all the way through one chapter set, then the other (I made that mistake first playthrough)
Re: Review: The Silver Case 2425 - Style Over Substance In This Pair Of Early Suda51 Epics
Alright, I really tried to just let this review slide and not fly off the handle and be an obnoxious fanboy about it. I typically never reply to game reviews that rub me the wrong way because game reviewers have a tough job and there's enough vitriol out there. I know reviewers don’t often get to choose what they review and sometimes they get poorly matched with a game that just isn’t their genre.
However this is the second time these games have been ported to a new system and have received a flurry of reviewers that are not just negative (which is fine, and expected- people often bounce off Suda games) but are entirely misinformed, irresponsibly reported on and cause anyone who might be interested in these games and find this as their first avenue of exposure (either in Suda51 games, or the SC/25W in general) to come away with a completely wrong idea of what they’re like. Let’s be real, here. 3/10 is what you give an unplayable, buggy game. These are two ports of a 1999 PSX VN and a game that came out on Japanese mobile flip phones in 2005 (which you might want to acknowledge because it’s a ***** miracle it got translated and remastered at all). They have a ton of quality of life improvements from their original incarnations, and playing at least one VN/dungeon crawler in your life would adequately prepare you for being able to navigate the controls, to start with.
I’m going to try to debunk this review point by point on the assumption that the reviewer made it in good faith and tried to engage with the work fairly, but honestly...I’m finding that hard to believe. There’s just so much objectively wrong here that it reads like they instantly stopped paying attention as soon as they started the game. I really hope this comment reaches people that might be on the fence about trying Silver Case/25W and some of Suda’s other work and found themselves balking from this review, because regardless of genre or whether you like VN’s or whatever, they are truly unique and experimental and they’re the kind of games you should play at least once. Silver Case is around 9-12 hours or so iirc, the 25th Ward is probably more like 15-20. These aren’t huge time investments, and if you’re interested in killer7, No More Heroes etc these are what laid the groundwork for those.
Since my comments wouldn't fit here, I put them in a twitlonger here:
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1srppj5?new_post=true