By now, we’ve surely all seen the news that Super Mario 64 is finally arriving on Switch as part of Super Mario 3D All-Stars, joining Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy in a limited-time bundle. Long rumoured to be making the jump, fans are undeniably ecstatic to see it emerge on Nintendo’s hybrid machine, packed with a higher resolution at 720p in both handheld/docked modes.
Whilst Sunshine and Galaxy are mostly identical between their regional releases, Super Mario 64 has a few more defined differences and shortly after the announcement, debates emerged about which version we’ll receive. Right now, signs point towards this being the “Shindou Pak Taiou” edition used, a Japanese-only re-release that launched in 1997. It’s a name speedrunners and die-hard fans will know, but for more casual players, you might wonder just what this version entails.
With 3D All-Stars launching next week, here’s what you need to know about this obscure edition of Super Mario 64 and why people are suddenly talking about it again.
What’s The Shindou Edition About?
Just under a year after Super Mario 64’s launch, Star Fox 64 released with its much-touted Rumble Pak support. Helping popularise force feedback vibration in controllers, most controllers have included it as standard ever since and Nintendo were looking to capitalise.
Come July 1997, they re-released Super Mario 64 with rumble support as the “Shindou Pak Taiou” version, coming out alongside Wave Race 64's own Shindou edition. Based on the American version, Shindou is best described as an "international" edition of Super Mario 64, retaining that English voice acting and translating text back into Japanese. It made a few extra tweaks but as you’d expect, those primarily regard Rumble Pak functionality.
If connected to your N64 controller, it would vibrate when hitting enemies or if Mario got attacked, also providing feedback when using ground pound moves or forward diving. Seeking a wider means of using the Rumble Pak to justify the Shindou re-release, that included more mundane uses of it, too. From choosing a game file, picking up items like red coins or extra lives or messing with Mario’s face during the title screen, these also activated this newly-added feature.
How Many Versions of Super Mario 64 Are There?
Keeping it strictly to the original N64 release, there are four in total, excluding China’s exclusive iQue release, Virtual Console re-releases and Super Mario 64 DS. When Super Mario 64 was launched in America in 1996, it wasn’t quite the same game Japan received several months prior. Numerous issues were fixed like the 1000 Coin Glitch, Mario was given more voice lines, some levels had slight design alterations and more.
It wasn’t particularly groundbreaking; it was more a case of Nintendo of America tidying up some present issues before launching it. Europe/Australia’s release also added further changes on top of NOA’s version, but outside a slower framerate and changing Mario’s jump sounds, this was pretty minimal.
Are There Any Other Differences in Shindou?
Most other updates are minor like text changes or some audio-visual adjustments. One notable Easter egg, also present in the iQue edition, can be located during the Title Screen. When Mario’s head appears, if you push down the Z button during this, a whole series of Mario faces suddenly emerge behind him, moving in sync with his head in slightly unnerving fashion.
Shindou’s other major change is why it holds such prominence within the speedrunning community. Even now, 24 years after release, Super Mario 64 garners active interest amongst speedrunners as they find new ways to play, competing to see who can finish it quickest and 3D All-Stars’ version will likely see similar interest.
These attempts generally involve exploits and within the Shindou edition, Nintendo removed the game’s most famous one, "Backwards Long Jump".
Why Is This A Big Deal?
For the uninitiated, Backwards Long Jump is a glitch that allows you to exploit Mario’s movement speed, letting players circumvent doors and walls. To perform this, upon reaching any long stairs, Mario must turn around and perform a long jump, holding the control stick backwards and rapidly tapping the jump button. This allows Mario to move backwards at a high pace, thus breaking the game.
It allows players to bypass significant chunks of the game and as such, this specific glitch is an essential element in Super Mario 64 speedruns. It meant they could avoid the 70 Stars requirement before reaching Bowser’s final battle, letting Mario break through those Endless Stairs that’d otherwise block your progress. By capping his movement speed, Shindou makes this feat impossible.
Why Is This Version Rumoured Specifically for 3D All-Stars?
Within the 35th anniversary broadcast, Super Mario 64’s section showcased a few clips of gameplay running off the Switch, ending with that iconic scene of Mario throwing Bowser into bombs in the Dark World. Normally, upon launching Bowser, Mario will shout “So Long, Kinga Bowser!” (yes, that’s definitely what he said) but instead, he shouts "Buh-Bye!". That may not seem like much alone but, outside of Super Mario 64 DS (Which we can rule out here), this dialogue does not appear in other editions.
Furthermore, we already know 3D All-Stars’ versions of each game are remastered ports, rather than a new one. Considering Nintendo previously pushed the Switch Joy-Con’s HD Rumble, Shindou’s rumble support will likely factor into their decision, too. Adding further to this, Nintendo also tweeted footage of SM64’s opening on Switch, showing a blue ™ logo that matches Shindou, whereas other releases featured different colours.
It’s certainly an interesting footnote in Super Mario 64’s history, though truthfully these differences aren’t particularly vast outside Rumble Pak and BLJ. Speedrunners will understandably be disappointed by this decision but ultimately, we’re still seeing Super Mario 64 finally land on Switch. Whether you’re a first-time player or a seasoned N64 veteran, there’s a lot to be excited for come September 18th.
Are you an Super Mario 64 Speedrunner? Would you be disappointed if that’s the version used or is it a non-issue? Let us know your thoughts in the comments.
Comments 114
Yep, loads of games had International versions, especially Final Fantasy games.
I think they may have just added the "buh-bye" clip for the trailer, due to the "gay bowser" dilemma haha
This is a must-have title, and the limited stock, scalping, and no Backwards Long Jump isn't going to stop me.
Although, I would love to hear "so long, gay bowser" one more time in an official Nintendo game....
HD rumble will be a great addition.
For example, Hollow Knight uses is a great way!
Gutted they have changed what Mario says when launching Bowser!
The Gay Bowser memes were just starting to dry out, I don’t think they would want to restart the thing again.
This is great news to hear but I still rather it be as version.
Please add back so long kinga bowser
I prefer the Japanese terminology for the Backwards Long Jump. They call it the Ass Warp.
I wonder why they didn't base the game on Mario 64 DS. I know it's not the original experience, but neither is this one and 64 DS was supposed to be an improved version.
Have they said if 3D All Stars has HD Rumble support for all 3 games?
I'll take rumble over a broken exploitable move any day. I ain't a speed runner and never have been, so I'm much more keen on getting rumble in my Mario 64 over an exploit I never use.
I don't understand how people consider it speed running to glitch their way through a game...
@doctorhino because it’s the quickest way to beat the game. There are also categories that don’t allow glitches. But any% or glitched runs are the most popular due to the weird stuff that happens and a lot of glitched requiring pinpoint precision making it more suspensfull for viewing.
@Slowdive I agree that the limited release is one of the worst things Nintendo could have done, but if you think this version is destined to become the main speedrunner's version, that means you don't follow SM64 speedrunning very closely. The SM64 community are very much purists for the original N64 version, and that is unlikely to change any time soon.
We went from "So long gay Bowser" to "Bye bi!"
Speedrunning differences is neligable as there be an glitch to exploit in the shindou version as with other games. As to quote Jurassic park. "Speedrunners finds a way."
There was one other version with the Bye Bye line for the 64DD. I’m sure it was only shown at the TGS and was never released but has cropped up for sale on eBay before.
But you forgot one thing there all......personalized!
@X68000 can I just say that I love your icon and appreciate your fondness for SEGATA SANSHIRO?!
By the way, since it wasn't actually outright stated, if anyone's wondering "Shindou Pak Taiou" translates to "Rumble Pak Supported".
Maybe they should just do what Street Fighter does, and release the same game with slight alterations over and over again.
Some of y'all would definitely splurge on Ultra Mario 64 Alpha Remix: Hyper Edition
@Rhaoulos Also, L was real 200411 (we just needed to change the digits around a bit).
@DoktorTotenKopf Thanks! Segata San was/is a legend.
@X68000 Indeed he be. Wish he would make an appearance in Smash one day...
@doctorhino Different categories. Any% just means get to the end credits in whatever means possible. Not my favorite category, because that’s when glitches start to become very prominent. 100% usually means you do whatever it takes to get 100% in the game, usually agreed upon by the community. I wish there was a category called glitch%, which is separate from any% so that it would make more sense.
@Rhaoulos Or at least include it as a option or something. The DS version is the definitive version by far in my opinion. A way more fleshed out experience of the game.
I'm okay with getting the Shindou Edition, as it would be my first time playing that version, and for all intents and purposes, Nintendo sees it as the definitive version. Also, I suck too much at this game to want to speedrun it.
@TG16_IS_BAE I guess to me it seems silly to have to learn glitches in order to play a game through quickly but speed running is kind of its own subculture so I won't judge too much. They like what they like I guess, just to the average gamer it seems like learning how to cheese your way through.
I don't see how speed running modern games could even be possible if someone sets a record and then they patch the glitch out.
@Slowdive Don't rule out the possibility of a reprint in a near future. That happened to Wii All-Stars, which was also extremely limited. People might end up losing money in this scalping madness.
@doctorhino if strats/glitches get patched out people use physical copies that haven't been updated (for the switch at least). on steam you can down patch most of the time and for most people (casuals, people who aren't top runners) its doesn't really matter because they don't need to do the fastest strats.
@doctorhino
People who dislike the idea of using glitches when speedrunning games never seem to understand that these players have ALREADY beaten the game normally before.
If you've played a Mario game dozens of times normally, then what are you exactly proving by beating it AGAIN normally?
It's more fun to see what kind of crazy tricks are possible, and then try to beat the game using these tricks. Don't you think?
Actually, I expect the only reason for the voice change is so no one can say Mario is shouting " So long, g*y Bowser" anymore, and for no reason other than that. It's just Nintendo being Nintendo and avoiding any potential unnecessary troubles.
@EarthboundBenjy yeah I mean I don't really care it's just not much of a competition at that point. Maybe it's the perspective from the outside that speed running is all about being the best and fastest, like setting records actually matters to 99% of people. I guess I realize thats not the case but at the same time aren't people trying to be the best?
If you are learning a bunch of silly tricks then say " I beat this game in 5 minutes" when really you just glitched your way through the code to trigger a win sequence that's not beating the game at all.
My only experience with speed running is in Mario maker and I definitely go for that WR
@doctorhino
Except it IS still a competition! The tricks aren't specific to the players using them - they're right there in the game.
The same game will behave the exact same way to every player, so in BOTH the glitch-allowed and the glitch-banned rulesets, it's always an even playing field. Every competitor has access to the same things.
And yes, the runs where you glitch the game to trigger the win sequence early on ARE less interesting as competitions than runs where you don't do that. That's why most Ocarina of Time speedrunners don't bother with any%.
@EarthboundBenjy yeah if they keep watching the wr speed runs to learn all the glitches. So instead of just getting good you are keeping up with glitches that aren't part of the mechanics of the game.
@doctorhino
Every game has its own specific tech.
Even if that tech isn't glitches.
Celeste for example has a ton of hidden, intentionally-programmed movement options, and basically no glitches.
In order to compete in Celeste speedrunning, you're going to have to learn the tech if you want to compete.
Just the same as a Mario 64 runner would have to learn the Mario 64 tech.
...and what kind of argument is that, anyway? OF COURSE you'll have to study the thing you're competing in if you want to do well! Why WOULDN'T that be the case?
And anyways. If you want to only compete in Mario 64 specifically against speedrunners who don't like using glitches, YOU CAN. PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS.
And these people STILL need to watch videos to learn the tech if they want to place well.
@EarthboundBenjy So people spend years getting good at something and someone data mines some code, finds a glitch and they're the champion. If that's how you like your competitions more power to you but it just seems like total BS.
I mean I'm not saying you can't have a competition like that since obviously there is a distinction between glitch runs and non but that would just piss me off if I actually cared about the competitive aspect of it.
@TG16_IS_BAE you do realize there is any% and glitched any% already right? Same with 100%. Your idea was so good it's been in use for years lol
@doctorhino
Well, when that happens, then they become the "champion" of a new category, not the game as a whole.
The previous version of the run will still exist and can still be competed in. And if the run is more interesting the old way, then it can very well end up more popular than the newly-discovered, technically faster run.
You're making a lot of negative assumptions about a scene you're not invested in. It's okay to not be interested, but please don't assume speedrunners are all degenerates who participate in pointless lunacy.
The vast majority of videogame speedrun records are fair competitions. Nobody within the speedrun community, AKA the people ACTUALLY COMPETING has a problem with the way things are set up. It's always people from the outside looking in that chime in their opinions about how speedrunners are DOING IT WRONG, and that really bothers me.
I bet they still didn't fix the yoshi typo.
@doctorhino Glitches make the community more interesting. If nobody used glitches, then the run wouldn't change and the scene would fade out. With glitches however, new strategy's are constantly being found and there becomes so many more ways to keep the game interesting. If you don't like glitches, then watch 70 star runs, there more for you.
@kingeo If they fix the typo I will riot.
@doctorhino I don't understand how people consider it speed running to glitch their way through a game...
Agreed. May as well be using a cheat device to beat the game.
@Crono1973
The difference between an in-game glitch and a cheating device is that the glitch is IN THE GAME. Anyone with the game and a controller in their hands could perform the glitch.
It's not cheating because every speedrunning competitor has access to the same things.
@crono1973 How is using a glitch anymore cheating then jumping a running? I know the glitch was not intended but it's still in the code. If something is part of the game there is no reason you should not be able to use it.
@EarthboundBenjy I think the main issue is when they put out stuff like this: "I beat zelda OOT all dungeons in 37 minutes"
Zelda Ocarina of Time Record
All Dungeons 37:18 ZFG 2020-06-15
To the normal person that sounds like you ripped your way through the dungeons in some ungodly quick time and it seems impossible. Upon learning "how" you ripped through the game they're not happy to have felt so inferior only to find out someone "cheated". I get it you guys have your own rules, but the clickbaitness of the records just ends up getting to people over time.
@doctorhino I will agree that they should make it more clear that a run uses glitches, but people who want to simply beat the game as fast as possible should have the option to do so.
@doctorhino
If ZFG ever did say that, I'm sure he wasn't 100% serious. He is definitely not out to misinform people, that much I know for sure.
ZFG is known for his deadpan style of speech. He loves how ridiculous Ocarina of Time can become, and so if he ever did say "I just beat all dungeons in 37 minutes", he was likely just saying it as a way to highlight how far the All Dungeons run has come over the years.
I think the actual problem here is that there even exists people who "feel inferior" when seeing somebody else's accomplishments.
I can sometimes feel like I suck at competitive games, but I don't take it as a personal sleight that someone is better than me. That's ridiculous.
If I saw a video title like that, I would feel intrigued and would want to learn more about how it was possible to do.
@EarthboundBenjy Out of curiosity how is it decided if something is a glitch or not? For example, in Mario 3 in Bowser’s Castle there’s a hidden 1-up and if I crouch jump on top of the block Mario gets pushed through the wall saving a small amount of time. Would that be considered a glitch or just part of the normal game?
@BulkSlash
That is an excellent point, and one that speedrunners don't really have a concrete answer for.
The answer at the moment is just community concensus. If something that doesn't "look" "intended" by the developers is found, generally the game's speedrun community will come to an agreement as to whether or not it is considered a glitch.
Sometimes people disagree and you get even more divison. For example, Ocarina of Time has "Glitchless" and "Bug Limit", two separate interpretations of what a glitch-free run should ban or allow. It gets complicated.
And that is actually an excellent reason as to why glitches are generally used in speedruns. Because even defining what "is" or "isn't" a glitch can get very confusing very quickly - so it's easiest to just allow whatever the game lets you do.
I think it's funny that glitches in video games are now considered a no kidding "feature" to speed runners that should never be fixed, rather than bugs being jokingly called a "feature" by developers and really should be fixed.
I mean, if the version with rumble was easier to port to the Switch to have rumble, then, from a developer standpoint, "screw speed-runners."
@GamingFan4Lyf But if a glitch does not affect the average player and adds more replay value for hardcore players, should it really be fixed?
@GamingFan4Lyf
I don't think most speedrunners really care about what "should" or "shouldn't" be fixed in re-releases. When it comes to older games, the original versions will always still exist, so if a newly-released version fixes bugs, then that just makes it a different run.
Compare Wind Waker on GameCube to Wind Waker HD on Wii U - the Wii U version fixed an important glitch (storage), but also introduced an even crazier one (item sliding) - so the two games have vastly different runs.
@EarthboundBenjy I thought it might be complicated! 😅
I think I often use glitches in games even without realising it, sometimes because they actually help, e.g. rapidly switching back and forth the two weapons slots in Contra III or the extra life shell bounce in SMB1; and sometimes just for fun, e.g. throwing shells through steep slopes in Mario World or making Yoshi spit out the key after touching the keyhole.
@EarthboundBenjy I'm actually not talking about him. Just online publications trying to piggyback off the shock value of saying someone beat every Zelda dungeon in that time. I'm sure the community itself is very open about their methods. Or interviews that take direct quotes that sound ridiculous like "yes, I was able to beat all the dungeons in x time...." with these methods.
I just think most people are exposed to these records by being shocked at the times. And then learning how those times were actually achieved and being somewhat jaded by it.
@doctorhino
Well then. If your problem isn't actually with the speedrunners, but with the online publications, then please don't take out your frustration on the speedrunners by implying they're playing the game wrong.
@EarthboundBenjy I never said they were playing it wrong. I said they aren't really beating the game (which they're not) and that it isn't a "good" competition. Then tried to explain why most people have actual anger towards the scene as a whole.
@Large-Kelpfries Yes, all code issues should be fixed. Speaking as a developer I find it kind of insulting that you would think someone would not fix their code because people enjoy glitching a game out.
This is great news for speed runners because now they can really speed run the game and not just be forced to abuse glitches.
@doctorhino
So basically your opinion on speedrunning is "your hobby sucks". ok.
And regarding fixing code. I disagree that a developer should feel insulted that their users are enjoying their code in unintended ways. Feeling anger at someone else's joy is not a healthy way to live.
It doesn’t have “so long gay bowser”? Another reason not to get it.
@EarthboundBenjy It's not cheating because every speedrunning competitor has access to the same things.
By that logic, it's not cheating to use a Gameshark because everyone can get a a Gameshark. It's not like they were only sold to certain people.
I think you need to rethink your definition of cheating.
@Crono1973
You know what, if someone were to hold a "let's use gameshark" speedrunning competition, I'd love to see it. It sounds fun. I don't see the problem with this suggestion.
@Slowdive collectors and speed runners use and want the original copy. Rereleases are never worth anything at the end of the day.
@WaffleKnight it’s not must have if you’ve been a Nintendo fan for awhile, or own a pc.
@EarthboundBenjy "should" it really be fixed, is what I was responding to. And yes, by a software development point of view every code issue should be fixed and having glitches in your code kind of sucks. That's just the way it is. Software development is very competitive as well.
@Ghostchip I’ve been pretty avid in the speedrun community, probably for nearly two decades. Most games that use any% use major glitches. It’s very rare for runners outside of any% to state “this is a glitch%” run. It’s just rolled into any%. I’m saying that there should be any% with NO glitches allowed, followed by a glitch% that’s more of an anything goes. Nobody does that, you hardly see categories for those types of things. Even right now, the any% for Dark Souls uses major glitches and item stack overflow exploits, but it’s still just called any%.
@doctorhino I actually happen to agree with you. It’s like when people play Mario 3, get to world 7, and then use an exploit to just make the end credits appear. It’s neat, but also undermines a lot of what the game is about. I prefer 100%, or any% that doesn’t involve strange glitches.
@Trajan Re-releases aren’t worth anything to YOU, is what you mean. In two to three decades, anything that’s a limited print is going to sell for a higher price. That’s why Super C is $10 on eBay, and Sword Master is $300-$500. One was printed like money, the other game had a very limited amount produced. Same with Metal Storm, low amount of production, high price for the collector. Price is usually based off rarity, not always popularity.
@EarthboundBenjy Using a Gameshark and exploiting glitches are both playing the game NOT as intended. I would call both cheating.
Not that I mind cheating but people like to pretend that exploiting glitches isn't cheating.
@TG16_IS_BAE oh maybe the ones I watch are just differently labeled (you said you were avid so I might just be being stupid and thinking I saw something I didn't lol I am definitely not avid in the speed running community. I just watch them when I am bored)... and to be honest I agree with you on most games for glitches although I do have a few exceptions. Hollow knight glitches are usually not major but seem very precise and almost acrobatic. They allow skips but they don't break the game in any means, just allow for a slightly higher boost. A few other games are also like this but then again I'm pretty sure every 3d platformer is able to be broken lol so I prefer those glitchless if you know what I mean. You said you were avid in the community are you a speed runner? Because that would be cool and if so what games do you run? I couldn't do a speed run to save my life I like to go at a pace that is quick but appreciated the work that went into a game.
@TG16_IS_BAE depends. Collectors generally want the original copies of games.
This game is limited for a time, but Nintendo will keep producing it during that time. It’s going to be replaced by a better version anyway, which is why it’s limited.
A working switch in 10 years will be more rare.
@Trajan Right, but you’re still going off your preference, rather than not. Some old, rare games, such as Panic Restaurant, nobody would have predicted would sell for $4000 and up. There are so many Switches in the wild, it will take much longer than 10 years, honestly.
@Ghostchip Thanks! I run but I don’t stream, not into that. I run a bunch of NES/SNES games, such as Mario 3, Ninja Gaiden 1+2, Mega Man X1-3...stuff like that. I run any% and 100%, both glitchless. My speciality is Dark Souls 1-3, though, as well as Demons Souls. Nowhere near the world record, but I cranked through Dark Souls any% in 45 minutes, no glitches. I’m trying to slowly and painfully learn Super Metroid. Ugh.
Agreed about what you mention in Hollow Knight, some tactics that people use to sequence break or find “natural” skips are beautiful to watch! You are right though, some games do have separate categories for glitched/glitchless.
@TG16_IS_BAE
Yes but panic restaurant is a single release. This is a rerelease of older games.
As long as batteries are available. The console won’t boot without a battery. Unless of course they have a docked only model coming out.
@doctorhino All of those systems are significantly more durable than the switch.
@Trajan Just plug it in. You can completely remove the battery and it will still work that way, what are you on about lol
@doctorhino "I don't care about speedrunning nor do I know the first thing about it, in fact I actively dislike it so much I'm gonna make ignorant assumptions and crap on it for the sake of crapping on it, even when another dude is trying to explain how it works to me.
How dare people enjoy playing games differently than I do?"
angrily shakes fist in the air
@clvr That’s not what he said at all lmfao
@TG16_IS_BAE awesome! You definitely picked fun games to run I mean x speed runs are really cool and mario 3 is my first and favorite mario! And 45 minutes on dark souls is very impressive to me! I am playing super metroid for the first time myself lots of fun after hollow knight got me into genre can't wait for prime 4
@Large-Kelpfries From a developer side of things, it depends on the level of effort required to fix it. Bugs are bugs - regardless if it's something that hardcore gamers find fun, it's still technically a bug that prevents the software from running "as intended" - albeit probably way more minor on the bug list.
If it's a quick fix, fix it. If it's something more significant...well, I guess that's up to development studio budget on whether it's even worth fixing.
Whatever is in the code is fundamentally part of the game, whether it was intended to be there or not. (I get why a developer might want to polish glitches out of existence, though. But I also see the value in keeping them around.)
Watching Half-Life 2 players bounce and levitate off every map is fascinating. They're exploiting the game's physics and, in a sense, playing by the rules. Sure, it's probably not what Valve had in mind, but it's what they put in the game. It's there, in the code. Besides, on a deeper level, the crazy antics players pull off in Half-Life 2 stem directly from that game's flexible mechanics and systems. And at any rate, it's very, very hard to pull off those tricks. You can't casual them.
That said, I agree different kinds of runs — depending on whether or not these "glitches" are exploited — should be differentiated.
@Trajan We will see. I consider the base unit of the switch pretty durable based on the number of times I've accidentally had it fall. The joycons dont' fare so well but I use one of those big controller handheld docks now so I don't have to risk the side controller ports getting messed up.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083W85BBQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
@TG16_IS_BAE "If you are learning a bunch of silly tricks then say " I beat this game in 5 minutes" when really you just glitched your way through the code to trigger a win sequence that's not beating the game at all."
"Glitches are not part of the game"
"To the normal person that sounds like you ripped your way through the dungeons in some ungodly quick time and it seems impossible. Upon learning "how" you ripped through the game they're not happy to have felt so inferior only to find out someone "cheated". I get it you guys have your own rules, but the clickbaitness of the records just ends up getting to people over time."
"Just online publications trying to piggyback off the shock value of saying someone beat every Zelda dungeon in that time. I'm sure the community itself is very open about their methods. Or interviews that take direct quotes that sound ridiculous like "yes, I was able to beat all the dungeons in x time...." with these methods."
It's pretty clear he's got a bone to pick with the SR scene.
I mean, he even admits to feeling inferior when people beat the games faster than him and states that using glitches is like cheating.
Doesn't sound exactly like an enthusiast to me.
@doctorhino : I agree with pretty much all that you've said. Glitch runs are absolute BS and I skip them when I see them. Unfortunately, they are treated as the default as opposed to the exception (and that one often has to specifically seek out a "glitchless" run). Anybody can merely exploit unintended bugs to make it to the closing credits. I'm interested in seeing the most skilled players playing the game as intended. If speed runners were more upfront about whether a run is glitched or not, then it wouldn't be so problematic.
@clvr Those are normal observations, though. Even I, as a speedrunner, have my limits with glitches and such. Performing stack overflow glitches and just making the end credits appear isn't exactly in the spirit of the game, is it? It's interesting to see that the developers left such a thing in there, but it's way better to watch say, Zoasty play through Super Metroid and use techniques to go faster, rather than just opening a door 255 times to make the end credits appear.
Hino is trying to talk from a programming perspective. To a programmer, if your game can be cracked open by a standard user and just exploited, that's usually looked down upon as bad coding and such. It doesn't mean he has a bone to pick with speedrunners, I just think it's unreasonable to "beat" a game using exploits and glitches that would probably have been patched out had the devs lived in a more modern era.
@Ghostchip Definitely! And I am by no means anywhere near world record pace. It's just a hobby that I enjoy. You should try it with a game you feel like you are good at, it's great to learn the game from a different perspective and learn any neat tricks to save time. I find it's also good for keeping my mind sharp, because you have to memorize routes and such for consistent runs.
@TG16_IS_BAE Pretty much, I started off saying I don't really care as in "I don't care that using glitches has become the default for getting the best time". I just don't agree with those being legit playthroughs. If someone else does and wants to compete with it cool. My point about the publications is true, speedrunners know they're going to get written up as defeated mario bros 1 in 2 minutes. That's why it became a thing because it was shocking to do so and people wanted to learn how.
@doctorhino Exactly! It also annoys me as a runner, because I hate using glitches to skip huge portions of games. I do enjoy finding natural skips, such as dropping down to Pinwheel in the Catacombs in Dark Souls, or the elevator skip in Duke's Archives. Those aren't glitches, they are just part of the game and happen to be there. But using the glitch to get into the area with the last boss annoys me, because it means I can't participate in what the community considers "any%," and my times won't be competitive because I'm not using an exploit.
All in all, I see your point because programmers would be fired today if their software had exploits in things people paid for, but in games people seem to just shrug and go eh, we can patch it out. Heck, Skyrim SE is literally one of the most glitchy and buggy games on Steam, and it still is being sold, without fixing the patches. Unacceptable, honestly.
@TG16_IS_BAE I definitely appreciate your round up way more than his previous comments, since they reeked of loathing speedrunning in general.
I'm not a SR fan, to be honest, I don't particularly love it nor hate it, but my opinion is that, if you have a playground to play in, you definitely have the right to try out every tool at your disposal. The glitches are in the game, you can't argue against it, so it can't be bad to actually use them.
I mean, I would get his point if every speedrunner was forced to use glitches, but that's exactly what different categories are for, hence I don't understand the moaning and downplaying of those apeedrunners abilities.
You can speedrun with or without glitches, so what's the point? Just ignore those that use glitches and let people have their fun.
A dear friend of mine in in the top 50 SMB glitch any% category, and seeing him train to shave milliseconds off, it's not like playing with glitches is the cakewalk he makes it out to be.
But yeah, I'm telling you things you already know lol
@TG16_IS_BAE good on you dude/not dude! I think if I had to speed run a game, it would be mario 3/world, mario galaxy, or any kirby. Might give it a try
@clvr I didn't say it was a cakewalk, I said it alters the way the perception of what a "fastest time" is. If anything I was arguing for it making it harder since you have to keep up with newly found glitches people find.
Even speedrun.com has Any% as their default
@TG16_IS_BAE oh is mario galaxy one ok to speed run? Just curious all the other ones seek great for speed runs but galaxy might be a bit hard for a speed run
@Ghostchip Whatever you are the most comfortable with. There are people who speedrun Baten Kaitos, which takes something like 340 hours to 100%, so there's no limit to what game you choose to do. Galaxy speedruns are pretty fascinating, try starting on YouTube and see where that leads you, and check for websites to learn speedrun "tech" so that you can understand some of the tricks that might be employed to save time. I know there is a site dedicated to Super Metroid speedruns, Dark Souls, Mario 64, and Mega Man x, so I'm sure there has to be one for Galaxy. One day, I will learn Mario 64, but...uh, that one's very hard for me lmfao! Have fun!
@Ghostchip lol I am dude lmfao
@TG16_IS_BAE you never know what people are offended by in 2020 lmao
@Terra That was very interesting and insightful, thanks!
for all we know there will be some way, possibly a glitch that will allow us to pick which version of the game we would like to play. or for all we know they may have fixed the glitch that allows us to use the backwards long jump. (the horror...lol)
I remember that glitch a long time ago, I wanted to do it so badly but couldn't as I didn't knew how
Considering it is a remaster maybe they patched out the glitch anyway, but I hope it's still there so the speedrun community has a good time with it.
@Ghostchip TRULY
Wouldn't be too worried, not like other categories/platforms will be eliminated
Never knew there was another version. So long gay bowser! Literally because mario won't even say that in this one. Bummer!
@doctorhino But some glitches simply don't negatively affect the game. I agree developers should get rid of glitches in development, but if the game is already out and the glitches actually make the game more fun, I think the developers should consider leaving it in. Take the Backwards Long-Jump for example. It adds stuff to play with to a average player who might want to try it out, and it creates new competition for speed runners trying to beat the game quickly. I didn't mean to offend you, but I think saying that ALL code problems should be fixed is a little closed minded.
@doctorhino How is that different than F1? You can be the best driver in the world, but if the other team finds an exploitable rule in the rulebook you are going to lose. Every competition has people looking for better solutions even if those require creative thinking.
@Large-Kelpfries Nintendo, like some others studios surviving, makes games with a end-to-end vision, kinda like an art. They intend their games to be played in only one way and no other and will fix any bugs to return to the vision. It's highly the same idea behind the Star Wars special editions changes by Georges Lucas and in opposite effect, prevent unwanted alterations, like the creators' backlash against Netflix fast-forward feature.
Like it or don't, but it's a been like this for decades now. People can't be surprised Nintendo keep fixing games in re-releases.
“So Long, Kinga Bowser!” was my favourite part of the game!
I'm more concerned as to why they didn't give Super Mario Sunshine GameCube controller compatibility! 💢
@Large-Kelpfries the issue is if you have a glitch in code it can mean other things down the line or when a game gets ported. Let's say you run that code through a new compiler and it interprets your glitch differently. Now you may have bigger issues from not solving the original issue.
I don't expect everyone to understand why but trust me code issues are fluid. They cause worse problems down the line if left in and can mutate over time.
Btw you didn't offend me, I guess I said it wrong but developers run by their own understanding of how code works and if someone says don't fix that, it makes it fun, it's like telling an engineer to leave a broken part in his machine.
@StevenG lol if someone was to win an f1 race by driving backwards and forwards through the pit and having invisible tires installed. Then moving to a specific spot and triggering a checkered flag people would be outraged.
I get what you're saying. I thought you meant very "mistake" should be fixed just because. It makes a lot more sense from a technical standpoint
@doctorhino If the rule book allowed it, no one would be. The same as all the other engineering tricks that get used.
@Slowdive
If you think that, you don't know speedrunning.
The N64 versions will always be king because they have the glitches that allow 16, 1 and 0 stars as well as the faster ways to do 70 and 120 star.
The Switch port will just become another category for 70 and 120 star.
@Ghostchip
To answer your question yes.
The Switch version of all 3 games will become their own category. So you're not competing with the already existing N64/GC/Wii times.
I've been recently trying to get into speedrunning the game, myself, spending time practicing the exploits to get the execution down, so this is kind of a bummer. I still have the Wii U VC version, though, so I'm not too bothered overall.
@DAHstroy yeah right the king bowser that some people rather wanted the cheap us way saying king koopa bullcrap nonsense
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