Nintendo And ROM Website Owner Looking To Avoid Lengthy Court Proceedings

Given said sites used Nintendo and Mario imagery in their banners etc, basically appropriating a brand to advertise their own, what is by law a software piracy, website...Nintendo is in the right.

Don't steal branding. Especially when you use it to advertise something illegal.

All I will say is I openly admit I do use ROM websites but all I will say in return is....

Nintendo.... let me pay you £X.XX a month and have access to your back catalogue easily in a Netflix like system.

I just read the initial court filing by Nintendo at:
https://torrentfreak.com/images/nintendo-loveroms.pdf

My favorite part:
"For example, on October 15, 2015, Defendants promoted the availability of pirated copies of Nintendo’s games with the following announcement to the LoveROMs.com Facebook page: 'The complete Nintendo DS Collection has been uploaded, 5,000+ ROMs now readily available! Enjoy.' More recently, on January 30, 2018, Defendants posted the following announcement to the LoveROMs.com Facebook page: 'Direct Nintendo Wii downloads coming soon! We’re also adding some additional titles. Stay tuned.'"

I don't think that Mathias guy is going to get off easy even if he settles. I imagine he'll likely still have to pay a hefty settlement fee to Nintendo, but no where near as bad as if he took it to court.

Pro Tip: if you are running business, make sure your business model isn't ripping off a huge corporation (and posting it on Facebook).

Here we go again.

(Sit down on sofa, enjoy Tortilla chips with cheese sauce while watching funny debates about ROMs here)

Nintendo have the high ground. Not much else to say really.

@Anti-Matter You always bring the best snacks

Well, nothing that wasn't expected, really. But I still say that this is companies fighting symptoms, instead of the disease.

Like the TV, movie and music industry, the gaming industry at large needs to be more aware, attuned and/or willing to cater to the wishes of their target audience, which is a solid and widely varied service, which allows them to either rent or download ALL of their games, for a fixed and accommodating fee.

In Nintendo's case specifically, I just don't understand their way of thinking sometimes. Nearly all of their handhelds and internet-enabled consoles have offered the same damn NES and SNES downloads time and again, and a handful of N64 games, and a variety of stuff from other 8 and 16 bit consoles.

But instead of building upon that, and moving into wider offerings such as more N64 games and GameCube games, or even Wii/Wii U games (could have been a thing, seeing as the other parties are also offering their previous gen games to members), they just keep on rehashing NES and SNES games, and with the new online service, they're apparently only for rent now. (unless I misunderstood that)

And then the prices: you can't keep charging 6 bucks/euros for ancient games like that, no matter how good they are. Nearly the entire catalog (except maybe for the more copyright complicated cases) of NES & SNES games should now be available for anywhere between 2 - 4 bucks/euros a piece, max.

For certain N64 games, I would be willing to pay more, but they need to start offering them first.

Now, of course, a considerable part of these downloaders will keep on downloading for free regardless, simply because they don't want to pay for anything, EVER.

But as for me: the primary reason I've downloaded all these ROMs from older consoles, is because I either couldn't find them on any eShop or Xbox equivalent, or because the cartridges themselves are either out of print/unavailable for purchase, or are by now SO rare, that they would cost me an arm and a leg to buy, and I refuse to do that. Gaming is a hobby for me, not something I wish or am able to spend my entire salary on....

So, if Nintendo starts offering a high quality, and well diversified service of their enormous catalog of games, for a decent price, then I'm pretty sure that at least a considerable part of the ROM downloaders will jump ship to this superior service, but Nintendo first needs to learn to fight the disease, much like the process that the music and movie business had to go through. (which, by the way, is still not perfect either, so it has some ways to go, but it is LEAGUES ahead of what Nintendo is doing)

People are obviously still downloading media, and probably will for as long as it is possible, but numbers have gone down across the board, and services like HBO, Netflix, and their music streaming equivalents have shown that there is a pretty decent market for this kind of thing, and the movie industry is making more money than ever before, regardless of day one illegal downloads.

Here's hoping that Nintendo will see the light and will finally follow this behavior, some time in the not too distant future, and will give (most of) us what we want, and that is unlimited and decently priced access to all of their previous gen games...

"A longer case would be costly for the individual, while a shorter one would allow Nintendo to avoid what is being described as "theoretical negative precedents" being established by the court over a long-term period"

Sounds like Nintendo wants this lawsuit to end before they get to the discovery phase, where the defendant's lawyer could potentially convince the judge to order Nintendo to turn over documents. Not sure what Nintendo is trying to hide, but I think this is likely why they want the case to end soon.

'"theoretical negative precedents" being established by the court over a long-term period'

This is precisely why these smaller guys need to fight the longer battle imo, because I feel there's certain areas of the law that right now are fuzzy to most people but would actually work out in favour of the consumers and other small creators and innovators if the courts were actually given proper time to think about some of this stuff and work out exactly where the law should stand in a way that makes it fair and equal for everyone.

And one of those areas would be with stuff like Let's Plays for example. There's also the whole area around keeping copies of games you own and that kind of thing too, which is even more relevant to this current case example.

Just "settling" without ever really putting up a fight simply hands all the cards to Nintendo, whether it rightfully and legally and fairly should be holding them all or not in whatever particular situation.

Nintendo already holds all the cards, legally and morally. The owner of the website is screwed no matter what he does.

@Lone_Beagle yeah people were quick to defend the site as claiming it was just retro stuff. Sorry but when you are allowing the whole DS and Wii library to be downloaded you can't be surprised when Nintendo fight back.

Here is idea for the rom website owner why not collaborate with Nintendo to bring classic games for the Switch eshop.

You guys can probably buy those NES, SNES, N64, and/or Gamecube mini Pi consoles that have 300+ games built into it for your retro needs.

Oh get lost, Nintendo. If you've got nothing better to do this month, then upload some of those roms to the eShop. Just like when you uploaded 'illegal' roms for the Wii Virtual Console. I'll never forget that one 😂

I think Nintendo are within their rights to do this, many people who download these roms and emulators don't buy or invest in Nintendo at all. Not all are like this but many are.

They download Nintendo emulators and roms and come online to whine about Nintendo while they rip them off.

I downloaded roms and emulators too but i don't talk $*** about Nintendo (unless i see a reason like Mario party+Pro controller issue) and i buy all of their products (every single handheld and console). I personally feel a bit peed off i can't download roms and emulators anymore but i understand the reasons... It's really been ruined by the people who don't support Nintendo while ripping them off for their IPS.

I'm an adult and i can understand when idiots ruin a good thing. It happens all the time. I'll take the hit to myself and i will continue to support Nintendo because this isn't their fault.

@Wanjia lets be real though... All this legally and morally aside.

The root of the issue comes from people who download these emulators and roms while not spending one penny in support of the company (or companies) that are responsible for them. Maybe not all the roms that get ripped off are games made by Nintendo themselves but lots are and all the emulators certainly are.

These people have the audacity to rip off and talk $*** about the company while not supporting them at all then get up in arms when said company stops them from ripping off their IPS.

Just forget the legality and morally of it all because it comes down to this at the end of it.

Granted not all are like this (like us) but many are... The saying goes "the minority always ruins it for the majority" unfortunately in this case it seems to be "the majority has ruined it for the minority"...

Video games gets likened to other entertainment media such as film and music...but maybe they are more like alcohol, because this all sounds rather like prohibition to me lmao.

@Razer You really seem to be hammering this 'many people who download ROMS don't give Nintendo a penny' BS. So tell me, where are the stats for this or are you just making this up? What percentage of people is 'many'.

You know, just yesterday I paid $60 for a used Final Fantasy III (SNES) cartridge from a used game store. I didn't pay a penny to Nintendo or Square Enix.

@TheGameTutor lol next month 20 a year lol

@ThanosReXXX yes for rent as is the free games Sony and xbox give for there paid services

@Wanjia copywrite law already has a time out period of the sort you’re describing. 100 years from now Little Sampson will be well and truly in the public domain for anyone to legally download and play!

@Crono1973 u could have bought from the Wii u Eshop for 8.or got a snes classic which is in every store in my area

@Crono1973 oh come on be real for a second, almost every PC gamer i have ever heard of rips off emulators and roms all the time, the whole of China is ripping off every IP ever made by any tech company ever, Nintendo among them. Dont be naive.

You don't need "stats" to show you illegal piracy numbers, such stats dont exist, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Anyone with half a brain knows its going on.

I also said not all do this (like us) but many do so try reading all my post before you jump the gun.

And will you really try and sit there and tell me that all the people who rip off Nintendo IPS through roms and emulators buy their stuff?

@Slim1999 It's not on the Wii U eShop and I already own an SNES Classic. I prefer to play the games off the cartridge. Anyway, my point is that downloading ROMS isn't the only way Nintendo isn't getting paid.

@Razer So you are just making stuff up, thanks for clarifying.

@HobbitGamer @Anti-Matter I’ll make popcorn if y’all want some.

@Crono1973 lol yep you really are that gullible... No clarification needed.

So on another topic, i have some perfectly legal DVDS to sell that are not pirated in any way shape or form... Perfect for someone of your level of intellect 👍. (I mean who pirates stuff right? 😂😂😂)

@Spectra
I'm not sure if you know about those Pi but those are not made by Nintendo as they have 300+ games including Japan only that have been translated into English. (Like Fire Emblem and Mother 3)
One having a overhaul of Link to the Past to make it feel like a new game with new story and mechanics.

NES one is pretty cheap right now, the others a pretty pricey.

@kobashi100 what the whole Wii and DS library Nintendo no longer produce and you can no longer buy new.

Yeah how dare they.

Nintendo won’t even let you buy games on Wii VC anymore.

Bit like the competitions here that I’m not allowed to comment on or enter. Nintendo aren’t making me want to spend money with them at all.

They remove online services and don’t support their back catalogue other than a handful of NES games and SNES.

Even if they managed to delete all the roms in the world this only highlights how out of touch Nintendo are....

Others have covered it. Let me buy the same twenty nes games again for £6 a pop.

Disgusting.

Almost criminal....

@Crono1973 That's a wildly asinine argument that doesn't apply in the least. Those are resale rights, which are well established. ROMs aren't being resold.

@PanurgeJr ...but that poster was complaining about people not giving Nintendo a penny but still playing the games.

@Wanjia "...morally... I'm not too sure I agree on that one. I don't believe that ROMs should be illegal otherwise we run the risk of losing the opportunity to experience older games..."

You do not have a moral right to play older games. There are reasons to question some of Nintendo's decisions — consumer relations is the biggest one — but they are legally and morally well within their rights on this issue.

@Crono1973 And not all situations occur in which it's okay to do so. Being entitled to buy used doesn't imply being entitled download ROMs with no remuneration for the copyright holder.

@PanurgeJr I say that neither benefits Nintendo and isn't that what's important to some posters?

People are the problems not the big corperations.

S

@Crono1973 Neither may benefit Nintendo, but one harms them; they're not equivalent, and you seem to be arguing something based on equivalence. Perhaps I misunderstood your attempted point.

@PanurgeJr Which one harms Nintendo and how?

@Crono1973 the limited numbers of resold games (& the market determined price) means that the inherent value of Nintendo’s games isn’t unduly undermined.

A ROM on the other hand can be copied a million times and downloaded for free as soon as a game is released. It erodes the value of Nintendo’s games so it’s obvious why they would oppose ROM sites.

@StuTwo Ok I can accept that but you also just made an argument for the lack of value in ROMS.

@SethNintendo a Nintendo apologist... there is a shock. I didn’t say you should do anything illegal. The fact is the Wii and online content has been abandoned. When apple abandon the iPhone 3 - they didn’t make you rebuy albums and movies for the 4 or 5 or X or even the Mac book or iPad. You buy content and use it on new devices.

Xbox have done the same. But once and if available on a new device use it again.

Nintendo come up with ways to block this and buy the same thing over and over.

Ditching the VC is all part of this.

Buying a game second hand is a grey area too if we are honest. That isn’t putting money to the Copyright holder. The games industry tried to block 2nd hand games sales.

Nintendo need to have a system when you buy content once digitally and then keep it and have access to it.

Instead they want you to pay for same thing every couple of years and now seem to want you just to rent it and constantly paid.

And on here yall making it sound like Rom sites are the issue.

Look at the VC history. It’s Ropey and been run horribly.

We are allowing it.

I really do appreciate the sentiment of preserving the history of gaming though ROM archives, and emulators were how I myself got to play those notoriously hard-to-come-by RPGs for SNES, that weren't on sale here in Scandinavia.

However, there are already (somewhat) certified archivers amassing all this data, who aren't distributing it to just everyone, and most of the famous games from back in the day are once again available through various legal sources.

I realize a lot of cult classics can't be found in other forms than illegal ROMs, unless you pay through the nose on eBay, but this isn't an argument for why ROM distribution sites should be allowed.

What it is, is an argument for why digital museum foundations ought to figure out how the rights would work for displaying these relics, calling for game players to donate and educate themselves.

Or an argument for rights holders needing to set their differences aside, and re-release their entire backlogs, in order to service the best interest of the art form, with the help of a game playing populace that works with them instead of against them.

Or an argument for establishing laws that allow serial-numbered and blockchain-locked virtualizations of archaic mediums, that enthusiasts can then borrow from each other in an orderly fashion.

@Stocksy We are losing The Last Remnant on Steam (and presumably on the 360 marketplace too) because it is being delisted. That seems to be happening alot lately where licensing issues are either responsible for games being altered or completely removed from availability.

As we can see with the Wii, the VC is not forever either. Having these ROMS on your own PC is really the only way to ensure continuing access to them. These corporations don't care about preservation at all and even if they did, licensing issues stand in the way.

I can't understand people going to bat for corporations and against themselves as consumers. As you said, these corporations tried to kill the used game market as well. They also see it as a threat to their profits.

Nintendo is in the right: they’re copywrited material is being distributed without their permission on a website, so they have started legal proceedings.

Nintendo is in the wrong: most of those ROMs aren’t playable on a modern console and Nintendo doesn’t sell them through an official outlet. It is piracy if Nintendo aren’t actually losing any money?

Nintendo are in the right: they might be planning to sell the ROMs on the Switch, and any ‘free’ outlet immediately devalues the whole prospect.

Nintendo are in the wrong: there are quite a few large ROM sites out there; why not go after them as well?

Nintendo are in the right: you can still buy a NES or SNES mini for an official nostalgia fix. They care about customer impressions and ROM dumps might contain all sorts of errors.

Nintendo are in the wrong: why aren’t SEGA and EA lining up to sue ROM sites as well? Perhaps it’s because EA don’t care about lost revenue from potential Jungle Strike sales.

Nintendo are in the right: they’re IP is being used in promotional materials without permission. Big no no.

Nintendo are in the wrong: I already paid for most of those ROMs back in the 1990’s. Why should I pay for a game more than once? It’s not my fault Nintendo don’t allow me to take my purchases onto the next console.

@Crono1973 ROMs have no value - they can’t be legally sold.

They have a perceived value because they are games you’d normally have to pay a high price for.

@StuTwo Nintendo sells ROMS, they must be making a fortune at anywhere from $5 to $20 each since it costs nothing to reproduce them.

I just think this is just silly. Nintendo's poor way of going about having their old games available aside, they should realize that they can't stop the emulation crowd no matter what they do so what this is in my opinion is just a waste of time and money. Also it continues to make people see them in a more negative light.

@SethNintendo XBOX rectified that later in the generation and is now the only one of the three (for this gen) to offer backwards compatibility not just with 360 games but even games from the original Xbox. One of my grievances with the Switch is the lack of backwards compatibility,even if I understand why it needed to happen.

@TheGameTutor lol never! But emulating modded classic nes/snes for the entire library would make them say mamamia!

@SethNintendo Xbox let me use BC digital copies. Not everything unfortunately but at least when they added games back they let me use disc or digital. That’s massive and should be normal.

Sony and Nintendo are in the dark ages with their approach. Microsoft only did it because they lost the war this generation.

@SethNintendo yes you can do that.

If you both digital version of any of the BC titles you have access and if you own disc. It’s really amazing and should be standard

@Razer What you're doing is trying to BS your way from having to provide anything to actually back yourself up.

So be real for a second and stop pretending what you're saying is gospel truth.

@Crono1973 I’m sure they are making a fortune!

You’re mistaking the cost of production with the marketable value though. Anyone can produce unlimited copies of a ROM but only Nintendo - holding the licenses for those games can legally sell them. And it’s within their gift to set whatever price protects their position in the industry.

@PanurgeJr That's not a false equivalence. Regardless of whether you pirate a game or re-sell a game to someone else or some place specializing in the buying and selling of games, the core of the fact is that Nintendo in either case doesn't make money.

You're applying harm where harm doesn't actually exist. Harm can only be applied when the pirating of a ROM would cause Nintendo to lose a sale. Unfortunately for your narrative, the pirating of a ROM doesn't necessarily lead to the permanent loss of a sale.

What's more, the majority of game software piracy happens for games that cannot be legally obtained anymore. A lot of those old games have zero market footprint, so to say pirating them is actually causing harm is literally absurd.

@Razer By the way, what the heck does China has to do with this conversation? You went completely off the rails and aren't even properly responding at that point.

Secondly, if you seriously think that most people who pirate stuff don't actually buy any games, then congratulations, you're the one who's naive here. Those people who DL the ROMs probably have plenty of games they have bought legally.

I own a Nintendo Switch, a PS4, a Nintendo 3DS, and a Gaming Laptopn (and MSI to be exact), and I still have pirated stuff. Namely PS1 and PS2 games and even SNES and GBA games. Do you know why?

That is because the good, vast majority of those games are no longer in print nor being distributed, and as research in the past has shown, Nintendo has likely used these ROM sites to download ROMs of their own stuff, which implies, that the masters for those games either no longer exist or are corrupt beyond usability due to decay.

The point being without these ROM websites, these companies will eventually completely lose the ability to reproduce these ROMS or ISOs for whatever reason. People like us, who rip those ROMs and ISOs, are the last line of defense for these game's collective existence. Without us, they will just disappear completely to be forgotten.

nintendo please concentrate more efforts on making some new games, you are the best at it and don't need to worry about roms when people are lapping up your new console to play new games! this year is a huge disappointment from you so far and this relentless piracy press just seems to exist due to really slow news from yourselves.

@Razer

Here's a paragraph from an earlier post you made:

"The root of the issue comes from people who download these emulators and roms while not spending one penny in support of the company (or companies) that are responsible for them. Maybe not all the roms that get ripped off are games made by Nintendo themselves but lots are and all the emulators certainly are."

That first sentence is precisely where the "legal/moral" arguments become null and void, and why law enforcement hasn't exactly vigorously pursued ROM sites or downloaders over the years. Why? Look no further than the LEGAL option available to consumers after a publisher no longer makes, distributes, or supports a given game or product. That's right, I'm talking about the secondary market, from eBay to your friendly local GameStop.

You see, here's the thing about used games, whether they're "retro" or current-gen titles: Nintendo and other publishers don't make a penny from ANYTHING purchased used. Having worked at GameStop myself, I can tell you that used games are their bread and butter, resold for an insane profit margin given what they typically offer for trade-ins. Legal? Yes. Ethical? Ask anyone who's taken a bunch of games to trade in who recalls their reaction when they were told what their trade was "worth".

That, in a nutshell, is why the entire videogame industry, including Nintendo, wants to pursue an all-digital marketplace. To them used games are the same as ROM sites; just means for consumers to get their hands on their products (oops, I mean "services") where they aren't making any money off the transaction (setting aside for the moment that ROM sites don't charge for their downloads). The legality is very much a secondary concern.

Most gamers, myself included, have legally supported the industry since its inception and would readily buy a game if it was made available, say, on the eShop, but many retro games, including beloved classics like GoldenEye 007, may never be released ever again due to various reasons including licensing issues. Many of the companies that made games "back in the day" are long gone as well, if there are even still rights attached to a given game, they aren't attached to that publisher any longer. Sure, you could legally purchase one of these games via eBay at a ridiculous price (seen the asking price for Panzer Dragoon Saga?), or you can download its ROM for free.

Given that choice, is there really a "right" or "wrong" approach as a consumer? That would be up to the individual, I guess.

Either way, whether it's closing ROM sites or strangling the life out of brick-and-mortar retail chains like GameStop and Best Buy, it all comes down to one simple thing for Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and the other mega-publishers: CONTROL. Not just at but also AFTER the original point-of-sale, from your access to certain content to your experience (any time you're spending offline is time your experience can't be gated, controlled, and most importantly exploited for more $$$, which is why we've already seen single-player campaigns, splitscreen local multiplayer modes, and entire genres become rarer over the past few years). Day One DLC, overpriced Map Packs, Season Passes, Always Online, Free-to-Play, Loot Crates...all of these are business models that have been steadily pushing the envelope toward training consumers to accept less and less in exchange for more and more $$$.

Oh, but it gets better. Things like subscription models and streaming games will mean the END of any notion of ever owning a legally purchased game ever again on your part. Those EULAs you're starting to have to click to agree to before being able to play a game you already legally paid real money for (example: Star Wars Battlefront II) are basically you agreeing that you as a consumer have NO rights. So just consider what paying for a subscription REALLY means: you're throwing endless money into a bottomless pit, and you still have absolutely no say in what the seller offers or any control over anything. No rights as a consumer.

And whenever Nintendo or one of these other companies decide to pull the plug on the servers, it and whatever you've invested real money into for it are gone forever. Ready Player One-style, your real world cash goes into their coffers and your virtual investments dissolve into smoke.

So, make your own call regarding the morality of ROM sites or downloading ROMs; I'm just trying to educate everyone here regarding the "ethics" of what is happening in the Big Picture here. Based on their publicly announced plans for the future, Nintendo and the other major publishers don't exactly hold the moral high ground regardless of legality, and aside from ROM sites there is no other way we'll ever see countless games ever again. Huge swaths of the hobby's entire history are going to be erased. As gamers we'll always love videogames and most of us will legally support them, but don't confuse these corporate giants as being your friends or always being "in the right". There's a lot more happening here, and it isn't necessarily good for either us or the hobby.

@Anti-Matter Why are you the way that you are?

@StuTwo Please stop preaching what's legal and not legal, we all already know this and we are still here debating so you're gonna need to come up with something more convincing.

@SethNintendo Are you so confident in Nintendo purchased digital games? When your hardware containing your Wii VC games dies, you won't be able to redownload them.

I’m pretty grateful I already had some great snes roms downloaded for my hacked snes mini. The likes of Hagane and Majou Ouu are absolute classics which I never would have been able to play if it hadn’t been for these sites.

It is a good thing for Nintendo to take down illegal Rom-selling sites.
It helps towards protecting Nintendo for future console/game/service releases.
Protection of Nintendo revenue makes game development much easier- for better, higher quality games.

@SethNintendo That won't work for the Wii VC games (and Wiiware), the store is closing in January. How will you get those back?

@Wanjia "Morals are subjective."

No they're not. I'm not going to get into a protected philosophical debate with you. I will simply observe that moral relativism is an intellectually bankrupt and untenable philosophy that can only lead to anarchy.

@Mountain_Man Some people think it's morally wrong to kill babies in the womb while others think it's not morally wrong. Morals are indeed subjective.

@SethNintendo Yes, it's happening in two phases. First you could no longer add money to your account but you can still spend any money you still have on your account until they completely close the shop next January.

See, this isn't the same as Steam. You will lose whatever money you put into Wiiware and Wii VC games the minute your hardware dies. This will also happen to the Wii U and 3DS in the near future. Does this change your view any?

@Crono1973 "Some people think it's morally wrong to kill babies in the womb while others think it's not morally wrong. Morals are indeed subjective."

Subjective application of morality does not prove that the underlying morality that governs human behavior is subjective.

@SethNintendo Wii Shop lasted 12 years. So look at your physical game collection, set aside any game that predates 2006 (12 years or older). Now take those games you set aside and treat them as if you threw them away because you can no longer play them. That's the all digital future and it's why consumers NEED to take preservation into their own hands.

@Mountain_Man So morality really is subjective in practice.

I get that there is a myriad of legal issues, licensing, etc but I wish the industry as a whole could devise a solution to allow access to old games. Far too much stuff is almost impossible to get legally. They, the industry, should be more active in the games preservation initiative.

I seriously believe that the only people who really debate this issue are children, or those who have no experience at all in business. Nintendo must defend their IP because it is literally their bread and butter, their property, and their business valuation may be damaged otherwise if investors start to believe that thieves are openly profiting off of Nintendo's IP without them doing anything about it. Nintendo is already pretty tight about the image that they project as a maker of video games, and I imagine they have no tolerance for these so called fans who think nothing of literally stealing the property of the company who they supposedly are fans of. We as consumers have no right to Nintendo's goods and services unless Nintendo has agreed to sell it to us. If they have not agreed to sell their products and services to us, and we are instead pirating those products, then that is theft by law. I have met plenty of people who rip off ROMS. Many of them I met in middle school and high school, and they were ripping off ROMS because they were broke kids who couldn't afford to purchase these games in any other way. I have also met adults in the present who rip off ROMS, and most of them are similar to the kids in that they are unemployed and broke. Because they have no money to buy their own games, they download ROMS of whatever they can find to entertain themselves. Of course there are those who simply download ROMS because they don't think anything of it, but in all three cases, theft is still theft. I have no desire to download ROMS when I own most NES and SNES games I want on Wii U VC or 3DS VC, where people can support Nintendo by purchasing these games that they are offering for sale, not to mention the NES Classic and SNES Classic. Support the company you profess to love instead of ripping them off. I owned plenty of NES and SNES classics on my original NES and SNES consoles when I was a child, but that does not mean that I believe that I am entitled to illegally own the ROMS of those games for the rest of my life. The cartridges were what was originally paid for, and with those long gone, I had to repurchase those titles if I wanted to enjoy them again. You can either be in both the moral and legal right (from not stealing goods and services from a company), or you can literally steal goods and services and be a thief.

I would be fine as long as Nintendo lets me stream their back catalogue of all their games pre-GameCube. It really wouldn’t be that hard for them to do and the would put pressure on the rest of the industry to adapt.

@Spectra Um... Nothing at all? Nothing is wrong with that. Nintendo did put GBA games as an Ambassor program, but I can vouch for Nintendo that emulating GBA games on 3DS right now is impossible.

There's the Nintendo Switch Online Service and if we're positive on this, we'll get more than just NES games on the service like SNES, GB/GBC, GBA and possbily Gamecube games or more Nintendo Systems except for possbily the DS. So people need to be patient about this instead of complaining and whining about it. Which is what almost every person on the internet does, whine and complain, trying to make game companies give in to their demands, which almost always doesn't work.

Part of the problem is Nintendo's fault. They have been ripping off for years. The Wii VC was good because it was the first, everyone understood that Nintendo could not know if you had purchased a Super Mario 64 cartridge or whatever.

Then Wii U came and they already knew if we had bought any retro releases on Wii and we didn't get the games that we have already bought but we got a discount using stupid explanations like the Miiverse implementation which was automatic and just for taking screenshots and commenting on them so they charged us for that.

Then (New) 3DS arrived and no discounts at all even if you have bought Super Mario World on Wii and Wii U. Screw you, Nintendo said.

Then Switch came and Nintendo told us forget about all your VC purchases on Wii, Wii U and 3DS, now you are going to pay again for buying any retro releases on the eShop and also subscribe to a service with only NES games announced this far.

Through the years Nintendo has been ripping us off for basic ROMs multiple times and many people are tired of Nintendo because of that.

Even if it is not all right to me, Nintendo has been promoting illegal practices somehow and abusing the most loyal consumers miserably.

Nintendo has every right to do this. No company owes a consumer access to back products or even a modern delivery system of back products. Sure it is nice to have when they do it but when they don’t it doesn’t grant any the right to steal those products. If you do and get away with it that is your decision but it doesn’t make those actions right. Consumer products are designed by their very nature to be limited runs. No company makes plans to support or produce a product into eternity. Yet entitled consumers think they deserve such production or support. Media is consumed, buy and use it when available or a legal second hand market and when it isn’t and then move on to the next currently available product. If you missed out you missed out.

@MegaVel91 Yeah, no. If you don't understand resale rights and how they don't apply to ROMs, I'm not interested in attempting to educate you.

@Crono1973 I don’t need to come up with anything more than I have. Nintendo owns the rights. We’re free to disagree with their pricing but they’re free to set it. It’s their legal and moral right.

Everyone knows that. Some are happy to take regardless while others live in denial. I don’t really care either way.

The questions about costs of production and value are interesting but they’re not the questions you’re interested in debating.

I hear a lot of people complaining that it their right to copy games (it isn’t), or that they’d pay if there was a way. Yet I don’t ever hear of pirates cutting a cheque to all the developers whose games they’ve played.

If you’ve pirated, why not flick $2-4 per game to every developer?

[crickets chirping]

@BlueOcean When did Nintendo tell you to "forget" about all of your old purchases? I never get this argument because if you purchased VC titles on the Wii or Wii U, you can still play them whenever you want, can't you? I don't recall Nintendo telling people to delete their old VC or to forget about them. I filled up my Wii U hard drive and my 3DS micro SD card with VC titles knowing that I could easily play them at any time in the future if I desire. And I still do - I was playing Ninja Gaiden 1 on my 3DS this morning. It is your fault if you unplugged your system and can't play your games anymore, not Nintendo's. And Nintendo's new online service with NES games coming back are being upgraded with modern features, such as online play, and you left that out of your complaining. It should be noted that Nintendo isn't just rehashing these NES games, they are given us something we have not had before. I find it amusing that you say that Nintendo is ripping you off for "basic roms" when these games are literally their property, that they own and created, that they are selling to the public. If you don't want to buy, then don't buy, but stealing the games when you refuse to buy them (like some ROM theives do) just makes you a thief in every sense of the word. Not saying that you are a thief, but anybody who downloads ROMS illegally is literally a thief.

Rom sites are a library. The library doesnt own the copywright to any of the books. The authors cant sue a library for offering their book to be checked out. Same here. And libraries are not an immoral practice because you dont pay the author for the book or the musician for the music or the actors for the movies the library offers. All the "but they dont own the rights" talk is missing the picture completely. Its a library. At the end of the day you dont have the real book or cd or whatever. You might make a copy at the library but you still dont own the book. You might own the rom but you dont really have a copy of little sampson. Moral preening on this is completely misguided. It's a library.

@Crono1973 Careful. Half of those old SNES games are fake.

Maybe Nintendo should go after these instead...

@Priceless_Spork Libraries tend to be run by a city, government body or university/school. Not the same can be said of a rom site.

@Pod Preserving the game somewhere where no one can play it basically makes it as good as dead though.

@MegaVel91 how would the masters decay?

Just release classic games on Switch for God's sake
What's the point of taking action against rom websites if you don't bring a way to get these legaly ? Even Nintendo already used these "illegals roms" for their WiiWare service so they know how these are used
Come on, just give us the informations we need about your online service, what's the replacement of the VirtualConsole etc etc, everybody is waiting for that

Personally I have no problem with ROM sites - specifically ones that have old unavailable games - but if said site is asking for money then all bets are off. You would have to be extremely naive to expect Nintendo to take no legal action.

I wonder why it has taken so long for this to occur. And for those who actively pirate current games I have zero sympathy.

@Priceless_Spork Its not even close to the same. Most libraries are non-profit and purchase the books for the intention to loan out. When you are borrowing form a library you are removing a copy from their collection and signing a contract to return that copy or face heavy fines for the cost of the loaned material. A ROM site can still distribute that ROM file even if you download one so it is not the same. Libraries are easily covered under fair use, while ROM sites are a grey area at best. Its a false equivalent.

For further reading : http://www.arl.org/focus-areas/copyright-ip/fair-use#.W4Mi4s5KhhE

LOL
Already more than 100 posts.

@boop22
Well...
There is Nothing i can do but watch peoples here keep arguing between "This is Right." & "This is Not Right."

@Crono1973 The one which violates Nintendo's copyrights harms them by violating their copyrights.

@LightBeam Nobody is granted the right to distribute Nintendo's IP if Nintendo chooses not to. Nintendo is under no obligation to distribute it. They are, however, under an obligation to protect their IP. All corporations that have shareholders are.

what i find hilarious is that these games that are being "pirated" are games that nintendo themselves no longer sell. My god. Everyone here needs to get a damn grip.

@boop22 Yes, so many corporate knights here with rusted armor.

@Priceless_Spork Lol at comparing a website which has uploaded illegal roms, which can be down-loaded an infinite number of times, to a library system where individual, physical books are loaned out that must be returned. The problem with many of the people trying to argue in favor of illegal ROM websites is that they are completely unfamiliar with the business laws that govern fair use and copyrights. Let me inform you. Libraries are allowed to let people borrow their books because #1 The library paid for those physical books. Once the physical book is purchased, the library retains ownership rights to those specific copies of the book. Now for: #2 Under U.S. Copyright Law, The owner of a copy of media, such as a book or a physical game cartridge, is allowed to share that copy of the media with anybody they wish. This is called the First Sale Doctrine. It means that if you purchase a copy of media, you are now the owner of that media, and you may resell that particular copy to someone else, let someone else borrow it, or donate it if you want - And that is all within your right as the owner. However, the copyright holder holds reproduction rights to that piece of media, which means that you cannot reproduce that media or else you will be breaking copyright law! That means that if you own a library, and you want more copies of a popular book, you must purchase those copies either brand new or second-hand. The library MAY NOT REPRODUCE THE BOOK ITSELF AND MAKE NEW COPIES. This is exactly the problem with ROM sites. ROM sites basically offer infinite copies of media to anybody who decides to download. This breaks copyright law because Nintendo has never sold licenses to reproduce copies of their games. They only sell individual pieces of media - such as physical cartridges or discs, or individual downloads that are offered online. They do not sell licenses for any guy with a Super Mario Bros. cartridge to upload copied Super Mario Bros. ROMS on a website to the entire world for free. That is stealing someone else's copyrighted material and making illegal copies for other people to steal. That is basic theft, and I hope you now have a better understanding of the very real laws that govern this kind of thing. Libraries and ROM websites have literally nothing in common.

@Trajan It depends on the media the data for those games is stored on, or where the data is stored, and whatever Nintendo's preservation practices (if any) are.

Back in the 80 when Nintendo really got into the video game console and software market, floppy disks were still very prominent for computers and CD-ROMs were just then beginning to come into the market when the 90s rolled around. Floppy Disks and CD-ROMs are bpoth mediums that can experience physical degradation that could permanently alter or corrupt the data on them, making them unusable.

With the recent evidence Nintendo may have been using ROM sites to retrieve copies of their old games from the internet, the fact they had to do that implies the master either can't be obtained, or if they are obtainable, they went the easy route instead of looking for them.

So whether or not the original masters for the games that were eventually used for production are still around or not is something we will never know.

@Crono1973 "So morality really is subjective in practice."

Only in the sense that people are free to behave immorally. This is the nature of freewill.

@PanurgeJr You're the one who isn't understanding something here. My understanding of resale rights isn't the core of the issue here.

The core of the issue, is that when you resale a game or pirate a ROM, neither of them resale in money for Nintendo or any company. That's what the guy was originally saying. In that way, the two are equivalent. The only big difference between the two is their legality.

So please don't talk down to me when it's clear you're the one who didn't understand.

@Wanjia "Moral values are not protected. They're subjective. Most westerners countries frown upon eating dog or horse and call it morally wrong, yet in other countries it's not a problem."

You're confusing cultural values with moral values. It's a common mistake.

Very hostile group 😑

@TheGameTutor That's not a correct way of thinking. Nintendo decides how it will give you its games to you. You are not to decide. Simple as that. It's their creation, not yours.

@Priceless_Spork "Rom sites are a library. The library doesnt own the copywright to any of the books. The authors cant sue a library for offering their book to be checked out. Same here."

Bad analogy. First of all, libraries compensate the rights holders for every item in their collection. Secondly, libraries offer temporary, limited access to their collections; in the case of physical items, they can't lend more than they have on hand, and in the case of digital, only a certain number of people at a time are allowed access. Finally, copyright law explicitly allows for the lending or sale of a copyrighted work, but it does not allow one to distribute copies of that work, even for free. Warez sites do not meet any of these criteria.

Nice try, though.

Now if a game collector with a collection of physical cartridges decided to open his own private lending library, that's perfectly legal, and Nintendo wouldn't be able to touch him. What he couldn't do is make copies of those cartridges and distribute them.

@Slim1999 Only partially the same, seeing as on Xbox, you can actually keep any free Xbox 360 downloads. Only Xbox One downloads are disabled/for rent only during an active Xbox Live subscription.

And more important: both Microsoft and Sony offer FAR more modern games to their subscribers, so in this day and age, Nintendo really shouldn't be getting away anymore with only offering NES, SNES and N64 titles, let alone at the prices that they are offered at...

They need to step it up, and fast.

I agree with everyone wanting Nintendo to offer a way to legally view their backlog of games 105%! I think I must have said a dozen times on this site how much I want VC or something like it on Switch.

But even if they aren't offering it currently, that doesn't mean they forfeit their IP rights. If Disney doesn't re-release "The Little Mermaid" for several years that doesn't give us permission to go pirate it...

These sites got complacent about what they were doing, they were far too obvious about it. The people who sell burned DVDs to their coworkers in backrooms never get caught. It's the people who do so openly in a storefront for the world to see who get shut down.

@AtlanteanMan Very, VERY well said. Nail on the head, my friend. You've gotten WAY too few likes for that brilliant, elaborate and irrefutably logical comment.

In the end cultural values and morals are the same; human make believe to fool us into thinking we aren't just animals.

What I'd do if I were him is argue those games aren't being actively sold by Nintendo except on a system that is dead and another that is dying and even then the games aren't all being sold.

Out of court settlements are usually how these things go. Court is just a way to force the other side to come to the table. In the end Nintendo would take it to court if needed, but they know they won't get enough money out of a court fight to cover the costs. Nintendo ninjas can't be cheap.

@saintayu "In the end cultural values and morals are the same..."

Not even close to being correct. Morality shapes culture, not the other way around.

Weren't these room sites using Nintendo's IP to make money off of users clicking advertisement links?

It's not like Nintendo is going after a site that freely gives out their IP, they're going after a site that distributes their IP and profits from it. In this case it's a no brainer.

@Trajan
Presevation and public availability are two different things, but I totally get what you are saying.

You know what I find funny? That Nintendo targets rom sites and shuts them down, while Sega and Atari openly sell a licensed handheld by Atgames that has an SD Card Slot and openly explain how to add games to the devices.

So on one hand, we have Nintendo and their closed door policy to emulation and Roms, while Sega and Atari pretty much have no problem with people emulating roms and adding games to their handhelds.

I love Nintendo for their games, but Sega has always been the cooler company when it comes to this kinda thing. They make adding your own roms a selling point of buying an Atgames handheld.

As a librarian myself, the library analogy above was really bad.

@Cosats I totally agree with everything you say but at the end of the day it is not possible for me to play everything. The other day I wanted to.play the satellavision version of Zelda... I physically can't do this without resorting to using a ROM. Once upon a time I pirated tv shows as living in the UK I would get then late and get spoiled but in this age of Netflix I haven't pirated a film or tv show for many years. I would also never pirate a current game. Buying a second hand copy of a game still doesn't give nintendo any money.

I have over 50 physical switch games and over 150 digital so I will happily give nintendo my money but there is simply no way to play certain historically important games without resorting to the grey market. Again it may not be totally morally correct but it's that situation we are in.

@Mountain_Man LOL they are words that describe concepts that humanity invented during the "awakening". If you actually read my comment you'd realize what I meant.

@AquaVibe "t's not like Nintendo is going after a site that freely gives out their IP, they're going after a site that distributes their IP and profits from it."

Doesn't matter if they were giving them away for free or making a profit, what they were doing is a violation of copyright law.

@electrolite77 Thanks very much for the nice compliment.
Much appreciated.

Either way this changes nothing and stops no one.

Ah yes, the law (at least in the US) — Many a court case decided by a battle of money attrition.

Nintendo doesn't own every rom that was for the NES, SNES, N64. Nintendo only owns the games that they made. If a 3rd party made a game for a Nintendo system and doesn't care if their roms are given out, then who is to stop them? That's like saying Microsoft owns every executable (exe) that was ever made. That's insane!

if Nintendo would just hire these people to port their back catalog to the newest system, Nintendo would make a "not so small fortune", and people wouldn't download nearly as many roms. Im not going to go out and buy a Wii U to play wind waker when I can get it for free on the internet. if it was on the switch however (exactly the same as Wii U remaster, nothing added) at full price, I would have bought it yesterday. for stuff that is impossible to get (older more obscure games that aren't on any VC) it might not even be technically illegal if the rom site claims fair use for the copyright (in America) as Nintendo isn't technically losing any money because they don't sell these games anymore.

If you had read my first post on this topic, you would have read that when I was a child, I met many other kids who pirated ROMS. They pirated ROMS because they were free games. Kids love games, and they espicially love free games since kids are usually broke (since they are children). And trust me, there were no adults promoting ROMS to us. Kids passed on various websites to each other where ROMS and emulators could be downloaded. I have yet to meet a child who was "forced" to pirate anything because of pressure from an adult. And I never stated that children in particular promote piracy. What I did say was that i feel that children are more likely to not understand the laws that govern copyrights and what you can and can't do with a purchased piece of media.