This week some debate arose around the localisation of Fire Emblem Fates, when it emerged that a 'drugging' scene, in which a character sees men as women and women as men, had been removed from the game in its Western versions. Nintendo stated, rather simply, that in the localised version "there is no expression which might be considered as gay conversion or drugging that occurs between characters". Localisation can be a tricky topic, of course, and some were unhappy that content from the Japanese version has been changed, while others supported the removal of a scene that a fair number will regard as inappropriate.
No doubt aware of the online debate around this Nintendo has issued a statement clarifying that such changes are natural in localisation, and has also highlighted that Fates will also have some same-sex marriage options through the campaigns. Marriage was a key part of Fire Emblem: Awakening, as pairing characters together for extended periods would see them form relationships, marry and perhaps even have children; in practical terms marriage gave that team stat boosts to improve their performance. The statement is below (thanks, Siliconera):
Making changes is not unusual when we localize games, and we have indeed made changes in these games. When we localize a game we do so in order to make it appropriate for that particular territory. All our choices were made from that point of view.
In the Conquest edition a male main character created by the gamer can pair up with another male character (Niles) which ultimately leads to marriage. Similarly, in the Birthright edition, a female main character created by the gamer can pair up with and eventually marry another female character (Rhajat). Like married couples of the opposite gender, these same-sex couples enjoy the stat boosts that come with marriage, which means when they are paired up in battle they are stronger than when they are apart or paired up with another character.
In the third edition, Revelation, that will be released as DLC in the eShop on March 10, a same-sex marriage is possible regardless of the sex of your main character, as both Niles and Rhajat can be encountered in this edition.
Though the same-sex marriage options are limited, this does nevertheless seem like a notable step for Nintendo, and a case of it following through on its promises from a Tomodachi Life controversy in 2014. When the Mii-sim was released in the West without support for same-sex marriage it prompted a 'Miiquality' campaign. Nintendo's response was criticised and it apologised for its handling of the issue, promising that a future entry in the series would "strive to design a game-play experience from the ground up that is more inclusive, and better represents all players". By utilising the resources at its disposal when localising Fire Emblem Fates, Nintendo seems to - in a limited but welcome way - be showing commitment to that aim for more inclusion in these aspects of its games.
It's a step, at least, and naturally optional for players in terms of the editions they buy and the characters they marry together.
As an editor's note, I'm leaving comments open but want to emphasize the message that debate should stay on topic and be respectful; if either of those aspects are ignored the comments section will be shut down in this article. Please refer to my editorial on the Tomodachi Life issue if you want any more context relating to this policy.
[source siliconera.com]
Comments 159
so the western version is actually more politically correct? or have i misunderstood something?
@6ch6ris6 the scene didn't even have conversion or drugging. The people making the accusations cannot even read Japanese.
I still don't understand why the same sex option isn't available for the character from the whole "drugging" fiasco.
Still on board with the few options given to us here. I'll have to look into these characters and see if I like them enough to marry one during a run of the game.
@R-L-A-George Please enlighten us then. Isn't a girl secretly given a potion to make her see swaps of genders and then falls in love with a guy because she fell in love with the girl version of him? Sounds like she was converted to me.
@Browny That IS a bit odd, considering she is obviously lesbian
As for the scene itself, while it can be misunderstood due to errors, it still wasn't very good at all and can be taken the wrong way. I do wonder what they replaced the dialogue with. Maybe she will mention an "exception" to her preferences?
This issue has veen debated to death so a total side thing here but do others find Bi characters in these sort of games aren't as well written as their straight/gay/lesbian cohorts?
They are usually pretty vauge in their dealings with the player characters. Obviously this is because the character doesn't know if the player is actually male/female and gives gender neutral responses but they usually are the weakest romances.
This whole thing is odd. I'm glad that the same-sex marriages are still possible as it is a nice nod to our more socially-accepting world today (despite all of the horrible things which still happen on a daily basis, but let's not go there).
Personally, I'd prefer if all characters could attain an S rank with each other, regardless of sexual orientation. On the battlefield, what if you just REALLY enjoyed battling alongside your best friend? Surely that would be the equivalent to an S class relationship
Well, localisation is localisation. Sounds like a funny, whacky scene but if the big N reckons it'd be bad for business then they got to do what they got to do. It's a pretty trivial change and no big deal. Certainly not as big a deal as the lack of a European release date!!!!
@The_BAAD_Man lol yeah that's the thing i never understood either. why are you getting stronger when you fight with the person you are married with? doesnt make any sense to me
@andrew20 know idea what your sentence is suppose to mean
I think the job of a journalist is to actually research on what they post instead of just post hearsay as it is. I know NL is more of a professional blog than anything, but still. It's worth pointing out how well nichegamer tackled the drugging story in a more informed and objective manner.
@Darkness3131 or at least able to be deactivated
@andrew20 If you don't like it then just don't romance those two characters, problem solved.
@R-L-A-George Without wanting to wade too far into this, is there actually a copy of the original dialogue hanging around?
I still don't like games being changed for whatever reason while in localisation (with the exception of stuff that is prohibited by law).
If the devs made the game one way it should be the same game in every region. No matter if possible changes are positive or negative.
but you don't have to marry someone of the same sex in the game, so I don't see the problem. Plus there is nothing inappropriate about being gay or lesbian so get over it already
@andrew20 this isn't a part of the story so unless you want your avatar character to enter a homosexual relationship you won't see this or any other gay scenes if Nintendo's statement is fact. Which is good for you I suppose if this offends you.
Sometimes I do not understand what I write.
@TheLastLugia OK so it is optional.
@andrew20 Yes, you don't have to enter a homosexual relationship if you don't want to. Just like real life.
Which one is the easier and what one is harder.
So we want a fantasy story to be more like reality? How about we censor Star Wars and Star Trek for depicting relationships outside the ones accepted by the majority of North America and Western Europe? Or we could resurrect the unpleasant argument about Grand Theft Auto's treatment of women, which again is unacceptable to the majority. Can't we just leave artists to create what they want and see what they're trying to express, rather than impose restrictions based on politically sensitive issues and tell them what they should express? Apologies for any offense caused, I'm not trying to be controversial, merely express my concerns about a seemingly growing desire among many to try to ban or censor different ideas rather than discuss them.
They did the same thing with Pokemon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, there was a folk tale that said people used to marry Pokemon way back when in the original Japanese text. That got localized out as well. No big deal.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Fire Emblem decision had more to do with ESRB ratings in the US more than anything else.
i remember the same solution with Tomodachi Life.
and people where upset about that too.
It's a game. Not real life. I am not happy about all the kidnapping that takes place in Mario games, that might sit OK with Japanese gamers but where I live it is a rare occurrence.
This looks like a clean up act.
"Making changes is not unusual when we localize games, and we have indeed made changes in these games. When we localize a game we do so in order to make it appropriate for that particular territory. All our choices were made from that point of view".
Can hurl a chunk now or later.
They are saying North America can't handle the original story. ( which is fantasy)
Judging by these absurd comments yesterday they are on to something, but somehow we lost something even if it is a small portion of the game. It didn't really effect gameplay. So Nintendo is saying look at me we included gay characters. Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't they already in the game? They just don't get it sometimes.
It is censorship for a declining market.
@zool Haha, not to mention Peach always offering cake to people. Doesn't she care about diabetes and obesity?
Same sex marriage should be male and female in all versions imho but its a step in the right direction.
This is like if a kid wanted to have a PG13 Deadpool ... oh wait ...
It's disappointing that they didn't go into any detail about what happens instead in the controversial scene in the western localisation. I don't like localisation changes and only want them to change the absolute minimum. I would have been happy playing the game with the original scene, but I can understand that they needed to change it in this case to prevent a much greater backlash.
It still seems very silly that only male characters can marry each other in Conquest, and only females in Birthright.
Amazingly, I think they handled the censorship in this game in the best way possible - they got rid of a scene that was pretty offensive in every way you looked at it, but they actually did keep gay marriages in, thankfully.
@JohnnyC
That would be the ideal, but some people think they have a right to interfere in another person's work. I'm a believer in letting people make what they want, within reason (a portrait painted in blood on a human skin canvas is definitely a no-no).
Well I guess I'm Bi curious now because my Fire Emblem character is so going to be gay.
Let me clean this up to: and there is nothing wrong with that.
What? Tomodachi Emblem is coming out? I'll finally be able to see all my favorite Fire Emblem characters sharing zany moments together while chowing down on their favorite meals. The best part is that I'll have a better shot of finding the special edition for Tomodachi Emblem than for Fire Emblem Fates.
@andrew20
as long as we have it without the straight stuff I guess its fine.... Just fall in love with someone of the opposite gender (like you probably do in real life) and you won't have to "see" the gay stuff.
@AyeHaley
agreed, which now makes me want the third version only, but alas.
localisation should not exist.just translate and hands of.it makes no sense at all.
We could just a fore emblem game that focuses on friendships and stuff like that verses straight up marriages. Being in war with someone builds bonds, which makes more sense then getting married randomly.
Or just take out gay marriage since it causes more controversy when it's in a game verses when its out of it.
@River3636 Did you just change your avatar in the 15 minutes since you posted your comment to look more like a bi-curious guy?
@River3636
they had to mention the marriage part because they're letting us know they changed/removed something from the Japanese version, and they didn't want us to think it was that portion.
@ASonic3582
dangerous things can happen when you give into a majority, (take a look at history to see my point), sometimes we can't always wait for a majority to agree before we move forward.
@scamander yes and no. No, I originally use this avatar on a topic where people were talking about scantily clad outfits in video games and how it objectifies women. I also, like this avatar because I'm always at the beach except for this time of year. (It's like 60° outside. Yuck)
Yes, because it adds to the effect and it is relevant to the topic.
@RoomB31 I know, but didn't they already have it in the Japanese version?
Really the best thing to do would have been to alter the wording slightly so that the character knows she's taking the potion (ie. consents to it) - after all, I assume there's room for interpretation when translating from Japanese to English. Generally though, I think accepting all this is sending the message we aren't mature enough to accept the games as they're designed.
Ugh this whole thing is so dumb. So in Awakening, when two same sex characters got to S rank, they just kind of became best friends. In this will a marriage scene be automatically triggered instead of its the compatible character? Because that would be annoying.
I still just want an EU release date 😔
to me, it's more significant that the scene is of enchanting/drugging/'potining' someone to make them find someone sexually attractive that they normally wouldn't. regardless of sexuality, orientation, or even motives, that is sexual assault. then again, i haven't played it yet.
Well it's good they put in gay marriage options, although they sound - extremely- limited to me.
Why put just a single gay man in 1 version, and one lesbian woman in the other, and that's it? Why not drop a few bisexual characters in all 3 versions of the game that you could marry either way, whether you were make or female?
We've come a ways, but there's still a long, long way to go, it seems.
@EmmatheBest Nintendo's on thin ice with the whole gay thing right now, between the Western perception of the "drugging" scene in this game and fixing the gay marriage bug in Tomodachi Life. Deliberately removing gay marriage as an intentional feature from the international release of the games? That would have been the worst PR move they could possibly make.
Localisation changes like this don't bother me. I don't know all the details around the Soleil controversy, but at this point whether it's true or someone misconstrued it, changing it was probably for the best.
The only localisation changes that really irk me are the name changes. I mean really? What was the point in changing the name Harold to Arthur? Or shortening Suzukaze to Kaze? It's just... Ugh.
I really don't like the direction this series is taking...
No, not the gay marriage or relationships, that's okay with me.
I hope Fire Emblem can get back to it's roots of focusing on, you know...tactical battles and strategy!
@AyeHaley Well there are reasons for why it isn't.
@CB85 Because that kind of makes the entire game structure less defined. If you are combining multiple male-male or female-female units, you are limiting the 'child' mechanic and thus completely altering the game experience.
@River3636 Ah, okay. Anyway, thanks for your support! After some discussions I had on here regarding the (absent) gay options in Tomodachi Life and Fire Emblem Fates, it's good to see some "normal" opinions on here.^^
I had to use the Fahrenheit - Celsius converter to see how cold it is where you live. We have 5°F right now where I live and there is no beach I could go to if it were summer. Wanna switch locations?
I'm not sure this statement is helping anything. It won't get anyone to forgive them, and the people that are upset are just going to yell louder now that they know they're paying attention.
@Action51
One other thing to add to that: the pair-up mechanic. In my opinion, it has completely thrown off the balance of the game since it turns your units into walking death machines. To compensate, they've made enemy units stronger, which in turn forces the pair-up mechanic to even stand a chance of victory.
I know, unrelated to the localization topic at hand but I just wanted to share this opinion with everyone.
"Making changes is not unusual when we localize games, and we have indeed made changes in these games. When we localize a game we do so in order to make it appropriate for that particular territory. All our choices were made from that point of view."
Yes, Nintendo, that's EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. Making changes should be unusual, and when you localize a game, it should be in order to recapture in a new language the liveliness, subtlety, and context that gets lost in a 1:1 translation. Focusing on making the game "appropriate" is the wrong point of view, because it assumes as a starting point that the original game must be inappropriate!
This is what the elite are trying to do to the children. Confuse them. Tell them there are more options. Horrible promoting something unnatural. Nothing wrong with it. Just call a spade a spade. Bang bang
@PtM Thanks, but I meant the 'original' as in non-fan-translated. @R-L-A-George seems to be claiming that people are getting the wrong end of the stick because they're relying on dodgy fan-translations and not the original source. He essentially makes the claim that the original source does not feature drugging or 'conversion' of any kind.
No one seems to actually have an original copy of the dialogue however.
@Pokefanmum82 You are better not exposing younger gamers to that kind of thing.
I don't understand why there is even a commotion.
Regardless of content, age or social acceptance I personally believe this kind of content shouldn't be in children's games. Period.
@scamander No problem.
I don't think you want to visit Miami today. It's kind of drizzling. They say it is going to get colder. I guess I kind of sound spoiled when I think 60°F sounds cold compared to 5°, but I am so used to it being 90° F . I think I start to feel cold when it gets like 73°F. I don't know how I would fair with 5°. Why where are you from?
@Ralizah Why? This content shouldn't be in children's games. At the end of the day I support Gay Rights. But the Gay militia don't have to be up in arms about everything.
Uh, so can these same sex couples have children? I mean we all know the answer to that, but exactly how does the game explain it?
Ok, I am sorry but to make it more appropriate? The US recently went though the massive Supreme Court ruling making it so States could not make same sex marriages illegal and such pretty much legalizing it everywhere and acceptable in the United States.
This is nothing more than Nintendo being oblivious to the Western world and making unneeded censoring.
Even more so, not sure about the US but in Canada, In school we were exposed to sexual themes as of grade 2 and I was 7, turning 8 in that grade. By grade 4, so 9-10, we basically learned everything. Here is a game where it really doesn't go into much depth at all on the subject matter that is rated teen and they go, yet again censoring it. Nintendo needs to get with the times.
@liveswired Fire Emblem isn't exactly a children's game. And if kids do play it, I don't see how the presence of same-sex relationships alongside opposite-sex relationships is going to be harmful.
In one hand the inclusion of same-sex marriage is nice.
On the other, I don't see it as too amazing, progressive or whatever considering the male character is a sadist and the female is a stalker (which happens to be this game's blatant Tharja in appearance and personality trait, straight-up). It's sad and kinda disgusting.
@liveswiredmost kids are already exposed to same sex relationships. Kids see them everywhere and why should it matter to anyone if kids are exposed to that. Everyone is different and all kids should know that. My aunt is a lesbian and I've had gay friends.
@GrizzlyArctos I agree with you 100%. When are these holier than thou types, going to wake up and evolve already.
The only young kids I see playing video games are playing Halo or Destiny type games. Do you want your child to blow up a high school or marry some one of the same sex?
I hope one day Fire Emblem will go back to it's roots and not have all of this in it. Cause wow! I feel like Nintendo just dumped it in a jar full of weeaboo nonsense. And now i'm just waiting for the next game to have a loli getting screwed by a some dude or better yet by a tentacle monster.
Few options is the correct answer. Not every person is gay, the majority is straight, so the characters should reflect the reality. But people on internet love to make some fuss from nothing.
@River3636 Wouldn't same-sex marriage be doomed in an evolution chain since they can't reproduce by themselves?
@ikki5 I question both your understanding of the content of this article and your elementary school's judgment.
arrrrrrgh. Can't decide which one to go with. Conquest for the cooler looking, knight motifs. Or Birthright, for the same-sex marriage.
( T-T)
I... I think I'll go with Birthright...
@REALLYFEELINIT We'll I'm sure Nintendo can come up with ways same-sex couples could have kids - there are several different options for that in real life, I cannot imagine a fantasy game with magic, sorcerers and flying horses in it can't incorporate at least some of them, let alone invent a few new ones to boot. I mean honestly.
Brainwashed to accept political correctness. We don't need this trash in games.
@invictus4000 In "Awakening," the only way to get an S rank relationship was through marriage. From my understanding, it's the same way in this game.
@FierceRagnar What makes a "proper Fire Emblem" game? Do you just not like the whole pair-up/marriage system in general?
@hypercoyote
for my post. the first part is about the whole same sex and Nintendo seeming to feel the need to censor or downplay same sex relationships such as they did in this game... The second part... was more in general how anything sexual related, Nintendo tends to downplay it in the west to make it more "appropriate" when really, it doesn't need to be.
With the same sex thing, Nintendo really shouldn't be downplaying any of it to "make it more appropriate" considering how it goes against the path of society. Nintendo is still looking at the west from the past and they need to get with the times. It is good that Nintendo did leave it in there a little... though they still played it down compared to what it was and they need to stop doing that all together, stop with these "baby steps" to test the water and take a look at the west as of today.
@CB85 Just coming in to the thread to say: Babymancy.
Truly Iwata's legacy lives on in your avatar.
I guess I'll have to buy the version that allows yuri
Nice to see Nintendo on the tolerant side of things.
Well, I just hope they don't change much.
I started playing the english fan translation of this, though I think I will only do 1 path. I'll do the other 2 in the official western release. I wonder how many changes I can notice.
@liveswired
1) There is no such thing as a "gay militia." Being a homosexual doesn't induct you into some secretive organization. Stop being paranoid.
2) Fire Emblem isn't a "children's game."
3) Even if it was, what's wrong with children learning about alternate sexual orientations?
No gay conversion? Good. Gay marriage options? Cool.
Fire Emblem is still weeby as hell, with characters being walking stereotypes. But that doesn't mean I don't still enjoy FE: Awakening.
Removed - unconstructive
I am not a supporter of same-sex "marriage,"
How about being a supporter of another human being's happiness?
@cormano Nintendo listens to criticism more than you would think, they normally just don't mention it. Also thank you for just stating your opinion on ssm and not going on some crazy rant about how immoral it is and how you won't buy the game
@Bass_X0 Marriage doesn't equal happiness lol especially looking at divorce rates. Give him some slack atleast he only said marriage and not 'the gay lifestyle".
Bass_X0 (re: #94),
Of course.
Best,
Cormano
Well, the gay lifestyle is usually associated with same sex marriage. Being against one generally means being against the other.
Being British, I never understood why some Americans are so quick to defend a bigot's right to be bigoted and not a homosexual's right to be homosexual. Shouldn't freedom of speech also apply to the victim rather than, or as well as the aggressor's hostilities?
Zombo (re: #95),
I have to disagree with you! Take a look at, for example, the New! Super Mario Bros. games. Each of them are excellent games in the genre, but fans have been complaining from the start about the series' bland style in visuals and music. Now, I am not entirely onboard with these criticisms for several reasons, but you do have to admit that Nintendo has been fantastically deaf to the criticisms. Similar cases can be made for Zelda, Metroid, Mario Party, etc.
Oh, and as a matter of fact, I do have issues with same-sex "marriage" involving morality, though that is not where I would probably start any discussion on the issue (perhaps, instead, start with natural philosophy and political philosophy). I used to support same-sex "marriage," and I'm also not pleb, so I know starting a discussion on the topic in the comments section video-game article would be inane.
Cheers!
Best,
Cormano
I do have issues with same-sex "marriage" involving morality,
Straight people are perfectly capable of participating in morally corrupted perversions. That I am not going to go into here. There is some bad stuff a male and female can do.
Bass_X0 (re: #98),
Mmhmm. So far, I agree with everything you have said, except comment #98, which I confess to not understanding at all. XD
Best,
Cormano
@sWiTcHeRoO I'm actually okay with the lesbian option being like Tharja... I always paired her with the male healer with long hair so I could pretend they were lesbians.
Oh my, it's been a long time since I've seen someone reference "natural philosophy." Flashbacks to my college philosophy courses.
I've read a lot of arguments against same-sex marriage over the years, and I have yet to encounter one that stands up under intellectual scrutiny. Even the arguments presented to the U.S. Supreme Court were exceedingly weak.
As for the "immorality" of it: Concepts like morality (and sin), if they are to have any meaning, must indicate some sort of harm. When someone robs another person, there is a harm done. When someone cheats another person, there is a harm done. (Those are fairly obvious examples - there are more subtle versions of harm than stealing another person's money or hitting them, but they make a point.)
When two men fall in love and decide to form a lifelong commitment to each other, there is no harm done. You cheapen the concept of morality and render it meaningless when you call such relationships immoral.
(Mind you, gay individuals are just as capable as anyone else of committing immoral acts - but there's nothing inherently immoral in a same-sex relationship.)
To use an anecdote: I know two gay couples that have been together for more than 30 years. Collectively, those couples have raised nearly a dozen children, all of who have grown up into wonderful and well-adjusted adults. When I see the way these couples interact with each other, and with their (now adult) children - well, let's just say that there's nothing "immoral" about it. The fruit of their life choices is all good.
Also, just fyi: Putting quotation marks around "marriage" doesn't change the fact that gay couples do, in fact, get married. There is no divine tablet in the sky on which the immutable definition of "marriage" is inscribed - the meaning of the term has been continuously evolving since the beginning of marriage itself, and it will continue to evolve over time.
Best,
Pleb
@Kicked2TheKirb unnatural? Why is it unnatural?
@CB85 Well having a gay guy and a lesbian is a pretty accurate representation of reality. Only 3.8% of adults in America identify as gay/lesbian/bisexual so it's be kind of weird if half, or even a fourth, of the characters were gay. I'm not sure why people insist of shoe horning characters into games for 'diversity.' Why are we putting so much emphasis on what someone is born as, and can't change, instead of the individual and their ideas and personality. That's extremely backwards if you ask me.
On the topic of this article, I couldn't care less whether the characters are gay as long as they're well written characters. It's really annoying that Nintendo think us in the west can't handle a gag drugging scene. Though considering the absolute wreck the games press is in and puritans like Sarkeesian on the scene I can certainly see why they think we're all a bunch of puritans.
Mmhmm. So far, I agree with everything you have said, except comment #98, which I confess to not understanding at all. XD
Okay. To simplify.
Group A isn't offending anyone or hurting anyone.
Group B doesn't like Group A and attacks them verballly, physically or indirectly.
Group C doesn't like Group B's treatment of Group A and tries to get Group B to leave Group A alone.
Group D doesn't like Group C's treatment of Group B and tries to get Group C to leave Group B alone, citing Group B's freedom of speech.
So I say to Group D, why does Group B get their freedom of speech defended and yet Group A should not.
@ikki5 Read the bloody article. They aren't downplaying same sex marriages. You need to get with the times.
@Utena-mobile I'm going with Birthright first for the f/f marriage and then getting Conquest to make a feminine looking male character and pretending he's female
Bass_X0 (re: #106),
Of course, I take issue with your characterization of the sides, but leaving that aside: which speech act is Group A being prohibited from expressing?
Best,
Cormano
I don't think you people understand political correctness... Gay marriage is politically correct now...
If I oppose gay marriage, I'm a bigot and what not...
We have way too much thought police these days
@Danrenfroe2016 you can be aginst anything you want. I'm aginst trump but he still has a right to run for president. Your aginst gay marriage but it still has a right to exist
First of all the "response" was a question dodge on how they decided what they think does, and doesn't need to be changed.
This is basically Nintendo saying they're going continue "localizing" by the "Viewers Are Morons" rule and if you don't like it too damn bad.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ViewersAreMorons
No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.
On top of that, not only are viewers stupid, they are also intolerant of people and things unlike themselves, ignorant, hate change, need to be instantly satisfied, and have the attention span of a goldfish.
I´m honestly tired of these censorship practices disguised as "localizations".
Thinking about jumping ship. Maybe going ps4 PC Masterrace
which speech act is Group A being prohibited from expressing?
Since I used generalisations instead of naming actual groups, the right to be themselves. The only intolerance that should tolerated is intolerance against intolerance.
@Sondheimist You said it, Pleb.
Bass_X0 (re: #114),
That's not a speech act. To be brief, you are definitely misapplying the first amendment of the US when you bring it up. And your last statement still leads to infinite regress of intolerance.
Best,
Cormano
(I haven't responded to Sondheimist because nowhere did he address me?)
@cormano
My Dearest Cormano,
Cheer up once we play these gay characters in Conquest, we can finally call ourselves Bisexuals.
Best,
Pleb
@Angelo-Noir they also have censorship/ localization See street fighter five for more info
@EmmatheBest
You say something was offensive as if that's a good enough reason to avoid it with no further explanation required.
You surely must know that quite a large minority of us reject this idea in its entirety. Being offended is not a bad thing. It's important and good for you.
And media depicting bad things is not in any way the same as those bad things happening in reality.
@faint
That seems to have been done by the developers though. The actual creators of a game changing their own work for whatever reason is completely different than a third party coming along and changing it for them (whilst claiming to somehow be moral authorities on western society).
One of these things is liable to being misused by people with agendas and one isn't.
@Dezzy they changed it do to possible back lash in the states. No diffrence honestly. They are still employes who had been told to or asked to change something
@faint
Backlash? Where are you getting that? It's still got pretty heavily sexualized characters in. Not exactly sure what backlash they'll have avoided.
But self-censorship is still fundamentally different than censorship because a developer only has the power to censor the things they themselves make. A third party authority has the power to do it to everything. Which I would guess is exactly what's happening atm at NoA. I think they've probably got someone in a position of influence who's just decided they're going to remove things they dislike from games. How else do you explain the boob slider in Xenoblade? Removing something optional from a game makes no sense at all.
And the main point of discussion, Soleil's support conversation, was forgotten. I'm cool with same sex marriage being available, and with those characters - despite what some may, they can't make the entire cast bi. Maybe all versions should have the two characters, but that is another stuff. What I'm Happy they removed is the support conversation - under no circumstances spiking someone's drink is acceptable. If you see the dialogue (it IS available online), Soleil drinks the stuff without her consent, and your character Goes scott free afterwards. That stuff should have never in, neither for West or east.
@Dezzy it was their words not mine.
We had love potions when I used to play d&d. They were dangerous things lol....
@Dezzy you do realize Nintendo pretty much owns monolith soft right?
@Aozz This has nothing to do with tomodachi life. There is a character that is by canon attracted to her own gender and in order to romance her the main character gives her a potion that genderflips people in her head. Tomodachi life was making miis of hetrosexual couples LOOK like homosexual couples to allow them to marry.
I'm more excited for future fire emblem games with this info. Sounds like the next game will be full of bi characters!
@faint
What difference does that make? Nintendo isn't just a single conscious entity with 1 mind. The point was that it's a different group of people changing stuff than it is making that same stuff. The fact that they work for the same company is irrelevant. The problem is that there's a group of people who have the power to change a developer's game and in some cases seem to be doing so based on nothing but personal preference.
I would really love a DLC pack that makes all of the characters bi... Or an emulator mod...
@faint Sometimes it is necessary to protect other people from their own stupidity. For example, that's why we have seatbelt laws. Personally, I don't support gay marriage, either. It's okay to be gay just as long as you don't act on those feelings, and that's all I'm going to say on the subject. It's not something that's going to keep me from buying the game.
@Ryu_Niiyama Yeah, I agree that the whole drugging thing is something that shouldn't have been in the original version in the first place. Would it have really been so hard to have Soliel consent to the plan beforehand? That may even be how part of how they're going to localize it.
Or they could just make an Advance wars game and be done with this rigmarole
@BulbasaurusRex so being gay is giving in to stupidity in your opinion? Correct me if I'm wrong.
@faint Well, at least on pc I can reverse censorship or fiddle with the text to have a more faithful translation. I can´t do that on nintendo hardware without homebrewing it and honestly it is becoming less and less worthy of the hassle.
When I bought my 3ds, RPGS were a big part of it. If they´re chopping and slicing them I will take my money to better offerings. That´s all.
Perhaps if more people could judge the morality of their actions by the effects those actions have on the outside world (rather than arbitrarily denouncing something as immoral because they read so in a book), then the world would be a more peaceful, understanding, and happier place.
It's really quite irksome seeing someone simultaneously denounce another human being's right to fall in love with an equally loving partner, and then go on to give a lecture on morality.
Heres an idea , how about not including stupid ass weddings in the first place?! i love the irony that all of this seems like a big deal but then everybody forgets to see that fire emblem is a war game and war isn't nice no matter how colourful and happy you try and make it look and hey nintendo when was war fun? I think they are double standards when it comes to releases.
I mean, if we're going to have marriage and stuff.... why not just make almost everyone an option? Does it REALLY affect the game if I have characters marry the same sex? Especially the minor ones, who can die at any time and you just keep going.
I'm so sick of people scrambling, terrified to add "DON'T WORRY THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING GAY, IM COOL WITH IT GUYS DON'T WORRY!"
It's censored because a lot of people DO think it's wrong, me included. And I'm allowed to say it just like you're allowed to say you're for it. I'm sorry to upset all the PC liberals here but everything in the world isn't okay just because it makes you happy, and the reason things like this exist is because people know this.
Lastly, "it's art" is no excuse to do absolutely anything you want. There is plenty of creative freedom in ten million subjects, you don't need to jump into the few forbidden ones and claim something stupid like "The art wasn't REAL otherwise". Get over it. Some people still have morals.
@DarkKirby Can't really blame Nintendo for think their audience is morons considering that many people consider Awakening hard on anything that's not Lunatic/Lunatic + (even then those modes are just unbalanced pieces of crap), buy and defend the equivalent of physical day one DLC, and buy the crappiest of the crappiest games they put out? I would think the same thing after pulling cheap tactics to make a quick buck.
If "I am right and you are wrong" is the only argument then this isn't even a discussion. Morality is no longer absolutely defined by religion and, in fact, has always been separate and mutable in reality. Games merely reflect the current times.
@MailOrderNinja The potion was not given to make Soleil (I believe that's her name in the NTSC-J version) fall in love with [main character], but to help her cope with her inability to act normally around (cute) girls.
Sheesh, shoujo-ai is a lot more pure and innocent when the Japanese portray it.
@LetsGoRetro I think I'm going to hurl 5 chunks at my Mac after hearing your despicable comments. There is no boundary in Art. It cannot be tamed. It can evoke love, hate, fear, and so many other emotions. It is in all forms of media. Whether you see, hear, or feel it. It's still in this game even if it is censored because it transcends everything.
It's O.K. to have an opinion. It is yours regardless if it sounds like you're a fascist and it is laced with bigotry.
I'm here to tell that kid who has been picked on, bullied, or even thought of suicide, that it is O.K. to be gay and there is nothing wrong with them. IM COOL WITH IT DONT WORRY.( caps are so over rated)
@River3636
You say art has no boundaries, and then go on to accept art being bounded by boundaries through censorship by saying 'Oh, well it's still in the game in Japan.' That's illogical.
There are a lot of hypocrites here (no offense to anyone in particular) who pick and choose what they want censored based on their feelings. It's really disappointing because of the impact on the gaming industry as a whole.
While I personally agree that the spiking of the drink and situation that followed was wrong on many levels, the principle of being for or against censorship is the issue here for me. I disagree with censoring any game, regardless of content, and yes I mean that fully and in every contextual sense, as,like many have written, art has no boundaries, regardless of if it offends someone or not.
Is censorship bad or good? Decide. Don't flip-flop.
@Maxz well said
@Zibene999 I think you have misinterpreted what I stated. I don't accept art being bounded by boundaries through censorship. I also never stated "oh well it's still in the game in Japan". I know that this is a small portion of the game. I also know that there will be boobs a plenty and great game play.
Know that I am absolutely against censorship in any form.
I was just responding to a rather politically charged comment infused with ignorance.
I have never flipped or flopped. Just because I'm still purchasing this game regardless of the content makes me more pragmatic.
There is also the fact that some of my comments are laced with sarcasm because of the nature of the topic because I know some people on this site cannot handle it. So please don't assume.
@LetsGoRetro Not sure if you actually read the article, but the bits seemingly being altered are the ones that involve putting a mind altering powder in a character's drink.
Nintendo's statement officially makes it clear that same-sex marriages DO feature in these games.
Maybe you were speaking generally, but it sounds a bit silly to say "homosexual content gets censored because many people (myself included) find it offensive", under an article with a clarification from Nintendo that such content most certainly IS available in these games.
So it looks like you're either going to have to get used to it, and not expect Nintendo to remove stuff simply because you find it offensive.
Sheesh. I swear people get offended by things way too easily these days. I mean, how sensitive do you have to be to get offended by the OPTION of marrying a character of the same sex? Seriously...
If people could just grow up and let other people get on with their lives, everything would be a lot simpler. Trying to control the love lives of other people is not only control-freaky and creepy, but comes across as desperately insecure and rather feeble. Stop being so over-sensitive. Some people are gay. Get over it.
@letsplay "Brainwashed to accept political correctness. We don't need this trash in games."
I couldn't agree more. This is all pointless and honestly the main reason why they did this was to show "equality" in a sense. I'm so sick of stuff like this.
@andrew20
The option to enable/disable gay marriages from game settings could actually be good idea.
If you are looking for a secular corporation to uphold your religious values, perhaps you might want to look at what you put your faith into. The world is going to behave as the world behaves, and at least for my faith I am called to be not of this world.
There is a simple solution to this, don't purchase games that disagree with your beliefs. However, most will just complain online and then purchase the game anyways. It is for this reason that rarely purchase M rated games. Does that I mean that I miss some things? Yes. But staying consistent to what I believe matters more than missing out on a game that injects adult themes for no practical reason.
So, after reading through the nichegamer translation...
The chain of relationship dialogues picture the process as being fairly innocent. It is certainly not on the same level as "date rape" drugging, and the protagonist's intentions seem benevolent.
However, as shown in the B rank dialogue, Kamui still used an "out-of-nowhere" specialized drug to try to "help" Soleil overcome her "problem", without her initial consent. He did try to do something "good" by drugging her without communicating about it before hand. He did physically, mentally, and psychologically alter her internal chemical balances and perception of the world to achieve the goal of "helping" her. And he did go out of his way to do all of this, not just out of concern for her well-being, but because of the possibility that she might at least see his male form in a positive light, even if no one else's; in other words, not a full "conversion", but a partial "conversion".
And as we all know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It turned out well this time, thankfully, but that's not the only way it could have turned out. This is not quite the same ambiguously immoral situation as something like Xenoblade's Colony 9 side quest where you communicate with someone first, before planning to drug someone else with a single target love potion (that eventually wears off). The drugging act in Fates is much more powerful, and it's method of application is clearly immoral.
I can't say I would inherently agree or disagree with editing this scene, but either way, the scene arguably paints Kamui in a rather bad light. It's not as harmless an act as the dialogue makes it seem. I don't know if that was intentional, but it's not an intelligent or clever use of character development. It's a dangerously risky deus ex machina that can respectably be edited or removed, simply because of the relationship's poor handling of developmental flow.
@LetsGoRetro Let's not get the comment section locked by inciting conflict, please.
@River3636
All right, I did assume you were one of the people saying that, my bad.
Thank you for clarifying.
However, my comment still applies. A lot of people are doing what I said, and in my opinion it's harmful to the future of art in video games.
The entire scenario itself was just plain awkward, weird, and not very clear in the way they were trying to display Kamui. Good intentions or not. I do think it's a good thing they removed it on those points.
But I'll stick with my stance: Censorship should only be applied to questionably legal activities and beyond. The rest is harmful.
@Sondheimist Excellent post and rebuttal to cormano's citation of so-called "natural philosophy" and quotations around "marriage" that were made in an attempt to discredit the validity of same sex marriage.
So basically you'll have a group of specific humans getting one version and another group of specific humans getting another just to fantasize how they want their character to behave.... Okay ...unless their confused on which to get lol...
Who cares all this topic does like all propaganda is take away how GOOD THIS GAME is gonna be...
@Darknyht I feel like some of the stuff you miss out on might be fun stuff. We've just got this one life, friend, as far as we know. We should make it as rich, varied and fulfilling as possible. ☺️
@Maxz do you have an annual news letter I could subscribe to? X
@luke88 Well again, speaking of my own faith and using a paraphrase: "Heaven can be entered only through the narrow gate! The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide enough for all the multitudes who choose its easy way. But the Gateway to Life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it."
I would rather miss out on stuff the world deems entertaining now, than spend eternity regretting my choices. I know it isn't an easy choice nor is it popular, but I believe the prize at the end of the race is worth more than anything else. Besides there are plenty of things out there that are enjoyable and entertaining that doesn't compromise my beliefs.
@Darknyht So in other words, the "Gateway to Life" is like an exclusive club with only a few carefully picked and perhaps even predetermined members, shunning all others?
Doesn't that seem rather... elitist?
As a gay gamer myself, I welcome the option to marry a guy as I wanted to do that in Awakenings. Well done Nintendo for this and I'm just glad that the people who don't 'agree' with it, despite it being nothing to do with them, now have no choice but to co-exist... like in real life. The other option being don't buy the game.. or cut off your nose to spite your face while you're at it. It's not the gay militia/liberals pushing it, it's life, and I'm so glad 99% of the people on here get that.
Nintendo already knew in advance that this game would also be released in the West, thus they didn't have to ad these things in the first place.
Anyway, all this censoring is nonsense. But I'll still buy it, because underneath there must still be a cool game!
@faint OK, you're wrong, because I never implied that. There's nothing wrong with being gay. I implied that getting into gay romantic relationships was the stupid part.
@PlywoodStick When did (s)he say anything about people being picked or predetermined? It's about the choices you make.
@BulbasaurusRex On the surface, that seems to be the case. In reality, though, the subscription is all that matters to most leaders and followers of the Abrahamic faiths.
You can be a wonderful person who saves people's lives, and enriches other people's lives, but if you don't subscribe to the divine club in the end, you will not be "saved". By contrast, even if you've done horrible things in your lifetime, perhaps even killing people, as long as you "repent" by giving your soul over to the divine club, you will be "saved".
I know this, because I've questioned this (in a less prickly way) from a friend of mine who is a lifetime Pentecostal. According to the faith of the Holy Trinity, it doesn't matter what good deeds you do in this lifetime. It only matters that you give your soul over to "The One True Way" in the end.
As far as they're concerned, there's only two choices: be saved or be condemned. That's really no choice at all, though, is it? They believe this is all fate, that the answer is already known by "The Holy Father."
My response to this? It's like Immanuel Kant said in Critique of Pure Reason: "There are only two ways in which we can account for a necessary agreement of experience with the concepts of its objects: either experience makes these concepts possible or these concepts make experience possible."
Those of faith think that the concepts (such as "The Divine Creator") make experiences possible. Personally, I think experiences make the concepts possible- that is the logical approach, and not a defeatist way of thinking like the other way is. What is life, after all, if our experiences turned out to ultimately be a meaningless puppet show?
@PlywoodStick Sorry, but my religion doesn't see it that way.
James 2:17 Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
I'm not going to bible bash, so I'm going to leave it here as we agree to disagree.
I think this is awesome. The chances sound like good ones to me, and I'm happy they left same sex marriage in there. As a non-straight gamer who just went through a breakup, I'm strangely excited to have my character in what will be my favorite 3DS game, marry a dude.
@BulbasaurusRex That passage, and the ones preceding and following, do address the concept that faith without good deeds is dead and worthless. But it does not address those who practice good deeds based on reason instead of faith. Good deeds based on faith are favored, while good deeds based on reason are either equated to faith, or are considered inherently inferior to faith-based good deeds.
I see this happen all the time in other peoples' behavior in my work, and it is commonly spread as gospel. Nevertheless, as long as other people get what they need, it doesn't matter what I think, or how the situation is interpreted. This is just a personal musing on sociology.
@Maxz the thing is Niche Gamer is relying on a native Japanese speaker and reader.
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