Cast your mind back to the console war of the early '90s and one thing springs to mind - Sega vs Nintendo. The titanic struggle between these two Japanese giants dominated the video game industry for the best part of a decade, with the incumbent Nintendo - along with world-famous mascot Mario - being pushed all the way by the upstart Sega and its Sonic the Hedgehog character.
Of course, things are very different these days. Sega no longer makes its own domestic hardware and even works alongside Nintendo on collaborative projects. Shigeru Miyamoto and Sonic creator Yuji Naka may have been friendly rivals at one point, but they are now on much more comfortable terms, with Naka's studio Prope producing content for the 3DS, such as StreetPass games.
However, back in 2001, the pair were perhaps still seen as adversaries - which is why this recently translated interview between the pair is so interesting. It originally appeared in Famitsu magazine in December of that year - a period of great transition within Sega. The company was undergoing restructuring which would ultimately see it become a third-party publisher, but its Dreamcast console was still on store shelves.
In the interview, the famous game designers talk about their first encounter, which happened around the same time that the first Sonic game was revealed:
Miyamoto: We've talked several times before, but I think this is the first time we've had a proper face-to-face discussion like this. I've known all about Naka for a long time, though. (laughs) We first met about 10 years ago, I believe. I think it was right after the first Sonic was released, at a game show?
Naka: I remember it well. You could say it was the very first "near miss" encounter between myself and Miyamoto. I was standing there in the event hall, listening to that famous creator Lord British explaining his new game, Ultima Underworld. Then all of a sudden a voice came from behind me, "Do you find this interesting?" I turned around and it was none other than Miyamoto. That moment was our very first exchange, though I wouldn't exactly call it a conversation. (laughs)
Naka also discusses his immense respect for Miyamoto's talents, which Miyamoto repays in kind:
Naka: Since the beginning, Sega has been saying "we need to beat Nintendo!" But my intention wasn't really to "beat" Nintendo, but to make games that could stand shoulder to shoulder with theirs. If you try to make the exact same thing you'll never win; you've got pursue a different path. That was our thinking when we made Sonic… but of course, when Miyamoto showed me new games like Mario 64, I realized we were lagging behind again! Just when I thought we were on par, he goes and puts out an amazing game like that.
Miyamoto: Well, whether you're leading or trying to play catch up, I think that's ultimately something that the players decide. We're not exactly sitting cross-legged in some zen pose either; we're diligently trying to stay ahead! (laughs) You overtook us in a big way in America, after all.
Naka: But Mario has sold 100 million copies. We can't compete with that!
It's also interesting to note Miyamoto's reaction to seeing Sonic for the first time:
Miyamoto: After we made Mario, a lot of games came out with characters imitating that jump-action platformer system, right? Of all those I think Sonic had a certain uniqueness. "This game has real personality," I thought. "The creators are young and it's a little rough around the edges, but I can tell it was made by people who understand what the joy of games is all about." Although I was pretty young too, back then. (laughs)
Naka also explains that Sega's games - while still incredible products - lack the fine-tuning that makes so many of Nintendo's games so compelling:
Naka: Hmmm….. well, at Sega, as soon as we finished a game, it was kind of like "Alright, we're done! Now let's release it!" We would only spend a scant few weeks on balancing and fine-tuning. Later I looked back on it and really wished we had spent more time on that. Had we been more careful and thoughtful there, we might have made better games, I think. I get the feeling your approach to that, Miyamoto, was different.
Miyamoto: Our thinking about that is the same as Namco's. In their development process, they always spend a lot of time in the final tune-up phase. They're very smart about programming there. So, in our own way, we too take a lot of time with game balancing: it's like, "ok everyone, time for the tune-up!" That thinking derives from a saying we have at Nintendo: "it takes 5 years to build your brand, but only 2 to ruin it."
The pair chat about development and other topics, and end the interview with a touching exchange where Miyamoto compliments Naka's work - who then reveals that he'd love to see Sonic in the Super Smash Bros. series, something which would eventually happen in Brawl:
Miyamoto: If one of Naka's games is successful, he immediately wants to get started on the next project. That kind of work ethic is great. All I wish from our game developers is that they work hard and enjoy their work. That's all. The more good studios we have, the more the industry itself will be invigorated.
There's one other thing I want to say about Naka. If you think of games as fashion, then 10 years from now, what is popular today will be outdated. But if you think of the inherent value and quality of a game—that doesn't change much in 10 years. When a high-quality game is made, it sets a standard, and I think Naka is one of those rare people who can create the standards by which other games are judged.
Naka: That really means a lot to me, to hear you say that.
Miyamoto: Of course, as a creator myself, I don't intend to stop competing with him! If people start thinking "Sega makes better games than Nintendo!" I'll have gotten us into quite a mess! (laughs)
Naka: I'd like to see Sonic in a Smash Bros. game someday. (laughs) Actually, I talked about it at Space World with the director of the last Smash Bros. He said "I wish you'd have said something sooner!" (laughs)
Miyamoto: Well, if Sega is ok with it, we can add him anytime. I like that idea! (laughs)
Check out the full transcription here.
[source shmuplations.com]
Comments 20
And so it happened—Sonic in Smash
It's good to read they had respect for each other back then even as rivals.
Don't think you get that now with other companies much, maybe some.
A great read! Thanks guys!
Now if only Naka would start a Kickstarter for a Sonic spiritual successor. Hey, that's a thing now right? XD
Excellent article, what a great conversation.
Awesome read! As a big Sonic fan, I wish he could recover, but I just don't know anymore
Thanks! Nice read!
Great pickup line from Miyamoto.
@DarthNocturnal That's gotta be a wee dig at Sonic that quote. Mind you they've been ruining that brand for decades by this point...
I think that Shigeru Miyamoto's dismissal of Lord British is the single most interesting and amusing part of this Interview. Like, it's nice to see that Naka and Miyamoto respect and compliment each other - but I've always suspected that a lot of the more revered game designers felt that kind of mutual respect regardless of company ties anyway.
I'm just glad Miyamoto can sum up how much of a talentless hack Garriot is and always has been (and has-been really is the phrase for Garriot in 2015!) with a simple "Do you find this interesting?".
@DarthNocturnal - especially amusing in light of how it took two years and two games, Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) for the Sonic the Hedgehog brand to be ruined in the eyes of the mainstream. Of course, I'm of the opinion that the two best 3D Sonic games are Colours and Generations; and they were released well after those two years, so it's worth remembering even a "ruined" brand can be used to produce gold.
Ahh. Days gone byyy~
Delightful.
@tudsworth Firstly, I'm not sure the comment "Do you find this interesting?" was meant in a negative way, certainly not relating to Ultima Underworld - which, as anyone will tell you, is a fantastic game to which many first-person adventure titles owe a massive debt. I think it was just a way for the conversation to start; an ice-breaker.
Secondly, Garriott is a long way off being talentless. The Ultima series laid down many of the foundations of modern RPGs, and Ultima 7 - in my opinion - is yet to be bettered as an open-world adventure. Garriott is creating a spiritual successor in the form of Shroud of the Avatar, and fans seem to be very happy with it.
To sum up, I think you've been a little harsh there. Did Lord British bully you at school or something?
That was a nice little read. I've enjoyed both Mario and Sonic for years, though Mario has always been the best in my opinion. I will agree that Sonic has been needing a change as of the past several years. I've always wanted that awesome sequel to Adventure 2, but it still hasn't relay happened. The style itself has taken quite a bit of a different direction since about Colors, which honestly was a pretty good game. I think Mario games on the other hand hasn't really had a rough period, at least in my opinion.
So glad to read this. Naka is one of the Designers I continuously respect, and I own both Let's Tap and Ivy the Kiwi? for Wii.
Cool interview
This interview left me smiling.
Sadly, these days are gone.
Naka: I'd like to see Sonic in a Smash Bros. game someday. (laughs) Actually, I talked about it at Space World with the director of the last Smash Bros. He said "I wish you'd have said something sooner!" (laughs)
Miyamoto: Well, if Sega is ok with it, we can add him anytime. I like that idea! (laughs)
Aw. ^_^ This made me smile. Glad it happened.
Huh, to think Sonic could have been in Melee if Naka had asked to get Sonic in it a little sooner...
Nice interview. This line Miyamoto made really stands out to me.
"There's one other thing I want to say about Naka. If you think of games as fashion, then 10 years from now, what is popular today will be outdated. But if you think of the inherent value and quality of a game—that doesn't change much in 10 years. When a high-quality game is made, it sets a standard, and I think Naka is one of those rare people who can create the standards by which other games are judged. "
Kind of explains why certain high quality games are still liked today regardless of the tech they were originally created on. Whereas any game that is just copying trends quickly becomes outdated and forgotten within a couple years and almost certainly in a decade even if it was really hyped before release or one of the biggest selling games of the year.
And now, Sega is of no competition for Nintendo. They're a joke! No wonder Yuji Naka left... he was ashamed of what Sega had become.
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