With Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U being available for quite some time now, one can only imagine the efforts that the competitive scene's partakers will go through to become the very best at Nintendo's latest beat-em-up. It is well-documented that certain characters have received overdue buffs and nerfs — as well as overall changes to the game's physics engine — making the game a different monster to its Brawl and Melee predecessors. Some may describe it as the perfect blend between the two, but regardless, one must adapt to the game's new style and feel to become top of the food chain.
If you're not up to the laborious challenge and want a boost of advice, or simply interested in a pro's take on the game, Juan "Hungrybox" Debiedma (one of the world's top five Super Smash Bros. Melee players) has sat down with Game Informer to discuss the newest instalment to the series.
The first noteworthy part of the interview describes how "Hbox" became so good at the game. He attributes a lot of his success to being so familiar with platformers such as Mario and Kirby, giving him the ability to use spacing effectively, and thus influencing his play style with his main, Jigglypuff. He then goes on to talk about how superior the latest entries are — in his view — to Brawl:
There’s a lot less cheese in the game. Brawl was a lot of cheese. You had Ice Climbers infinite grab, Meta Knight in general. You had characters that were way too crazy. This game, it seems like it’s generally balanced.
He also mentions how "awesome" it is that tripping has been removed, a random and potentially annoying mechanic in Brawl that could critically cost an unfortunate player a match. However, Hbox has his problems with Smash 4 too:
One thing I’m sort of not getting too used to is the edge mechanic where you can’t edge hog people anymore. For those who don’t know, edge hogging is when you grab the edge and the person Up Bs through you. When you grab the edge you have invincibility. In Melee and in Brawl the player in free fall falls down, you grab the edge and they fall to their death. In Smash 4, that’s just absent now. If you’re on the edge and a person is trying to Up B through you, they replace you on the edge, you get popped off with no damage. So that’s definitely Nintendo sort of appealing to casuals, but that takes away a huge aspect of trying to be strategic in that game.
One of the most interesting questions from the interview was when Game Informer asked Hbox who the top tier characters are in Smash 4. He didn't give a direct answer, but did give an insight of who could potentially reign supreme this time round.
In my opinion, early on I think there is no one that is overly broken. I think if one person can discover one very good strategy for a character it will happen, but currently it doesn’t seem to be that way. But if I had to make a prediction I think Duck Hunt Dog is really really good. I think the fact that he can remote control a projectile is incredible. He’s got an incredible amount of range, a really good recovery, just a really really solid character. Rosalina and Luma have the same amount of potential because of the ability of Rosalina and Luma to sort of tag team and do things similar to Ice Climbers, that’s always scary. It’s just way too early to tell apart from those.
While some may feel that Super Smash Bros. Melee will never be topped by any new Smash Bros., Hbox summarised Smash 4 pretty well by comparing two types of player.
For Brawlers it’s a dream, for Melee players it’s either a nightmare or something pretty cool if you give it a chance.
The interview came to a close when Game Informer brought up the subject of Reggie Fils-Aime telling Hbox that he was going to "come back next time and kick your ass" in the Super Smash Bros. 4 Invitational Tournament at E3 2014. Hbox replied by calling Reggie "a coward and a fraud" — in jest of course — and that he'd take him on at any time in any game. Take a look at the video below to see this humorous remark by Reggie, which takes place after the grand final where Hbox uses Kirby (he couldn't play as Jigglypuff due to the full roster not being unlocked).
[source gameinformer.com]
Comments 93
Yay H-box His thoughts are similar to mine, except I might throw bowser in top tier. Plus, I'm maining Jiggs now too (nurse joy hat only though). I'm pretty bad right now though.
My main is Duck Hunt, with Greninja, Dark Pit and Mega Man close tops.
I generally use everyone though Except Falco, I haaaaaate Falco.
"If you’re on the edge and a person is trying to Up B through you, they replace you on the edge, you get popped off with no damage. So that’s definitely Nintendo sort of appealing to casuals, but that takes away a huge aspect of trying to be strategic in that game."
No, that's Nintendo trying to get you to actually chase your opponent off the stage. There is no "strategy" in edgehogging, it's just decreasing the distance you can recover from. I hate that Smash 4's barely been out and people are already deciding that there's absolutely no worth in the new edge mechanics just because they aren't like the older games.
I for one am happy that people now have to take the risk to try and attack or spike someone who's recovering instead of just gimping them by abusing the invincibility frames on grabbing the edge. The only huge issue with Smash 4 (that's noticeable at this point in the meta-game at least) is that it's just way too defense oriented.
Sometimes I think "pros" get to attached to a certain meta in a game (or series) so when some is changed that affects a part of it they claim it is more noob friendly. Sure now you can't be a jerk and stop people from recovering when you didn't knock far enough away, does that make it more noob friendly or does it make matches against higher skilled opponents more interesting?
Competitive Smash players annoy me. I always felt that Smash is primarily a party game.
@AlmightyDerek Why do they annoy you? They take a fun game and put a competitive spin on it. Never understood why people hate on the professional players, the game has ALWAYS been very accessible to everyone even when there was a deeper meta game like in Melee. They aren't affecting you or your enjoyment of the game.
I like the new edge mechanics at any rate, I think it is much more entertaining/rewarding when someone goes off the ledge to try and spike someone. Never was a fan of ledge hogging in the older games, but I do love watching the pros play.
I'm still trying to master Duck Hunt. He's one of my mains... because he's just too funny!
I'm not into the competitive scene, but how is edge hogging strategic? I think it's just cheap.
No wonder i always see people use Rosalina and luma online,it's very annoying and sad people had other mains but changed them for the top tiers cause a melee player said he/she is good.Why is that?
Capt Falcon is my main. I really like to use the heavy characters in 4 player brawl except for Ike. I guess I can play Dr. Mario as well.
@ZBomber I see your point. I guess it's just the fact that they never seem to like anything but Melee. Obviously it doesn't really effect me though so I should probably just ignore it.
I second that the new edge mechanic is way more fun and fair than the previous one.
Preventing your opponent from returning by grabbing the edge is just cheap.
This way, yiou have to ensure your KO, you have to keep them away much more skillfully.
And to @ZBomber I too dont like the overly competetive players. Not because they take these games way more serious, but because of their general attitude. All this "catering towards casuals" as if this is a bad thing really rubs me the wrong way.
Its ofthen the case that everything changed in their disliking is talked down emmediatly, although they should be the people to adept to these changes the easiest.
And to be perfectly honest, all this "tier talk" is highly annoying too. Weve seen it in Mario Kart. As soon as some people talk about some characters being superior, online is swarmed with them.
It sucks the fun out of the game.
And ive seen people own with so called "low tier" characters just because they know exactly what they are doing.
Smash is highly situational. Take Little Mac for instance. Extremely powerfull, fast and his dodge capabilities are great, and yet, it depends on the stage and his opponents if he can use all that potential.
Gaur Plains and hes history. Opponents that can float and his potential crumbles. Everything else, he simply smashes away.
And yet...ive seen people dominate the match with Mac on Gaur Plains with a bunch of floaters.
I'm sorry, but edge hogging is not strategy. It's just stupid. I'm glad it's gone.
I agree with everything @Einherjar says.
@Einherjar You said it perfectly about the top tiers friendo.
@TechnoSyndrome My sendiments exactly
The comments on these artcles are always so ignorant. Maybe people on this site wouldn't think this way if they bothered to improve at the game while they put so much time into it. Also, just because someone can use a low tier character well does not mean tier lists aren't important. Low tier characters usually struggle in competitive play.
Then again, I'm not even sure why some of you get worked up over tier lists. They only really matter for those who compete in tournaments, so it shouldn't matter if you're not one of those people.
I agree with people commenting here. The new edge mechanics aren't "noob friendly", edge hogging is. It doesn't take much skill to grab the edge when someone is trying to recover, forcing them to simply watch themselves die. I mean, I'm still not used to the new mechanics but I don't dismiss anything new as bad, I see this requiring players to be more strategic - it's not over until you actually knock them off the screen, as even the tutorial video in each entry contains.
And I'm glad there doesn't seem to be any character that's so OP they're broken, now I can be whoever I want without someone complaining I'm playing a cheap character.
I'm just glad they nerfed Bowser suicide a bit
I just have a beef with Ike. Ike's final smash is toooo powerful IMO. And how cone it is possible to dodge Kirby's' FS? I work so hard to get the Smash ball and accurately position Kirby, just to see it go to waste.. X(
Edge hogging has always been my most hated mechanic in smash bros. I play competitively, not professionally, and very much welcome the new edge mechanics in Smash 4!
I like much more SSB4 than Melee because it requires more skill than cheap gimmicks now to KO an opponent, not to mention the mechanics are much more technical. L-Cancelling and Wave dashing are not needed.
@shinokami You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
@Storytime7 Melee fanboy detected
@VolcanoFlamesNL you can dodge Ike too, and in fact Kirby has more range, Ike is just faster but not impossible to avoid.
@shinokami I like all the Smash Bros games, but Melee is easily the best from a competitive standpoint. You mentioned skill and how technical the games are, so I was just calling you out for your ignorance. Wavedashing and L-Cancelling provide more options that increase the amount of strategy in the game, and raise the skill cap. 9 times out of 10 my opponent will go for a meteor smash or spike when they get me off stage (and fail), so it's not like Smash 4 isn't without its gimmicky KO methods.
This is all you needed to say -Lz
I'm the second type of Melee player; the one who gave it a chance and liked it.
I thought Brawl was horrible. This one fixes its mistakes. And, yes, it does have some edge over Melee/P:M; there are some really glaring imbalances in the earlier titles, and I know I'm in the minority when I say that removing L-cancelling took away nothing from the strategic depth.
I'll still continue to play P:M as a FORK. A side series, like SF Alpha was to SFII. SSBU is currently the definitive version of the MAIN series. One thing's for sure – With both of those titles having it outmatched in all areas, Melee doesn't have much going for it right now.
Rosalina & Luma's definitely in the group of stronger characters. A favorite Mario character being super good? Sweet.
"So that’s definitely Nintendo sort of appealing to casuals, but that takes away a huge aspect of trying to be strategic in that game."
I disagree. Sure, edge-hogging has gotten me free KOs at times, but when I think about it, it's not as strategic in comparison to the newer mechanic. You'll just have to adapt to it and find ways around it. Understand what works, what doesn't work, and get creative. As a matter of fact, I like it better. From all of the experience I've had, there are two things important to the new mechanic that can really help you out:
1. If they re-grab the ledge without getting hit or stepping on a platform, they won't have any invincibility.
2. You can purposely grab on to the ledge immediately after they do to force them off of it.
With these two things in mind, you won't believe how many KOs I've gotten. Ya just gotta think differently, and see how you can use your options. It is the only way you can tip the scales! Ahaha. Haha. Ah...
@BaffleBlend I think the competitive scene for Melee will be just fine. Melee doesn't have much going for it anymore when played casually, but that's because other games in the series are better suited for that kind of play.
Also, when I use the terms "casual" and "competitive", I'm not trying to imply one is better than the other. Some people tend to think that, so I just wanted to clarify that in this post.
@Storytime7 the fact that you say SSB4 is limited just proves you are a Melee fanboy.
@shinokami I didn't say it was limited. Don't try to use fallacies as your argument.
@Storytime7: No, I really think Project M's got it beat now. It also has balance going for it, unlike Melee where only a tiny fraction of the roster was actually functional. Combine that with the sheer PRICE of Melee now...
@Storytime7 Wavedashing absolutely gives you more options, but L-Canceling does not. There is NEVER a reason not to L-Cancel a move, it's just an extra button press that adds literally nothing to the game. You could just cut all landing animations in Melee in half instead and it wouldn't change a thing about how you play the game.
I love the new edge guarding mechanics because it allows for more aerial combat off stage because you can always guarantee that you can get back on, but you have to watch out for people trying to spike you or head hop you.
@Storytime7: I don't mean to insult yout preferred game. I'm just trying to say that it has competition now.
The edge mechanics are the best in this game! I've always thought that the old ledge mechanics were unfair. Blocking your opponents ledge while hanging on the ledge is wrong.
Off topic, but I hope that I am not the only one who tries to pull out some quotes from the character reveal trailers in everyday talk. Mainly just the Robin trailer!
I've been a big fan of this series since the beginning, but this competitive Melee group gets a little old. Thats all the Smash Bros sub on reddit Is about half the time. Well that and gifs. Anyway, I know everyone is free to have.their own opinion, but I feel a lot of this group is cheating themself out of a good time with this game and Brawl due to stubbornness. It's just a different strategy, not necessarily less strategy
@rayquaza_master Just don't tip the scale!
@Storytime7 Did you seriously just claim that L-cancelling provides more options? You should probably stop calling other people ignorant.
I don't see why some players still cling onto melee as the only smash game worth playing. I follow the pokemon metagame and everytime a new game comes out, new mechanics. Everybody deals with the changes and adapt accordingly. Nobody scrapes their heels into the ground and refuses to play the newest mechanics.
Melee has almost no appeal now, small character roster, hyper complicated mechanics, ugly looking even for GameCube era. It's time to move on.
@rayquaza_master You're not the only one, I use Shulk quotes whenever I'm feeling it.
SSB4 is definitely my favourite Smash game overall. Though Brawl is somehing I still love as that's the first Smash game I was able to consider myself good, while Melee introduced me to the series.
I just play the games and have fun. Y'all can keep the controversy.
an "expert" gamer that use the word "casuals" eh?...go F yourself Juan
I want to see Reggie go against competitive players and school them.
I dont care who's top care tier or low tier i enjoy my game forget these kinda list. Is koo to hear a thoughts on the characters though but i dont try to set myself up for failure. Its almost like you sike yourself out before the match starts knowing that certain characters are top tier. Its funny how people dwell on that or use that as an excuse for losing. I feel like if you know that much on a character you should know what to expect online and who you should be picking online if your going for glory.
Win or Lose its going up ~
Warning: Adult LANGUAGE
i don't think that I'll ever understand the hate for competitive Smash, let me make this clear: Competitive Smash the concept, not the players.
That's like me hating professional baseball because its too serious, they should just play catch like me in the backyard.
The beauty of Smash is that it can be both, don't rag on each other just cause you have a fixed perception on what it should be.
Hahaha, so many bad comments here. Why so much hate? Gotta respect Melee fans today.
Edgehogging is something I really miss from the previous game. SSB is about trying to get your enemy off your space and edgehogging was a part of that. So was longer hitstun, but that was lost already after Melee.
@JasonAnArgoNOT64 Melee has Roy so there's still a perfectly good reason to play!
Omg, they booed winner. Thats disgusting. He worked really hard to get there, he wins, and gets booed, these smash fans... In dota2, ESL ONE, it was in Europe, Chinese team won, instead of booing they chanted one of the players name, there is a big rivalry between Europe and China, but even in Europe everyone supports Chinese teams when they win.
Rofl, smash pros are the only ones that like broken mechanics like the old edge...
@minotaurgamer he comes across a complete tool
Little Mac is my main man! Such an awesome character, hard to master though, I also use Shulk, Sonic and Pac-man alot.
@Tsurii897
That just happens with games that are popular and fun for both casual and hc players.
AS Luffymcduck pointed out, edgehogging being removed takes away an option from edgeguarding that used to be there. Grabbing the ledge wasn't a guaranteed knock out, anyways, but some characters can't really go out as far as the others and would appreciate the option.
The new mechanics have their merits, though, as I definitely like how your invincibility doesn't refresh until you land or get hit, and ledge trumping can lead to some interesting gameplay...but I dunno. It's probably more of a neutral change than a positive or negative one, but I will say it likely contributes to matches on average taking longer unless you set it down to 2 stocks.
These "professional" players are usually annoying to me. They act really entitled. But I enjoy this iteration of smash and I hope it hogs the competitive spotlight.
@Tsurii897 Yup, exactly that.
Another thing was their attitude about the selection of stages that was first introduced. They ban everything with stage hazards in official tournaments, so you had guy screaming "BANNED !" while stages were shown on a Nintendo direct.
Thats basically like saying "Lets play this game professionally, but ban the one factor that makes it unique"
And guess what, they even found a way to complain about Omega Stages... The one thing they were looking for basically.
I love the fighting game scene in general, the passion they have for their hobby is something to look up to.
But its turning into an exclusive elite golf club. Youre either on the top tier or youre "casual" and dont even matter.
If you ask me, thats when the "fun for everyone" part of the game goes to die.
I hate Smash 4's balancing. Everything's just too safe, and airgame is considerably worse than before. Add to that how much they already butchered some good characters with the last patch, and I see myself recommending Brawl with Project M over this easily. It's neither fun nor balanced anymore.
@Einherjar Tiers are more of a capability list. Low tier characters reach their limit earlier or are at a technical disadvantage against more characters than others, while it's reversed for High tiers, but a good player can win with any fighter, since the meta- and mindgame can affect an opponents ability in numerous ways.
@Kaze_Memaryu Exactly. The thing is, most people interpret these tier list as "just play the high tier characters, since the pros told you so" which leads to some really boring online match ups.
@Einherjar To be fair, you get that with any game that has a remotely competitive community and it's not related to Smash Bros. It sucks, but I'm not going to tell people they shouldn't use the best characters if that's what they want- I'm content using Dedede and Ganondorf any day of the week myself.
Also, the whole "THAT STAGE IS BANNED" thing was more of an in joke with the community. I mean yes, most of those stages did end up banned in tournament but that's because they're not conductive for competitive play. But that doesn't mean having a hazard automatically stops the stage from being usable- Halberd is a common counterpick in Brawl tournaments, for example. And if you think players ONLY want to play on Final Destination...that's just wrong.
@TechnoSyndrome
I totally agree. I have about 6 other friends who've all been playing Smash since the N64 and we feel that Wii U Smash has the best play mechanics to date.
People need to admit that Melee was not very balanced and was broken in some ways. A lot of these "professional" Melee players loved exploiting these unbalanced mechanics like wave-dashing and edge-guarding. They're cheap tricks! Taking those out is not an appeal to casuals. It makes people fight your opponent... like you're supposed to do in fighting games.
The fact that these "Melee Pros" don't have a definitive top tier list or even a name a top tier character, speaks volumes about Smash U's balance this time around.
@Turbo857 Tier lists take a long time to compile, so that's more a credit to the number of characters in the game than its balance.
As for the casual vs. pro garbage, both sides have their share of infantile whiners who are insecure about the way they play the game and feel the need to get defensive every time it comes up in conversation. Play what you like, how you like it, with no reservations. Stop telling others how best to enjoy their entertainment.
@rayquaza_master Fancy meeting you here! MONANDO BOYYYYYYYYYYYAH!
@Einherjar
Complains about Omega stages are reasonable, because competive players want other stages than Final Destination (and Battlefield) too. Project M is a good example, there's many different levels where stage hazards have been removed. Stage hazards can be fun for 3-8 multiplayer battles but there should be an option to turn them of and have other competetive stages than FD too.
@justlink same here. I always find it extremely annoying when a bowser player tries to do that.But in the end I usually beat him, then he rage quits because he's unhappy that his strategy failed.
No ledge hogging takes away the cheese.
He just said that it was good they took away cheesing.
-__-
Seriously pro smash players are so immature and annoying and don't deserve being respected in the community. Great skill, terrible personalities.
@luckybreak
I'm sad that every single Pro Smash player you've run into has been annoying. If I play enough, I could become an annoying Pro Smash player too.
So apparently I'm casual because I like the change to the ledge mechanics... you can easily win against a little mac by throwing him off the stage then ledge hog with the previous mechanic of ledge hogging, this can work with some other characters at higher damage, but not to some like R.O.B.. This isn't for casuals at all, competitive players think they know literally everything...
@TheGreatBrawler
When did anyone say that if you like the edgehog change, you become a casual player?
@Einherjar idk, Little Mac is still pretty bad imo; just because someone was able to use him well doesn't mean he is good. I'm pretty bad at smash, but his recovery is so bad that you can easily KO him with any character at under 40% I would say he's like Ike, easier to pick up and master but with fewer options than most other characters (trashy air game). The sheer amount of options available to rosaluma and the dog are why they will most likely be top tier.
Not sure why people are hating on HBox when he literally said one negative about the game. Its understandable that he would dislike it, as he is a jiggs main with much better recovery than other characters.
I definitely have to agree with hbox on Rosalina. I think that her down special will be a huge advantage for anyone going against projectile based characters. I haven't really had a chance to play as duck hunt but from what I can tell, it looks like people who main him could get really good.
@Luffymcduck That pretty much what Juan said
@WaveyChristmas
I personally hated the air dodge from Melee. It slightly moved your position to the left and you're vulnerable on the way down after using it. At least in Brawl and the new ones you're in constant motion when you use it.
Ah well, "to each their own".
@TheGreatBrawler I'm pretty sure Hbox meant that the new edge mechanic helps out casuals. Now even a noob can get back easily. However this doesn't mean the new mechanic is not competitive. For competitives, it means they have to very aggressive off stage when edgeguarding.
What I don't understand, is why everyone is talking these quotes as gospel. These opinions don't represent competitives as a whole. Furthermore, I don't think Hbox has even played Smash 4 that much. I've only seen him go to one 3DS tournament. Also his opinions sound like every other pro's DAY ONE opinion. But by now these thoughts have changed. While Rosalina and Duck Hunt are good, the best two characters as of now are definitely Diddy and Sheik.
HBox <3
@Captain_Toad I have used that one after inhaling helium in front of my friends. This is a good result!
@BaffleBlend I'm not insulted by people who can support their opinions in a calm manner. No worries, man.
@Dr_Corndog No, I misworded what I was trying to say because it was late at night. I meant to only include wavedashing when I mentioned options, but added L-Cancelling to my post for some reason. Of course, I forgot I have to perfectly convey my opinions if I don't want Sm4sh nerds jumping down my throat for even implying Melee is better competitively (not even better overall).
Alright, lets see if I can address most of you here.
1. The changing of the edge-grabbing mechanics is NOT a bad thing - its a new (and welcomed) addition to the game - now people will actually need to have some tactics for killing your opponent instead of relying on cheap edge-hogging that requires no skill. Deal with it, Melee brats.
2. I think we can all agree that the "pro" Melee players are a bit self-entitled when it comes to this series and which of the games is objectively "better". It must be SO awesome to be good at a 13 year-old game.
3. Having been a avid fan of the series since the beginning, I welcome Smash 4 - its great and everyone is having a blast with it. Sure, it has its problems, but what Smash game doesn't? So far, its the LEAST broken of the series and the roster balancing is actively improving/changing with each new patch (something that has NEVER happened in this series).
4. The beauty of the Smash Series is that there are TONS of ways to play the game, competitively and casually ("For Fun. For Glory. Which will YOU pick?").
5. Also, Villager is top tier. Any character that has a projectile is in for Hell. Plus, his air game is legendary.
I have never played a single SSB game ever. Last fighting type game I played was Killer Instinct on N64. Love Nintendo and I usually buy games from them that I may never play, but I know I will never want to play Smash, so this I will skip. Only thing I can say about this game is that it seems to have a massive amount of content. Looks like everyone else will have a blast, so have fun.
Super Smash Bros. 4 is better, hands down. The physics in Melee are seriously outdated to a game that came out less than a month ago, and the ledge grab complaint doesn't even make sense.
Everything @Einherjar has just said, is right on the money.
@Turbo857
Aaaand... you can just dodge out of your opponents combo because of that new mechanic and lot less hitstun. Makes it a lot of fun.
@Jollyjulian
Good points there but about 1 and 2:
1. Why do you keep calling it cheap? You got hit, you're gonna fall, deal with it. It's part of recovery disruption, about controlling your space and getting your opponents out of it. Besides, the hitstun is much shorter and air dodge doesn't have much landing lag so matches just become drawn-out (I don't feel this way in EVERY match but my friends certainly do).
2. What makes it worse for being good in a 13 year old game than in a new game? Melee has more advanced techniques and requires more skill.
Yes, I enjoy SSB4 very much and it's propably in my top10 games list, but for 1vs1, Melee is still better. And I really hope that changes one day.
Tier lists really are just opinions. There isn't any official Nintendo tier list because Nintendo likes everyone to think every fighter stands a chance. While that certainly isn't true at some occasions, that's what the update 1.0.4 was supposed to do: balance out fighters. So if another update like that happens, Tier lists would all change. And, if strategically played, all fighters can win against other fighters. Such as some weaker fighter going against anyone can still win if the other person hasn't mastered their recovery.
@Kasplat No one is hating about him in person, but the attitude of the scene in general. Hes not the only one who brough the edge grab thing up for instance. If they interviewed someone else, the same reactions would have happened.
Thats why i said that i generally adore the professional player scene, but i cant stand their collectove attitude against "the casuals".
As for Mac, just because people can use him well doesnt mean that hes good, thats right. But just because you cant doesnt make him bad either.
Rosalina is a good example of why the meta game is so important. Lets say we put Mac against her. Mac himself is a very close range fighter. Therefore, every Rosalina player know what to do: Extend the range using the Luma shot, do fight him at a safe distance. Macs retort ? Side B. Jump over the Luma shot and hit Rosalina. That way, the Luma misses its target and gets send too far, creating a pocket in which Mac is safe to throw in a couple of punches.
The Side B dodge is Macs strongest answer to pretty much every projectile. If your opponent learns your pattern, blocks your Side B approach go in for the Down B counter.
Even thopugh Rosalina has probably the biggest, most smash effective reach, there are plenty of answers to that.
If you ask me, the game itself is way to situational to call any character flatout good or bad. It all comes down to luring your opponent into thinking in patterns. And the moment he thinks he got you figured out, change your playstyle. Change said patterns.
@Luffymcduck
Well, I'd say ledge grabbing the way it is now, is better. You could hog the ledge, but there is also a situation where when someone hogs the ledge in the older games, they are invulnerable for a short amount of time, so the possibility of recovery goes alot further down, even though it shouldn't necessarily be that way. Not only can you edge override, but you are vulnerable if you decide to hang on a ledge without being hit off, so the new mechanic actually does make alot more sense.
I wouldn't say Melee is a crap game, either, but it really is super outdated by comparison. Wavedashing was always practically a glitch. That's just not how games are intentionally designed, and we're talking improvements from 13 years to make the physics, hit boxes, and controls in general a lot much more accurate.
We wouldn't have SSB4 without Melee, so it deserves alot of credit, but that's about where it ends, because otherwise we might as well prefer Tekken on PS1 over any of the new Tekkens, when so much work has gone into making it substantially better for each entry.
@Luffymcduck
Point #2 was mostly in jest. Calm it.
@SCAR392
Agreed to all
@ Jollyjulian
Haha, ok.
@SCAR392 I won't lie tekken 3 is my favorite.
Haha, ol Reggie, kickin' arse and STILL taking names.
@Ishmokin
That's fine, but if we are talking competitively, then it literally makes more sense to play the newer games. Even Tekken Tag 2, which is the newest Tekken game, has questionable physics. That's why Tekken 7 is being made. I've seen the gameplay for Tekken 7, and I can already tell that the physics have gotten better by just looking at it. That's good news for people who want the most accurate gameplay.
Most of you have totally missed the point of Hungrybox's comment about edge-hogging. You have to think about the options and counter-options that go into recovery and edge-guarding. Grabbing the ledge is a very good option as it gives you invincibility frames and some powerful get-up options, so the fact that your opponent can deny you the ledge keeps it balanced.
In Smash 4 the lack of edge-hogging plays out in a really predictable way; ledge recovery is almost 100% safe and is the go-to method for getting back on the stage. So there is a significant loss of strategy there, it is much more difficult to punish someone off stage because recovery is so safe.
Now to give a brief understanding of why the pro community of smash isn't to fond of the new wii U version not to say I'm a pro but I've gone to a few tournys and proven I'm good enough to small hop wave dash etc. And there you have it the reason we don't like it much is not because of edge guarding but the floaty mechanics the lack of extreme combos that just make you say wow watch westballz play melee and watch how crazy his gameplay is you couldn't perform one morsel of his combos in the new wii U version so to sum it up nicely everything that made a pro at smash a bro is now gone due to lack of wave dashes l cancels everything its just gone my personal opinion is this game shouldnt be featured in any form of competition melee takes 10x the skill and muscle memory.
On top of that ledge guarding may have been cheap but now without it I am almost fearless when off the edge being off the edge is supposed to be scary now I almost feel invincable. All in all not a bad game but not competetive by any means more of a childrens game. Most melee players will agree with me.
But its not a bad game I just feel like melee is king pin for the amount of skill you can acquire not to mention how sick some of those combos are omg.
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