It must become a different game halfway through. I got bored and quit on the last level of world 3, and up until then there was about as much platforming as there was the other aspects Mario 64 brought to the table. There is definitely more side scrolling this time around than in Galaxy, but it's still mostly gimmick-based levels and power-up requiring levels, and whether linear or not, none of this fits within the traditional scheme. I see it as yet another step backwards, but not such a big one. As much as I'd like to see the 3D games become short, map-based games with alternating play and levels all like the secret levels in Sunshine but with retained power-ups, I think they'll always remain very distinct formulas with the same mascot, not that that's a bad thing, just kind of incongruous.
It's obvious I joined this site from VC Reviews, isn't it? Well, I need to get back to my porch. Never know when the whippersnappers might step foot on my lawn; got to be ready.
It must become a different game halfway through. I got bored and quit on the last level of world 3, and up until then there was about as much platforming as there was the other aspects Mario 64 brought to the table. There is definitely more side scrolling this time around than in Galaxy, but it's still mostly gimmick-based levels and power-up requiring levels, and whether linear or not, none of this fits in with the traditional games. I see it as yet another step backwards, but not such a big one.
After having reached World 5, I realized the game revs up the difficulty quite a bit
So I've heard! Not what I was getting at with that statement, but interesting nonetheless. All the difficulty in the game so far has been rooted not in good level design but in history's most annoying camera since Shadow of the Colossus. I can't tell you how many times I died because the damn auto-camera suddenly changed its angle mid-jump. I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Mario 64's camera. At least it didn't have a mind of its own.
To be more literally like the 2D games, Yoshi would have to be treated as more than a power-up, the power-ups would have to be treated as power-ups rather than puzzle pieces, game over would have to mean something, the gimmicky levels would need to go (i.e. riding a marble), alternating co-op play would have to be recognized, and levels would need to be linear get-to-the-finish rather than star-searching free romps.
My fundamental disagreement is that you seem to believe that a game is only true to the classic 2D games if it quite literally adheres to the same gameplay formula. For me, it's a matter of being true to the spirit vs. the letter of the thing; by that I mean that the Galaxy games get to the heart of the wonder and joy I felt when first playing a game like playing Mario 3, exploring a world filled with ingenuity and carefully designed to surprise you with new ideas around every corner. Sticking to the literal classic Mario formula, on the other hand, would be to limit the very spirit of creativity and playfulness that made Mario what it was all along.
That's not to say that I don't like NSMBW (I love it as a multiplayer experience), and I'm happy that Nintendo is also continuing to expand that side of Mario, but it's clear when we discuss Galaxy that you and I don't understand Mario as the same thing at all. Mario 64's extension of the gameplay into 3D is every bit as important a milestone as the first NES games, in my mind. It seems like a peculiar Mario-fundamentalism to demand that the form of the first games is what was important, rather than the childlike playfulness and creativity that really made them something unique.
Twitter is a good place to throw your nonsense. Wii FC: 8378 9716 1696 8633 || "How can mushrooms give you extra life? Get the green ones." -
The "spirit" of it that you describe is extremely vague. People experience wonder and joy and witness ingenuity and surprises in lots of very different games. I don't see how that's enough to say the games are similar. I would expect these are goals for most if not all games Nintendo makes.
It's not fundamentalism either. The kind of game I mentioned hasn't been made. It's not like I'm asking for it to be 2D. I think the side scrolling sections of Galaxy 1 & 2 are decent at best in comparison with the other levels. I don't see the need to force 3D Mario on his side when NSMBW is sitting right next to my Wii waiting to do this better. I'd just like to see a pure platforming game done in 3D. Mirror's Edge sort of does this, but I don't like it for different reasons. When I play the FLUDDless levels of Sunshine, there's no lack of wonder or joy for a player there. Or the Bowser levels in Mario 64. Those were like a playground for me when I was a kid.
And I think there's a misunderstanding: I didn't "demand" anything. I like Galaxy, I like Mario 64. Sunshine and Galaxy 2 I could live without, but they're not terrible. I was just disagreeing with the claim that this latest game somehow captures the essence of the original games in a way that the other 3D Marios haven't. I interpret it literally because to journey into such abstraction as you have makes it completely inarguable. Who are we to say what will cause wonder or joy for anyone else?
Form is always important. Without form, it'd just be an indecipherable mess. Games are defined by their rules and our interaction and pushing against these rules. But just because I like one form over the other doesn't mean I dislike either. These games have their place -- in fact, Mario 64 is the only N64 game I have on VC that I consider worth playing. I just don't see them as the same series.
Edit: Or even if we were to concede the pointless debate over whether it's "true" to the originals, I think there is a lot of potential in a straightforward 3D platformer based more closely on 2D concepts. Mario really nails this in select levels of the 3D games, and I think it's a concept very much worth exploring in depth, like how games such as Super Meat Boy, N, or Jumper distill 2D platforming to its essence, but for 3D platforming -- a genre which has always been shoved under the floor mat of 3D adventure games. Call it New Super Mario 3D, or give it a completely new protagonist, doesn't matter to me. I'd just like to see this happen someday. Maybe it's a terrible idea, we won't ever know if it's not tried.
I certainly don't mean to poop on Mario's 3D adventures, if that's what you're getting.
Oh no, I don't think that your viewpoint is nonsensical or unfounded, I just enjoy drawing the distinction, because I am still amazed by how differently we enjoy these games.
I could get much more specific about the types of fun and creativity that define the games, but then you'd really have a wall of text. But just to take your example: you describe the Bowser levels in N64 as a having a "playground" feel for you. That's a useful way of talking about it, although I would say that those levels are more the joy of an obstacle course, whereas a playground is fundamentally free-roaming, and implies that there are many different kinds of things to interact with in all directions, but no linear goal guiding you. Mario 64 brought the true playground-feel to the series for the first time in its open worlds, each of which is simultaneously like a little garden for you to explore. It also preserved the obstacle-course dynamic in certain levels, often mixing the two.
About the unity or identity of the games apart from the strict format, I'd say that there are many different playful activities that have defined the games for quite some time: exploration, bouncing off platforms or walls, trying to climb higher or reach a point that you can see but can't figure out how to approach, discovering secrets, etc, all unified by running and jumping in a world filled with bizarre contraptions (from simple moving platforms to springs to gravity shifts) that keep changing the dynamics from stage to stage. It's very much like being a kid in a continuously-expanding and reinventing playground, yet one that has a sense of unity through the excellent design and the gradual insertion of new elements (first you'll see something you recognize, like a turtle shell, then see its function shift in a new, unexpected direction).
What keeps Mario games consistent on a formal level is their vocabulary of items and interactions; you know what to expect from turtles, goombas, newer elements like vertical spaces that invite scaling via wall-jumps, question marks, platforms that disappear when you step on them, boos, etc. The fun is that these keep changing or popping up in new contexts to the effect of a continuous mix of familiarity and discovery.
Twitter is a good place to throw your nonsense. Wii FC: 8378 9716 1696 8633 || "How can mushrooms give you extra life? Get the green ones." -
I originally read this as "boobs, etc." True story. Also, fair warning, this post only gets less interesting from there.
Obstacle course would certainly be just as apt a description for my favorite levels, but I also spent a lot of time perfecting acrobatics in those levels and trying to beat them in other ways. Often this was just a race to the finish like the old games, but just as often I'd try to beat the level with as much style as possible, ignoring speed. And in that sense, I've found such courses yield a lot to play with in the interesting abstract spaces they create.
People don't try to get 99 lives in 2D Mario games because they need the lives but because it's fun to goof around in these levels, treating them as playgrounds even when the immediate goal is to treat it more like an obstacle course, testing the constraints of the design. So perhaps what I think of as the spirit of the game could be best described as an obstacle course that compels the player to treat it as a playground as well, to push against its rules and limitations and see what can be done even when this is not the immediate goal.
I like what Edge Magazine had to say about it. So very true. B Plus has rolled up the puzzle / shooter genre and locked it away. (Sorry Cubello, but you're stuck in there with this odious game, take it up with Edge.)
Well, I personally love the game (SMG2). I love how it's throwing something new at you every level, and how on EVERY level, I was saying how awesome something was. Like one level where you're underwater, and it's dark and gloomy, and you're running out of air, and when you get to the surface.... a brilliant shining sun is peaking through the clouds, and I was like "Daaaaaamn".
But that's just one of the many 'awesome' moments from the game. And @Adam's comment on finishing the levels with the most style. You've seen Mario figure skate, right? =P
...Ugh, those beeping sounds the platforms make in Beat Block are stuck in my head. XD "beep beep beep Switch!" lol
Me too! I played quite a bit yesterday, and when I quit I found myself thinking about those damn beeps! LOL.
I'm now 68 stars into the game. I've gotten every star in the first 4 worlds, and am loving this game more than words can say. It really is giving me the same awesome feelings that SM64 did when I was 13.
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