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Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild

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-Juice-

martinskrtel37 wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Benjelo wrote:

Do you remember the part where LINK KILLED GANON... err sealed him... I guess? Yea, that was a pretty major event.

Link kills him, and this isn't a character moment for Link. It's a character moment for Midna. Link has no character development or story of his own in Twilight Princess. Link does things that advance the plot, but he's not actually the plot himself.

This is why people get confused and say things like Link is supposed to be an empty vessel for the player to project themselves into. He's not. He is an empty vessel, but his purpose is to act as a tool to tell stories about Hyrule and its citizens. He's a playable plot device.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I disagree; the fault inherent in Link being boring is that the main character is boring! If they could wrap his character up in the plot with some sort of personality then that would improve basically every Zelda game.

lol you're completely missing the point of Zelda and Nintendo and Adventure games. You are Link. You already have a personality. You are the one playing the game. You are the one involved in the story. You don't need the character representing you to get involved any deeper in the story, the character doesn't need emotions, YOU have emotions. surely you get this by now if you've been playing Zelda for a long time.

Your logic is faulty. I played Batman: Arkham Asylum. I can control Batman, but Batman is Batman. Batman reacts to his world, not me. I'm just progressing him. He says what he thinks, he shows his own emotions. I played Bioshock Infinite. Booker has his own emotions. I control his character, but he has his own emotions and motives. I play Smash Bros. I play as Link. I control Link, but Link is the one yelling, with his own CHARACTERIZED and DISTINCT voice. Link was already a character the moment he began to have an iconic voice and look. You play as the Hero, but you ARE NOT the Hero. Many times in the Zelda games during cutscenes, he has his own reactions. His facial features change to an angry face when Ganondorf or an enemy does something terrible. Specifically before you gain access to the Shadow Temple in OoT, Link runs to defend and fight the evil spirit from the Bottom of the Well. You don't get to control him during this time. He does it himself. While it might be a stretch, you can't just ignore that there are times at in which he has done his own actions.

Link:

1. Has his OWN CHARACTERIZED iconic voice, even if it's just shouting and grunts.

2. Link HAS BEEN SHOWN to express his OWN emotions and dismay during the courses of the 3D games.

3. Link has also been shown to be in control of his own character.

4. Link was also his own character WITH HIS OWN DIALOGUE in Twilight Princess as the Hero's Shade.

A character that's supposed to be an empty shell to represent you has none of these things, instead, they are customizable and usually only appear in RPGs and MMOs, which Zelda games are NOT.

Edited on by -Juice-

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LzWinky

Link should be a girl too (option wise), but I'm sure most would disagree because change is bad.

Edited on by LzWinky

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Spoony_Tech

TingLz wrote:

Link should be a girl too (option wise), but I'm sure most would disagree because change is bad.

I personally think Tingle should be a girl or at least have a love interest...........wait, scratch that last part.

John 8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

MERG said:

If I was only ever able to have Monster Hunter and EO games in the future, I would be a happy man.

I'm memory of @Mr_Trill_281 (rip) 3-25-18

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-Juice-

TingLz wrote:

Link should be a girl too (option wise), but I'm sure most would disagree because change is bad.

Wouldn't it make more sense to make Zelda the main character in a game then? Link is already his own established character, not to mention you'd have more impressive combat changes if you could play as Sheik.

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Sleepingmudkip

I think that Zelda should be a playable character soon. It would be fun to switch between Zelda and Sheik

Playing: Wargroove on Switch and Fire Emblem on GBA

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LzWinky

Tis true. I do like Zelda and Sheik in HW.

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-Juice-

Heck, that would make for some interesting gameplay, as they could add little stealth attacks to the game.

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Blast

Link smiles in Twilight Princess. Link's personality is really vivid in Wind Waker. Link smiles and frowns in Mario Kart 8. The list runs on...
Anybody play Golden Sun? I want Link to be how Isaac was. Silent but still expressive.

I own a Wii U and 3DS. I also own a PS4!

Master of the Hype Train

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hobthebob

Yah, Link has some character, but it's not enough for people to be like "Omg my favorite Link was Zelda 2 Link because he totally told that jerk ganondorf off!" Or "I cant believe they ruined Link in that game, omgwtfbbq!. Its just simpler and safer to focus on the other characters like Tingle, rather than build up a character that ultimately only serves as a somewhat expressive place holder for the player and their feelings.

Yes, it's Link and not you, and there will never be 1 to 1 like in skyrim where you can make your guy look like you, but I think Nintendo struck a balance between blank slate you are the character and story driven long back storied guy who has strong opinions and may or may not appeal to all players. Link is link in that he is the hero of time and he has a bit of himself, but not enough to inject potential controversy into the game's story. Look at metroid and the crapfest that happened with other M because some guy at Nintendo thought it was a good idea to make samus have a personality.

hobthebob

Spoony_Tech

Silence is a virtual!

John 8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

MERG said:

If I was only ever able to have Monster Hunter and EO games in the future, I would be a happy man.

I'm memory of @Mr_Trill_281 (rip) 3-25-18

Switch Friend Code: SW-7353-2587-4117 | 3DS Friend Code: 3050-7580-4390 | Nintendo Network ID: SpoonyTech | Twitter:

LzWinky

BlatantlyHeroic wrote:

Heck, that would make for some interesting gameplay, as they could add little stealth attacks to the game.

Or just have the Sheikah tribe other than Impa be important in some way

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LzWinky

Blast wrote:

Link smiles in Twilight Princess. Link's personality is really vivid in Wind Waker. Link smiles and frowns in Mario Kart 8. The list runs on...
Anybody play Golden Sun? I want Link to be how Isaac was. Silent but still expressive.

...until the second game where he was no longer the main character. But hey! Felix only said one word in the second game

I'll be honest. The silent character idea in Golden Sun was pointless since Felix already spoke and established his character

Edited on by LzWinky

Current games: Everything on Switch

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-Juice-

TingLz wrote:

BlatantlyHeroic wrote:

Heck, that would make for some interesting gameplay, as they could add little stealth attacks to the game.

Or just have the Sheikah tribe other than Impa be important in some way

@TingLz That'd be interesting, and it would be great story wise since we barely know anything about the Sheikah tribe. A lot is just hidden in mystery, and exploring that mystery whether it be dark secrets or hidden history would be an amazing addition.

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Blast

TingLz wrote:

Blast wrote:

Link smiles in Twilight Princess. Link's personality is really vivid in Wind Waker. Link smiles and frowns in Mario Kart 8. The list runs on...
Anybody play Golden Sun? I want Link to be how Isaac was. Silent but still expressive.

...until the second game where he was no longer the main character. But hey! Felix only said one word in the second game

I'll be honest. The silent character idea in Golden Sun was pointless since Felix already spoke and established his character

I'm more referring to the amazing first Golden Sun game.

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Haru17

TingLz wrote:

Link should be a girl too (option wise), but I'm sure most would disagree because change is bad.

Don't forget underlying sexism, that's also a reason plenty of people are against a female protagonist option in Zelda.

martinskrtel37 wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Benjelo wrote:

Do you remember the part where LINK KILLED GANON... err sealed him... I guess? Yea, that was a pretty major event.

Link kills him, and this isn't a character moment for Link. It's a character moment for Midna. Link has no character development or story of his own in Twilight Princess. Link does things that advance the plot, but he's not actually the plot himself.

This is why people get confused and say things like Link is supposed to be an empty vessel for the player to project themselves into. He's not. He is an empty vessel, but his purpose is to act as a tool to tell stories about Hyrule and its citizens. He's a playable plot device.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I disagree; the fault inherent in Link being boring is that the main character is boring! If they could wrap his character up in the plot with some sort of personality then that would improve basically every Zelda game.

lol you're completely missing the point of Zelda and Nintendo and Adventure games. You are Link. You already have a personality. You are the one playing the game. You are the one involved in the story. You don't need the character representing you to get involved any deeper in the story, the character doesn't need emotions, YOU have emotions. surely you get this by now if you've been playing Zelda for a long time.

I'm not missing the point of anything. I just don't like the concept of projecting my ego onto an otherwise boring character. And I'm fair-minded enough to evaluate the 3D games' attempt at that kind of narrative. Link not talking or having little character development didn't add anything to the story for me.

I can't rationally see it as anything other than an antiquated practice that was borne out of the lack of writing / voice acting resources and/or money. Especially since Bioware games have done a much better version of choice and protagonist personalization in games, and they do that with bucketloads of VO. So, come on; tell me why I'm wrong. Tell me, specifically, what Link being written as a body pillow added to the game for you and why it's more than just a case of dev laziness or a lack of ambition.

Edited on by Haru17

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Octane

Haru17 wrote:

TingLz wrote:

Link should be a girl too (option wise), but I'm sure most would disagree because change is bad.

Don't forget underlying sexism, that's also a reason plenty of people are against a female protagonist option in Zelda.

I think you should be a little more careful before randomly insulting people.

The reason why I'm against a female protagonist option in Zelda is the exact same as to why I'm against a male protagonist option in Metroid and Bayonetta. There's no sexism involved.

Octane

CaviarMeths

Haru17 wrote:

I disagree; the fault inherent in Link being boring is that the main character is boring! If they could wrap his character up in the plot with some sort of personality then that would improve basically every Zelda game.

I respect that, but I'm not so sure myself. I think it would drastically change the focus of a Zelda game, and not inherently in a good way. I know that this entry is supposed to be all about shaking up conventions, but I think there are a few key aspects that deserve to be preserved, one being the focus of the storytelling. Shifting the focus, or worse yet, unfocusing, would be a disservice to the heart and spirit of the series, in my opinion.

What I would enjoy is if Aonuma made us learn about Link and his journey in subtle ways. Body language, facial expressions, things like that. We got a lot of that with Samus in Metroid Prime and I think it was a fantastic style of characterization. I would argue that it would be even more of a challenge for Aonuma to flesh out Link as a character in that way, rather than just write lines of dialogue for him and equip him with a backstory.

BlatantlyHeroic wrote:

You're very right, and in most cases its' considered poor writing to have the protagonist be bland like Link is. I mean, look at Godzilla (2014), Joe is one of the most interesting characters, but instead the writers made the protagonist be a bland and almost emotionless soldier guy who's disrespectful to his own father, and honestly Ford has no character development what-so-ever. The movie would have been more enjoyable story-wise if Joe or Serizawa had the lead part, as their characters have more depth and emotion to them.

The key difference here is that Godzilla tried to be a story about Ford and Ford was a bad character. Zelda games don't try to be about Link.

martinskrtel37 wrote:

You are Link.

Untitled

Edited on by CaviarMeths

So Anakin kneels before Monster Mash and pledges his loyalty to the graveyard smash.

Haru17

Octane wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

TingLz wrote:

Link should be a girl too (option wise), but I'm sure most would disagree because change is bad.

Don't forget underlying sexism, that's also a reason plenty of people are against a female protagonist option in Zelda.

I think you should be a little more careful before randomly insulting people.

The reason why I'm against a female protagonist option in Zelda is the exact same as to why I'm against a male protagonist option in Metroid and Bayonetta. There's no sexism involved.

I think you should be a little more careful about misreading and randomly personalizing things. I said sexism was 'a reason' why 'plenty of people' are opposed to Zelda getting a female protagonist. As TingLz pointed out closed-mindedness is also one of the reasons people are fearful or dismissive of a female protagonist in Zelda. The later is the reason I would attribute to you, based on what you've said.

CaviarMeths wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

I disagree; the fault inherent in Link being boring is that the main character is boring! If they could wrap his character up in the plot with some sort of personality then that would improve basically every Zelda game.

I respect that, but I'm not so sure myself. I think it would drastically change the focus of a Zelda game, and not inherently in a good way. I know that this entry is supposed to be all about shaking up conventions, but I think there are a few key aspects that deserve to be preserved, one being the focus of the storytelling. Shifting the focus, or worse yet, unfocusing, would be a disservice to the heart and spirit of the series, in my opinion.

What I would enjoy is if Aonuma made us learn about Link and his journey in subtle ways. Body language, facial expressions, things like that. We got a lot of that with Samus in Metroid Prime and I think it was a fantastic style of characterization. I would argue that it would be even more of a challenge for Aonuma to flesh out Link as a character in that way, rather than just write lines of dialogue for him and equip him with a backstory.

Trying to retrofit past Zelda's to be character dramas would be clunky, to be sure. Narrative, like gameplay, needs to be designed from the ground up: while making a new game.

I would like the narrative focus of ZU to be on the plot, not necessarily Link's character. Ideally, though, they could wrap Link's character up in the plot via personal relationship with the antagonist or some sort of parallel arc.

I like the ideal of conveying meaning via small nuances, but, from a storytelling perspective being confined to only nonverbal storytelling is not so much limiting as it is crippling. Just look at Link's animations in the Wind Waker; they're expressive, sure, but you only get emotions from them, nothing explicit.

It's like acoustic music in that way; without lyrics music can only convey vague emotions.

Just think of how you could tell Samus', admittedly simple, backstory via animation and without dialogue (either written or spoken). You couldn't do it entirely via animation. You'd have to create an entire level painstakingly designed to tell this narrative nonverbally. And when you're making 'the next Metroid game' that effort could be better spent moving forward.

As well as all the narrative techniques games can learn from video-based mediums and acting in general I'd like games like Zelda and Metroid Prime to try narrative through monologue. Hearing Link / Samus' thoughts while running through a decrepit dungeon could be really cool if done right. It'd just be all about interesting writing and smart dialogue.

Edited on by Haru17

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Octane

Haru17 wrote:

Octane wrote:

Haru17 wrote:

TingLz wrote:

Link should be a girl too (option wise), but I'm sure most would disagree because change is bad.

Don't forget underlying sexism, that's also a reason plenty of people are against a female protagonist option in Zelda.

I think you should be a little more careful before randomly insulting people.

The reason why I'm against a female protagonist option in Zelda is the exact same as to why I'm against a male protagonist option in Metroid and Bayonetta. There's no sexism involved.

I think you should be a little more careful about misreading and randomly personalizing things. I said sexism was 'a reason' why 'plenty of people' are opposed to Zelda getting a female protagonist. As TingLz pointed out closed-mindedness is also one of the reasons people are fearful or dismissive of a female protagonist in Zelda. The later is the reason I would attribute to you, based on what you've said.

Then I guess I'm close-minded and fearful or dismissive of a male protagonist in Metroid as well. Thank you for your flawless reasoning.

Octane

TeeJay

I actually wouldn't mind seeing an option to play as female Link, on the condition that it changes nothing other than his appearance and voice. Reactions, facial expressions and character interactions should remain almost exactly the same. If I recall correctly Nintendo actually considered making Link female in one of their games at one point. The concept art looked great, iirc. She looked exactly like Link, but female. That's how I would want it done.

Edited on by TeeJay

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