Topic: Super Mario Maker - OT

What REALLY blows my mind is the first person who played my Super Shell Shuffle level didn't beat it. You literally just kick the turtle shell at the beginning and follow it as it winds around a maze. I think they tried 7 times then gave up.

Super Mario Maker seems to have taught me that the average Mario player is not very good. I wonder how many people have problems with official Nintendo levels... No wonder Nintendo insists on stuff like Super Guides; apparently some people really need it...

@Ding-Dong: Those courses aren't getting cleared because they are costing people too many lives on 100 Mario Challenge. Because of you lose so many lives to trolling, you have can't spend more than a few on any one course even if you like it. So people might get really far but if they die a few times they will just skip before losing another life. It's how you get through Expert and it's unfortunate because I've skipped lots of courses that I really wanted to clear. It would be much better if they let us filter out trolling courses but they probably never will. But that is probably why your courses are rated as so difficult. It's not like a normal Mario game where you can go grab infinite lives and come back.

@DreamyViridi: That's part of the issue but it's not so much the case with people who are playing Expert 100 Mario Challenge I don't think

@AdamLikesNintend: Yeah you are right, for the 100 Mario Challenge, nobody is going to sit there and waste all of their lives on one level. I know I'll go back and play levels outside of the 100 Mario Challenge. I'll see who played my levels and go check out their courses, or if I play a course I liked during the 100 Mario Challenge I'll go check out their other levels. Then sometimes I'll start playing suggested courses that scroll by on the bottom. I have no idea how many people actually bother to do that since you don't unlock anything for playing levels outside of the challenge mode.

I actually stopped playing Expert altogether because of the sheer number of terrible levels.

@DreamyViridi: I actually created my level "You had one job" as an experiment to see how skilled the average player was after seeing that people were dying at really simple areas in my levels. It's only one screen in length and all it consists of is one large gap with a fast cannon that fires straight down in the middle. You have to jump and bounce off the cannonball to grab the flagpole. 8 out of 14 people have completed it so far. I was actually expecting to see a worse completion rate.

@Ding-Dong: I think a lot of people do actually do that but not people like me who want all of the costumes. I think @99mushrooms mostly plays like that. Some people have VERY popular super expert courses, such as @J-Bl00d, because they reach the right audience and get a fan base. Of course they are also top notch designers so that's still important but there is an audience for super expert courses to be sure. The be frank, I'm surprised anyone cleared You Had One Job because it's not really a level and when I see stuff like that I just skip it because it doesn't look fun at all to me. The challenge doesn't matter... I'm not interested in doing one highly technical thing and calling it a course. The problem with Super Shell Shuffle may be that some people will never get the concept no matter how obvious it is. But there's also a lot of opportunity to get hit by the shell or fall in a hole so there was probably some of that too. I actually died a couple of times because I jumped in front of the shell. There's not much to do in that course though honestly. I suggest trying to make it more unique and come up with more for the player to actually do. Remember, people won't clear a medium course if they don't like it anyway.

I think the number one mistake people make when creating is that they forget that lives are really important in 100 Mario Challenge and they don't realize that punishing every mistake with death is really frustrating for that reason. I realize some people are really into that but if you don't promote those courses yourself, you aren't going to get much love because 100 Mario Challenge players do not appreciate that. I think only a very relatively small percentage of players actually enjoy dying and starting over numerous times... most have no interest in that. Otherwise we never would have needed checkpoints. I see a lot of great courses that don't have many stars and I think it is mostly for this reason. Of course more people would understand this if more people played 100 Mario Challenge and more people would play it if there was better rewards for doing so and if Nintendo did more meaningful curating. But time and again I see people trying to claim that their courses aren't as difficult as the system says they are. Well, when you have limited lives to get through Expert, yes, those courses ARE as difficult as it says. Just my thoughts.

I hate to say it, but I agree. When making levels, I try to always have a lot of ways for people to catch themselves and try again without losing a life, and yet, a lot of my levels are still under the "expert" category. I always have my brother test out my levels before I upload them, (and I don't let him see the level beforehand, so he doesn't know what is coming), so I know that they're not insanely difficult.

Some people here have played my levels, and I've heard pretty much positive feedback from everyone. I guess I'm wondering from everyone who has played my levels... are they too hard?

I'm kinda out of Mario Maker right now, but I often check on my star count and Miiverse comments for my levels. The comments for my levels are usually 50/50; half the people love it, and half the people hate it... so I'm just confused if I should make my future levels easier or harder. Thanks in advance for anyone who responds!

Also, does anyone else find it funny that if someone comments on your level, and say that they didn't like it, they still end up giving you a star because every time someone comments on a level, a star is automatically given? XD

You can actually avoid this by posting directly with Miiverse and not with the ingame comment button.

@Blue_Blur: Some of your levels are challenging but I don't think any of them are too hard. I just think some Mario Maker players give up too easily at times, which is justifiable for the levels that are just enemy spam or badly designed, but not for the legitimate levels.

I noticed that too but those comments won't show up in the level so they will barely be seen by comparison.

Those courses are still part of the problem though because they snatch up lives when you're playing expert 100 mario challenge so you have to be extra stingy with them on the good challenging levels

@Blue_Blur: I don't think it's about difficulty. Sure, there are people out there who will get frustrated about your level being too difficult, but there will always be those people (at least there will be for a long time). I'm going to make up two terms here and say a good level comes down to two major points, style and flow.

Style is entirely subjective. Everyone has their own unique style, and players enjoy levels which cater to styles they like. Some people like bare-bones levels that focus on the gameplay, while others like pretty levels that are nice to look at, and still others like straightaway levels, lots of bullet bills, or kaizo style, etc. You cannot please all crowds, but there are styles that will appeal to more crowds than others. (For example, mimicking the style of official Nintendo levels from older games may have a wide appeal)

Flow is a bit more intricate. Flow is basically ease of direction in a level. In a level with good flow, players are always progressing, and when they're not, they know what they need to progress (e.g. I need a spring to get up here). The more flow your level has, the more people should, in a normal case like it. But there's an issue: flow can cut into style. I can best illustrate this with an example: Say you have a level with a particularly difficult segment where you have to make a difficult set of jumps while dodging enemies, and you have to take a damage boost in the middle of it (meaning you have to be Super Mario as well) all without a second chance if you miss. There's a good chance a lot of people are going to get stuck at this segment not only because they can't do it, but because they don't know how to do it. This is going to give your level a serious cut to it's flow. But what happens if you want a difficult level to begin with? You have several options, but ultimately you have to decide whether to keep the segment in, keeping your style, or remove/make it easier, hurting your style.

(TL;DR) And so, in my opinion, the struggle of making a good level in Mario Maker is all about having the maximum flow whilst maintaining the level's unique style. Emphasis should be on where your levels can improve on flow, not on how difficult it is.

I could go through some of my strategies for increasing flow in a level, but this post is already too long as it is, and some people might disagree with what I'm saying and I want them to say what they want to before I write anything else.

@AdamLikesNintend: True; but not every play comes from luck of the draw 100 Mario Challenge and skipping levels on the fly isn't wise since if you decide skip one, you may come across several others that are worst. You should be ready to burn a couple lives and at least try if the level's being fair and some players don't even do that!

And look at this!

@DreamyViridi: My favorite thing about that is you can delete his post too, keeping the star as well! XD (At least I believe you keep the star)

@DreamyViridi: @Blue_Blur @MasterWario
Yeah, I find it difficult to believe that all my courses are hard, since they're getting far less clears than they are supposed to be getting. The average Mario player is definitely not good Mario game (which is so baffling...).
Yeah, I love the fact that everyone has their own design philosophies and concepts... but we do have to be careful so that we don't cut into the flow (as MasterWario explained) of the course. I think I have a problem of putting too many traps (really, I see them as the optimal amount!!!) in my courses; and to add to that, I really can't find the fine line between too little enemies and too much enemies. I'm trying to determine whether my courses even need enemies in the first place... I guess what I'm trying to say is that trying to cater for the new player is kind if difficult when you have your design style put in place. It's really complicated!
Say, have you guys played my Escort! Series? I'd like more feedback with those stages. You can bookmark them with this link: https://supermariomakerbookmark.nintendo.net/profile/VolcanoF...
Please don't play the original Escort the Flying Block! stage, as you'll definitely struggle with it. Try playing the updated version first; Ver. 1.1. I've been meaning to delete the original, anyway.
I just noticed that the Version 1.EZ (stands for the easier version of the original stage) has a Super Expert rating. Wut. Just no.

@MasterWario Ah, I'm very sorry... I'm currently working on an updated version of the course, but I've seen you've already played it. Can you wait for a bit? It's currently in the final stages and it's going to be updated soon!

@Vee_Flames: I've been procrastinating a little too much today so it's high tide I began some of this work, but if you'd like I can tell you what I noticed so far.

EDIT: As in, I'm busy right now so I'll try the latest version later.

@MasterWario: Oh gosh, I hope I didn't make you wait! I had to attend to the laundry. Here's the code to Ver. 1.3: 3CBB-0000-0187-1EC9 when you're ready (and anyone else is, in fact) to play it.
Bookmark link: https://supermariomakerbookmark.nintendo.net/courses/3CB8-000...

@AdamLikesNintend: I almost didn't upload "You had one job" to avoid being associated with crappy levels. It will be the first to go if I reach the upload limit. My best ones are Bomb Toss Blues, Fortress of Trials, and Land of the Lost. I spent the most time on Land of the Lost probably. I even put in a boss fight of sorts where you have to avoid Bowser until he stomps through the blocks over a pit. Cannonball Climb is a bit ridiculous with some of the precision timing you need for certain parts. It's too unforgiving and since I'm not famous for making hard levels like some streamers/speedrunners most people probably won't bother to give it a serious try. Certainly not in the 100 Mario Challenge that's for sure. Super Shell Shuffle is pretty mediocre in its current form. That's one I'll probably redo. I'll keep the theme of bouncing shells around to progress but make more to actually do. The only interactive part in it currently is activating the elevator platform to carry the shell.

I hope more people try Land of the Lost. I think it turned out well though there are some areas that might be considered too difficult for the 100 Mario Challenge. It's certainly not a level I slapped together quickly. If that one ends up deleted without being able to re-upload I'll be bummed out.

Very rarely am I ever blown away by a level. But I just completed a level by Daniel Salgado (Cloudy) which was absolutely AMAZING! it's an extremely large level with puzzles and challenges galore. Definitely a TON of thought was put into this level. In my opinion it had a perfect recipe for a great level; it was aesthetically eye pleasing and challenges both skill and mind. When I said this level was big, I mean you will need all 500sec to complete this massive gauntlet. Here's a preview and bookmark for those who are interested

Bookmark:
https://supermariomakerbookmark.nintendo.net/courses/B43B-000...