Topic: Super Mario Maker - OT

@Chandlero: Oh that's right! I forgot that was you! Please let me know if you ever record any more of mine! It's very helpful seeing how other people play them. I actually didn't know the spin jump destroys the goombas in SMW until I watched your video!

@mrichston: That's great information, thank you!

Uploaded a new level !

@AdamLikesNintend: I played one of your levels as you can see here. The level was very long and very funny. First I was very confused which way to go. I would change some things since the many doors and pipes are not really needed and the boss fight at the end is not needed either. But the important thing is: I had fun playing the level

The worst thing about this game is, people give up on a course at the slightest hint of a challenge. -_-

I designed a course (my first try actually) that follows about 98% of all the Do's and Don't's of good course design, but it seems no one wants to play a course if they can't beat it in less than 3 attempts.

It's tough, sure, but it's also straight forward, and actually more forgiving than it might first seem.

If anybody wants to give it a shot, here's the ID: (EDIT: The course is under renovations. Updated course coming soon.) "Race It_Catch It_Use It_Lose It!"

A few tips: The title is VERY literal; prepare to dash at the very beginning; if you mess up the first part, there's still a way to move on; there's also an alternate ending.

I play-tested it extensively, so everything works exactly how I designed it to.

That might be often true but that is not the problem with your level. People give up on your level because they have to hold Dash+Right and Dash+Left for 40 seconds without a single challenge. The level could be really funny but I don't feel like waiting almost a minute before the level finally starts. And then it starts with a really tough challenge since you have to time very precisely. In the end you have to retry several times and every time you have to wait 40 seconds. That is boring for the player and frustrating of course. After this section your level could be really great but nobody will see it.
So my tip for you: Reduce the waiting time in the beginning and people will clear your level.

@Chandlero: Thank you! I really appreciate being able to see that! All of my Watch For Shooting Stars courses are intentionally overly excessive. They all came from my very first creation in which I added everything in as I unlocked it. Originally the idea was to have everything in cages, hence all of the various little sections to run through. The levels are also a showcase of sorts because they contain nearly everything that can be placed as well as features that are unique to each style. Their length is a big problem for people so that's why I've made them all (except for the NSMB one) considerably easier than they were. You probably went through it much quicker than most people will. It was really awesome to see how you found your way through it.

I'll make sure to play through some of your courses today. I don't capture though.

That is very true. One thing I sometimes forget is that there are a lot of small children who own this game, the kind who wouldn't get past world 3 on a regular Mario game in part because they don't have the attention span to attempt anything multiple times. The other factor of course is people just wanting to get costumes quickly and not really caring about checking out good courses.

However, I also generally skip anything that requires you to know to instantly dash at the very beginning. If that comes up on 100-Mario challenge and I lose a life because I didn't already know what to do or have time to figure it out, then I will definitely skip the course without hesitation. I will not attempt it a second time because I find that annoying personally.

I've turned down the difficulty quite a bit on nearly all of my courses because I notice a HUGE difference in how much they get played based on the clear rate. Once your course is relegated to Expert 100-Mario Challenge, you can expect it to get played about 1/10 as much as your courses that are in Normal 100-Mario Challenge. People in this forum post a ton of amazing courses that barely have any plays because they offer a decent challenge. When playing through some of the courses by my favorited people, I was the first to clear a lot of them and they only took like 4-5 tries and were very fun. So yeah, people are giving up after 3 it seems.

It's designed that way for a reason. The first pass previews the course, giving you an idea about what's ahead, then by the second pass you've realized what's going on, and are more prepared for what's about to happen. It's supposed to "lull" you, so when the turn happens, you might not be paying attention. And I wanted a sharp contrast between the beginning of the level, and the end; with a ramp-up in between. I want people who are patient (and skilled enough) to be "rewarded" for completing the level.

Thanks for the feedback though.

Try out my level: Chasing Platform Perfection 0E6A-0000-010D-50D3

Yeah, I'd rather have a level I'm proud of, than a level that gets "easy" stars.

And the "insta-dash" at the beginning is just to line up the timing perfectly. HOWEVER, you can still wait for the cannon to shoot again, OR, find one of the alternate routs. If you can get past the first part, there's a nice checkpoint flag to reward you.

@FattyWhale_42: Well it's not one or the other. You can make courses you're proud of that get stars. And if you want to keep uploading more courses, you're going to have to.

I played Race It_Catch It_Use It_Lose It! which I should've done before chiming in probably. Honestly I would agree with Chandlero. I did not enjoy the beginning and, even though I dashed right away, I did not get the helmet so I had to repeat the beginning. After a few times I was able to line it up right and get the helmet and then I still hit the thwomp from the side and took damage so the other thwomps killed me before I reached the checkpoint so then I had to begin again. Previewing the course about 6 times got too old too fast for me honestly. I think you have some really cool ideas going on but the difficulty of getting the helmet and making it past the first thwomps makes the beginning of the course a bit hard to justify so I can see why people would skip having to sit through that again and again. I really hope you don't feel like I'm just trashing your course, I appreciate anyone who puts the level of care into their design that you do. I starred it because I genuinely believe that you did an excellent job of designing the course and I want to clear it. I also favorited you because I'm interested in seeing what else you come up with. I just hope this helps you understand why it gets skipped so much.

To be totally frank, I can't remember ever seeing a course before that has so many plays and a 0% clear rate. Part of me wants to clear it just so I can change that. That's definitely something I think you should consider though. It's objectively too difficult for the SMM community at large, even people playing Expert 100-Mario challenge. Honestly it's not a matter of creating courses that get easy stars so much as creating courses that people WANT to finish.

Do you have people who are not as good at Mario as you play test your courses? That has a made a world of difference for me.

The level really has some nice ideas and feels like a good themed stage. However, the important thing that I learnt from creating courses and discussions here in the forum is the following:

Your design, your ideas, your composition and the flow of the level doesn't matter when the creator plays the level. The creator is the worst test player. Your design and everything only works when a new player sees and recognises the things you want him to see and gets the feeling you want him to have.

For your level: I really got your idea but you overdid it. For lulling the player you don't need 40 seconds. That's simply too much. Bad players will fail after the 40 seconds and good players will get bored trying the beginning for the third time. Just change the beginning and look what happens

I strongly agree! The creator is the worst person to test the course. Courses are way better when you have people at a variety of skill level and Mario knowledge try them out. The way other people play my courses is almost never the way I intended and I often cannot predict how other people will approach them no matter how hard I try. Most people who own SMM have not been playing Mario their whole lives like I have and I cannot even think like a newbie anymore. Finding people on here to play your course and put it in YouTube is really helpful too.

Hey, no worries. I don't feel like you're trashing it at all; and like I said, I appreciate the feedback.

And I get that the first part is a little "boring" (when I was testing it, I played it hundreds of times), but that's why when you finally reach the checkpoint, it feels like a nice reward — if it was fun at the beginning, it would lessen the joy of knowing you didn't have to do it again! xD

Also, like I mentioned earlier, there are 2 paths you can take if you miss the helmet — one is an alternate ending, and the other gives you another way past the thwomps.

@Chandlero: I considered making it shorter from the beginning, but I never could think of a way that wouldn't drastically alter the entire course.

@FattyWhale_42: Don't forget: This is just my opinion. Overall it is your level! Just because I found the beginning boring, doesn't mean everybody does. I just want to help you since you was unhappy that nobody cleared your course. I don't think you have to alter the entire course. Often small changes make a big impact on the entire feeling of the level.

By the way: I didn't find the alternative routes since I was so focused on getting the helmet that I didn't look for alternatives.

That's going to be a tough concept for a lot of people... a course that is intentionally not fun in the beginning. It feels a little more like you're being punished for playing the course rather than rewarded for sticking with it. First impressions are everything and fun is what Mario is all about.

I'll try to find the alternate routes and let you know how it goes.

Why only one upload btw?

I'll try to see if I can come up with a way to make the start more "fun", but I've already almost used all my available items.

It's my first attempt at making a course so far.

Update: Well, I've taken the great feedback I got, and came up with something better. It's about as much as I can do with what I still had available to use, so hopefully I've changed it enough that people will be encouraged to try to make it to the end.

ID: F677-0000-010F-52CF

They should add a new ladder-style play-mode. Rank players by their skill. Start at 2500 or something and work up to rank 1.
Only use levels with a certain age to them or similar (say 10 days old and X attempts).
Have those at rank 2500 playing levels with super high clear percentages.
Rank 1's can play panga levels or equivalent. =)

Maybe get 100 lives per month. Reset lives/ranks every month. Extra lives earned each month could be added to your starting lives the next month.

@FattyWhale_42: Cool! Even though the stars don't seem like much, they do help make the experience a little more exciting and of course the reduced time makes me more inclined to retry the course. Only 4 people had played it but 1 had already cleared it so it's definitely doing better than the original. I got to the checkpoint but I couldn't make it past the spike traps after that. Is the key just to use the invincibility from losing your helmet and go as quickly as possible? I kept trying but definitely not making it so I'm wondering if there is another way.

@Mythics: That sounds pretty complicated for Nintendo. I could see something on PS or Xbox doing that but not so much the big N.

You have to jump on the shell (and ride it) without getting hit. I know it's a pretty tough jump, but it's immediately after the checkpoint, so it's not completely evil (although you have to make sure to time that last part, and not get hit).

You can always take the alternate exit if you'd like. There's also 2 hidden stars (one can get you past the thwomps if you no longer have the helmet), and another hidden Mystery Mushroom. So it's a much more forgiving level.