Topic: Why do you think Mario has got more successful over the years but Sonic hasn’t?

Yeah, I can't help but wonder if YouTubers had an influence in spreading how bad Sonic is. Honestly, I never found the series to be bad, even when playing some of the "bad" games. Also, I really don't watch Sonic videos much anymore, they feel like the same opinions said by different people. Just an observation I've made over the years.

It makes me happy to know more people are starting to enjoy them, wonder if the re-release of Sonic Colors had anything to do with it too. Sonic Colors was Wii and DS only originally, but Ultimate brought it not only to Switch, also to Xbox and PlayStation, and PC.

Honestly I'm impressed Sonic is still as popular as he is. Between the failures of every Sega system after the Genesis, immediately switching to the also not successful Gamecube, and going multi-platform just in time to put out some of the worst games in the series, there was more than a full decade where barring a few handheld games, Sonic was largely focused on questionable games or mediocre to badly selling consoles.

@Sunsy I agree, In fact I think youtube basically says if sonic lives are dies, as its youtube whenever sonic has a change in opinion.

But, there are a few youtube channels I still watch, devoted to sonic content, only three tho, as those seem to be the only ones that actually care, and aren't kissing up, or crapping on him.

I do remember hearing about Unleashed,
that it sounded like the daytime "speed" levels were considered much better than the nighttime "exploration" levels.

I thought I heard one of the problems was that creating sufficiently lengthy speed levels could take up a lot of memory to have sufficient level geometry without Sonic running through it too fast to enjoy.

I have to really myself play much of the 3D Sonics, but what I've seen of streamers, I've seen quite a bit of what looks like good ideas perhaps fumbling a bit in execution. (fetch quests that feel like they'd take a bit too long, etc.)

Sonic's main angle is speed. As a consequence, despite having a more immediate thrill of going fast, there isn't much to develop as a 'mechanic'. With the first game, you either went so fast the stage just flew past beneath you or when you slowed down, Sonic's mechanics became rather unwieldly. Still the games do have instant gratification (much like Mortal Kombat and it's gore) but leaves the games fairly shallow and not ery long lasting. Mario is more an avatar for new ideas than a mascot. He has brought in so many console genrations with fresh takes (I mean Mario 64 was peerless) and Mario represents this (for me.)

I think one fundamental thing that many people seem to miss is that the Sonic games were always - at their core - arcade games. Yes they were never actual arcade games (yes I do know about SegaSonic) but they were fully informed by that tradition of arcade game design at Sega. They play like a rollercoaster ride where most people never really know what's going on. Sometimes you make a jump and get some unexpected bonus and sometimes you miss it and never know. Oh well - the game prods you to the same end point of the level one way or another anyway.

Underlying all of this is the idea of high score or best time chasing.

I think that as the arcade culture died a part of the appeal of Sonic being an approachable and well designed arcade experience sort of became depreciated.

Ironically Super Mario Bros was an actual arcade game but it was always designed to move beyond the arcade traditions. The game is meant to be prodded at and picked apart. They are inherently games that invite a different mindset and that's been reflected in the series as it's continued. It made it easier for Nintendo to make Mario games about slow paced exploration. I mean no-one even noticed and fewer cared when the series stopped recording your score or when the games got rid of the course timer.

If I were Sega I'd make a new 2d sonic game with really short levels - taking no longer than 1 minute. 2 minutes max for even the weakest players. Emphasise the high-score challenge of the game. Maybe not a game as hard or minimalist as Super Meat Boy but something taking inspiration from that modern design thread.

@KingMike In my opinion, unleash has the best 3d speed levels then any other sonic game, even gen.

Thanks @Sunsy I’ll keep in mind for future discussions I make

Yeah again there are some more really interesting opinions on this topic, I’m glad to see there are more Mario fans on here too cos after browsing past threads before joining it seemed like there were hardly any! So I was a bit sceptical about making Mario threads at first cos not sure if anyone would be interested

While I do like Sonic too, I’ve never been keen on his attitude. I know people will probably think Sonic has more personality than Mario and they’re right, but he’s way too cocky for me to prefer him as a character. Sonic being a videogame hero makes much more sense than a fat Italian plumber but Mario is mild mannered and down to earth, I like my heroes to be mr nice guy. And while Sonic is a mr nice guy too, that brash attitude he has puts me off the character a bit. I actually prefer Tails to Sonic as characters but that’s just me

Funny thing is, I reckon Sonic is a much better mascot than Mario. Distinctive colour, distinctive animal (how many other hedgehog characters are there - Miss Tiggywinkle?), and he has a USP in his speed.

Downside is, speed isn’t that much fun outside of racing games. Mario is about exploration and secrets, which also translated much better to a 3D environment. The fact that he’s a squat Italian with a moustache and dungarees isn’t really what has made him iconic.

Because Sega does not have good game designers, it is that simple.

@Troll_Decimator Yakuza, Phantasy Star, Streets of Rage, the later Wonder Boys, and Shining Force want to have a word with you…

(But I take your point!)

@Snatcher Yup, same here, I tend to stick to two channels for Sonic anything. Mostly because they have a more positive outlook and don't go demonizing fans for liking specific games.

@Yoshilover8 You're welcome.

@Krull Yeah, I should have specified that I'm talking about the ones responsible for Sonic over the years in specific. However, none of those series are ever or will ever be on the level of Mario, as much as I love Yakuza.

It's funny, Sonic Is constantly changing, he has been to space, fought eggman, fought a water monster, fought his evil self, twice(shadow and metal) fought knuckles, turned Into a werehog

Mario saves peach In different ways
I think Mario Is so popular because he's quiet so you feel like you ARE mario and that goes for all the characters, Sonic Is always yelling catchphrases and being funny while you Identify as Peach because all she does Is wave and say "Hi"

It's just a matter of game quality.

Sonic 2, 3 and Knuckles were my favorite games as a kid. But now in hindsight, I'm not really sure why. They're good games, but not masterpiece level. I think it was the characters I liked and that made me enjoy the games.

As you get older, you care less about the characters and more about the game's quality, and that has resulted in a reversal of preferences. And if you enjoy a game more based on its quality, ppl talk about it more, and it becomes more popular.

Mario games are almost always masterpiece level. Whereas Sonic games are somewhere between decent to downright bad. I don't mean to offend (some Sonic fans get really hostile if you criticize the games), I'm just sharing my personal opinion on the matter. Feel free to disagree.

And because Sonic never nailed 3D, they kept jumping around, trying different things, hoping something would stick, and that inconsistency led to a lack of identity and pedigree.

@JaxonH I mean SA1, SA2, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic colours and Sonic generations did a fantastic job

The best 3D Sonic game is Sonic Unleashed IMO

Unleashed has the best level design
The werehog stages did a good job on exploration (I love the werehogs stages btw)
The story and the cutscenes felt like a pixar movie
Jason did perfect with Sonic's voice

But the game reviewers like IGN gave Unleashed the most unfair review but these mfs have not played the game properly.

The reason people say Sonic hasn't gotten a good 3d game is because of the event of Sonic 06.

The game was so buggy
The game before release had so much content but after it got released, it was cut off.
They didn't develop it for the Xbox 360 because they didn't know it was coming out
SEGA split the team to make Sonic and the Secret rings
SEGA didn't provide so much support for the developers of sonic 06 and this is when Yuji Naka left SEGA because he knew it was going to be a disaster
SEGA didn't even delay the game and don't give a *****

But after the 06 event happened, it ruined Sonic's reputation, so Sega had to find a big way to bring back Sonic's reputation so they put all their budget to make Sonic Unleashed but unfortunately, Game journalist ruined all of it. They went too harsh on the game, it caused soo many people to listen to their opinions and say the game is hot trash.

The whole "Sonic had a rough transition into 3D" is *****

SA1 was a great transition into 3D and it got the best sequel which is SA2

Sonic Forces imo is the worst Sonic game i've ever played

Sega rushed the game AGAIN
They made a hedgehog engine 2 and developed forces for a year
Horrible writing
dogshit story and
Sega false advertised the game

It really pissed me off that they really tricked us

The game we are now waiting is Sonic Frontiers

Now what does frontiers have now

Let me give u a pros and cons

Pros:

• Open world level design
• High budget game
• Ian Flynn writing the game
• it is really ambitious
• Sonic is back to it's serious tone
• SEGA delayed the game from 2021 to 2022 to add more quality
• SEGA is taking risks again this time and that's a good thing

now the cons:

• It is SEGA
• They could go into the same direction as forces
• We don't know what the gameplay be like
• We don't know if the elements from other Sonic games will be there
• Sega staying silent on the game is concerning

Frontiers will be the Sonic game that will bring Sonic back

This is what SEGA wanted, this is the game SEGA really wanted to make just like 06 but this time SEGA is really being careful

You wanna know what really happend. a little pink ball ate sonic up and he was never seen agian. That pink ball is kirby.

@BenAV Hahahaha. Skill issue.

@Troll_Decimator Hahahaha. Worthy of your name.

So why do you think Mario got better and has stayed successful but Sonic didn't?

The anti-fur bias. Some humans automatically think that all two-legged primates are superior to those of us with luxurious pelts.