@Magitek_Knight I’m going to push the boat out and say that, from what you’ve posted here, you probably wouldn’t enjoy any 3D Zelda game (certainly not the GC version of Wind Waker - the long, long sailing sequences are like Hyrule field on steroids).
Honestly I think you can find other games to play that you’d enjoy more.
A good balance of exploration and linear gameplay. The amount if exploration should always be considered, limited section-by-section and a proper part of the design, rather than being open world.
A balance of mandatory gameplay and optional sidequests. Again, they should be well designed such as in Majora's Mask, rather than a checklist.
Plot progression. Completing each dungeon should move the story along.
Item gating. Fire an arrow into the target and you can cross the bridge. This allows the designers to control your experience throughout the game, rather than leaving you to possibly experience long and fruitless gameplay sessions.
Action-based combat, but not so intense that it's trying to be an action game.
A few satisfying puzzles that make a dungeon feel cohesive.
Innocent charm. They shouldn't try to make it too cutesy or too badass.
@StuTwo the problem here the that's worth noting that while TP may have some prblems a poorer entry Ina Zelda series still is a great game compared to other games. Some of the dungeons were dull but I liked a lot of them.
I’m not sure TP is a great game relative to other contemporary adventure or action games (though it certainly has some great moments)
I have a broader critique of the Zelda-Metroidvania template. I think it falls apart and ceases to be satisfying when the game becomes too big. This is particularly obvious with TP.
It’s no coincidence that the best games in the genre are all actually pretty short second time through. It’s probably an evolutionary dead end for AAA games.
Doing things like adding an RPG levelling system (also called “wasting my time” Castlevania), random drop “loot”, rogue lite elements, doubling down on dungeons (that’s you Skyward Sword) are just ways to try and circumvent that natural limit of the template.
To me the only way that has really been satisfying has been Hollow Knights’ built in alternate routes with alternate powers but even that can only extend the limits of the genre so far.
The story was great too especially the dark atmosphere. I've never played thru Skyward Sword I want to hoping to get a port
I thought the story was pretty generic and anything interesting dissipated in the back half of the game (although Midna was a great character). Skyward Sword has a good story.
The grim dark art style of TP didn’t really feel like a good fit to the series to me (again Skyward Sword nailed the look of the series for me - I’m glad BoTW took that style as it’s lead).
@StuTwo That's fair and probably taking what I've said more seriously than someone hearing about my boredom with open world traversal and still recommending I buy a Switch and BOTW right now.
I am realizing though that I didn't attempt to play a Zelda game again for 15 years after Ocarina disappointed me (I tried Phantom Hourglass in January- it seems all right but the control with the stylus gets tiresome and apparently it's a sequel to Wind Waker so I'm lost on the story beats) I think the amount of hype it gets mixed with not seeing what's so special about it left a bad taste in my mouth and now I'm just inclined to be down on the Zelda series. I'd like to try and get over that prejudicial inclination.
I do want to give one more game a try at least and try to approach it with an open mind. I don't inherently hate games with a lot of exploration or an open format. I've been enjoying the first Shenmue, lately in spite of it sharing several of Ocarina's flaws like a weird archaic save system.
Huh, you can save your progress at any point, what's werid about it?
There's other games in the series that have it way worse, like the first one where you could only save after a game over (or by using a rather obscure method that involves having a second controller).
@Eel In Ocarina if you save you start back in the elf village even if you were in the mountains. You can't just save and pick up where you left off.
People gave the original Resident Evils crap about their save point system for years but at least you don't have to start back from the mansion or police station's lobby everytime you turn the game on.
Well, if you save in a dungeon, you do start there. And as I mentioned before, even without the travel songs, you can use the warp points in the Lost Woods to move around quickly. So it's a minute or two to get anywhere you may want to be.
Once you get to the 'Adult Link' section of the game, you start directly in the Temple of Time, and you'll then get the travel songs as you go.
There's also a magic item you can get to create a warp point inside a dungeon, though I don't entirely remember how it works.
A) you have to know about these warp points ahead of time. Someone that's never played the game before won't know about them, and when I tried the 3DS version I certainly didn't remember that detail from 15 years earlier. People that have played the game a half dozen times seem to assume everyone has their level of knowledge about how the game works. If you accidentally quit the game like I did on the 3DS port about two or three hours in, you have no choice but to walk the field again. It doesn't save from the base of the mountain or the village there, which seems like the obvious choice to me.
B) i know about the dungeon saves, but I quit in the middle of the mountain.
Well, that's the point of the game, explore, figure things out. People enjoy finding shortcuts, it makes them feel clever.
The game actually does point you in the direction of the warp points very early on, since you need to traverse the Lost Woods to get Saria's Song (it's a mandatory). Along the way to her secret spot you'll find two landmarks that stick out: The stone archway to Goron City, and the stone well that leads to Zora's Domain.
The first time, you won't be able to do anything with them, since they each require you visit those places first, but the memory of those landmarks will stick with most players, and they'll figure things out.
Those who maybe ignored them the first time, might stumble upon the other side of the portals (which is not hard), and it will click then.
@Magitek_Knight yep. I think the games are generally very good (& personally BoTW is what I want games to be like!) but they’re not for everyone. If you didn’t like Hyrule Field then the Great Ocean in Wind Waker would kill you. And Twilight Princess literally has 4 Hyrule Fields.
You might enjoy some of the 2d games (lttp and Minish Cap would be the best to try imo) but honestly I don’t think they’re the games you’ll ever love.
@StuTwo I think it's gonna be LttP again, then. I always meant to go back and finish it (and selling my SNES was itself a mistake). And don't don't get me wrong, I think I'm dealing less with overall disliking a series than I am being so disappointed by one that it's skewed my perspective on the rest of them. It's been many years since I really played a Zelda game and I do want to give them another chance. And I think a lot of this is just due to the weight of hype. When you're told a game, or series of games, is one of the best ever, you go in with certain expectations and when they don't live up to those expectations it can give a pretty strong negative reaction. The way people talked about it, I expected to be blown away by Ocarina but it's more...eh, it's all right. On the other hand, the one everyone looks down on, Zelda 2, I remember liking.
I've seen this with other series, too. The unquestionably bad Sonic 2006 tainted a lot of players' views of the series, and I've heard some people say "well, Sonic was NEVER good" despite...y'know, Sonic 1 and 2 at least being incredible for their time.
Really, and correct me if I'm wrong, ultimately what this thread is about is your expectations of a Zelda game. My experience fell short of my expectations; everyone else has different expectations.
And every time I hear about BOTW "raising the bar" or "breaking new ground" or "best ever" I'm like, oh NO. You're setting people up to be disappointed the way I was with Ocarina.
@damien33ad
I don't have to fit in everywhere but I'd like to fit in somewhere.
I never said I didn't like LttP. Of all the Zelda games I played I think it was by far the most positive experience and I'd like to revisit it. In hindsight I can't think of a bad word to say about it. Link's Awakening DX was mostly positive as well. Just for whatever reason I didn't finish them. I think in LttP's case finals rolled around and then summer vacation and I kind of forgot about about it
I'd even be willing to take on Ocarina again, and maybe instead of approaching it as "best game ever? Thrill me" just approach it as I would a normal game. People change. Tastes change. I'm for sure now not who I was 15, 10, or 20 years ago. I'll try again, and maybe I'll come around.
@MetalKingShield But the question is how much of that is truly essential, and which parts we could change but still be left with a Zelda game. Take Ocarina of Time (arguably the closest thing to a "typical" 3D Zelda). Instead of child Link waking up in Kokiri Forest, the game begins with adult Link in the Temple of Light. After all, it's common knowledge that Miyamoto originally imagined the game as a sequel to Super Mario 64 featuring adult Link jumping into paintings in Hyrule Castle (child Link was added in later). Link gradually unlocks key items such as the bombs, bow, hookshot, and hammer which he uses to complete trials. After doing so, Rauru reveals himself as the Sage of Light and explains that Link lost all of his memories after unsuccessfully trying to stop Ganondorf from stealing the Triforce seven years ago and that he must awaken the other five sages to help Princess Zelda seal Ganon in the Sacred Realm once and for all.
Link is then returned to the Temple of Time and free to complete the other temples in any order he chooses. Each one will reward him with a heart container and a very useful but not necessary item - Saria's Ocarina for fast overworld travel, Darunia's Fire to conjure a massive fire dome, Ruto's Love for protection from damage, Impa's Wind to create dungeon checkpoints, and Nabooru's Reward (a 1-up mushroom type power). In addition to the temples, there are Hidden Holes around the map that function as mini-dungeons (each one rewarding Link a Piece of Heart and serving as a fast-travel location). Discovering Link's backstory (the Deku Tree's death, leaving the Kokiri Forest, becoming Darunia's sworn brother, meeting Malon and Epona, becoming engaged to Ruto, meeting Ganondorf and Princess Zelda, etc) is an optional sidequest that allows you to see the best ending.
So the question is, would this version of Ocarina of Time still be a Zelda game? I think it would be. After all, Ocarina of Time already features several "gated" puzzles that have multiple solutions (either hookshoting your way across the bridge or jumping over with a fast horse; lighting torches with fire arrows, Din's Fire, ordinary arrows lit on fire, or a Deku stick; using magic beans to get somewhere or figuring out different way, etc). And there are in fact 14 different orders for completing the temples (without exploiting glitches or doing something cheesy like getting the key item and leaving). Doing them in a different order from the standard Forest-fire-water-shadow-spirit doesn't matter to the plot and progression. Allowing players to do one of the other 106 permutations wouldn't either. It's a difference in degree, not in kind.
Whether or not it would be a good or even a great Zelda game would depend on how it was actually executed. I think that Breath of the Wild and the version of Ocarina of Time we actually got are both excellent Zelda games, even if they're very different takes on the same formula.
I do think one of the essential characteristics is being good. Nintendo proved this when they seemingly tried to make Zelda bad in Phantom Hourglass, and yet somehow still had a pretty decent video game, all things considered.
Any grim dark atmosphere in TP breaks as soon as you see any of the various funny-looking npc clowning around.
While I do agree some of the more tryhard attempts to be dark were more just bizarre, I don't think this is quite the inherent contradiction you think it is. Especially after Majora's Mask, the game where you can ignore the unending end of the world scenario to race beavers for a bottle. : D
Saying the story for TP was generic is sort of like saying the story for OoT is generic. Or, LttP.
Yes I know. The stories for OoT and LttP were generic light fantasy stuff.
Apart from Majora's Mask, Skyward Sword and Links Awakening I don't think any of the Zelda games has a plot that's even worth talking about. Not that that's a problem in and of itself. Video games often have imaginative settings and characters but basically never have genuinely interesting plots or great storytelling on a par with film or television. Ultimately the setting and characters matter more.
While I do agree some of the more tryhard attempts to be dark were more just bizarre, I don't think this is quite the inherent contradiction you think it is. Especially after Majora's Mask, the game where you can ignore the unending end of the world scenario to race beavers for a bottle. : D
Hey - they were dark beavers from hell. Or something...
More seriously though - it's about the general tone and setting. A moment can be profound or sad but drawn in bright primary colours. Infact I'd argue it's much easier to do that than make everything ultra realistic but then introduce a little 5 year old boy who becomes an ultra capitalist shop owner. Making things more and more "realistic" invites me to critically analyse the world through a different lens and when things clash it matters more.
I feel like some people like to think TP was trying to be this gritty realistic game, and sometimes it feels like it did try... But then the game starts with a close up of Rusl’s face.
I don’t think it’s a negative trait, just Nintendo being Nintendo. It’s just interesting how this cartoony side is so much more prevalent in the TP NPCs though.
Not that I’d prefer generic Elder Scrolls-looking people roaming Hyrule, mind you.
When you're told a game, or series of games, is one of the best ever, you go in with certain expectations and when they don't live up to those expectations it can give a pretty strong negative reaction. The way people talked about it, I expected to be blown away by Ocarina but it's more...eh, it's all right.
Yeah, that's how I feel about Ocarina. I mean it's a really good game for sure, but I didn't play it until 2016 and I didn't think it was as amazing as I expected. That may be partly because my expectations were too high, but on the other hand I had very high expectations for Breath of the Wild and that did blow me away. So I think the reason why I was a bit more ambivalent towards Ocarina is because of the 'Beatles effect', where a hugely influential piece of media doesn't seem as impressive if you first experience it years after it originated, because so many other things have taken inspiration from it that it now feels a bit generic.
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Topic: What are the Essential characteristics of a Zelda game?
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