Topic: What are the Essential characteristics of a Zelda game?

@Magitek_Knight LttP is a great game. It's basically the structure mapping that almost all of the subsequent games (and almost all Metroidvanias - they are the same just from a different perspective) have used ever since. Whether in 2d or 3d it doesn't really make much difference - lttp is a touchstone videogame that you should play regardless of whether or not you want to get into this particular series.

The other 2d game I would perhaps recommend as an entry point is the GBA game "The Minish Cap". It's under-rated, very easy but very vibrant. It has more concessions to "modernity" than lttp and while it's not a better game it covers a similar mixture of game concepts and patterns and is generally more approachable.

Of the 3d Zelda games I'd recommend steering clear of Twilight Princess. It goes on. And on. And on. And on. And that's just the tutorial at the start. That game and Skyward Sword - whilst both having things to recommend them for - are just too long and padded out. Those two games also lean into fan servicing and call backs for fans. Majora's Mask is a great game but many people find it quite stressful and few would call it a good entry point.

Wind Waker is a wonderful 3d adventure game with the most character of any in the series (or of any Nintendo game full stop). That would be my best recommendation for the 3d games - with the proviso that you play the Wii U version that allows for faster travel and changes the late game experience significantly for the better (the original Gamecube version slowed things down to a crawl). If you don't have a Wii U then I'd strongly advise just waiting. It'll be ported to Switch. One day. Eventually.

All that said - just play Breath of the Wild. It's probably the crowning achievement of video games over the past 10 years. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and there are likely to be a few things that niggle you with it over time (like lack of enemy variety) but it's just so enjoyable from moment to moment.

@StuTwo Not to nitpick but I've taken a look at BOTW gameplay videos and it looks dull even by open world standards. Metal Gear Solid V bored me to tears and I say that as a longtime MGS fan. The only open world games I've enjoyed are on a smaller scale like Arkham City. What I've seen brings back bad memories of Ocarina- endlessly, slowly crossing open empty land and I dislike games with survival mechanics. Open world is second only to lootboxes in gaming fads I won't be sorry to see go.

In any case I don't have a Switch and probably won't until there's a significant drop in price. I can't really justify paying a premium for a secondary console, games that don't drop much in price, and a control pad because the default controller's buttons are too small for my hands.

Will definitely avoid Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. If they're mostly padding and fanservice it sounds like they have nothing to offer me.

Wind Waker is probably my first choice but I don't have a Wii U (I wasn't even aware it existed until last year, I thought it went straight from Wii to the Switch).

@StuTwo The tutorial in Twilight Princess is often the only thing that people complain about that drags on for too long, what else drags on besides that? Skyward Sword definitely does have a bit of padding, but personally I enjoyed it all so I didn't mind much. Also, what fanservice moments are you talking about? I've replayed them fairly recently and don't remember anything like that in either game. I don't think I've heard anyone else complain about that either. If anything BotW has the most callbacks to previous entries.

@Magitek_Knight If you're not a fan of large open areas, then I think most 3D Zelda games will disappoint you. Skyward Sword has the big open sky (although most of the game is pretty linear besides that), Wind Waker has the ocean, Twilight Princess has similar fields to Hyrule Field in Ocarina of Time. Majora's mask would probably be your best bet if you dislike that sort of thing, but even that has Termina Field. Personally the only open field I have complains with are in Twilight Princess, since there's usually not much going on in them. I think a lot of people like these parts of the games because it sparks a sense of adventure, discovering what's around the corner. This is especially true in BoTW since there's so many things to discover around every corner.

If you want to try 2D Zelda games I'd recommend A Link Between Worlds, Manish Cap, or the Oracle games. While A Link to the Past is still a fun game and holds up fairly well, A Link Between Worlds generally just has more going for it if you don't have your nostaglia goggles on.

@Cynas The main problem is large open areas that don't have anything going on and having to cross the same open area a billion times. I was sick of Hyrule field by the 5th or 6th time I had to run across it; was some form of fast travel that hard to fathom in 1997? It's like a really lengthy loading screen basically.

I've spent more time learning to navigate and traverse woods and driving cross country in real life than I would care to. I don't want to sit down and do either virtually.

I've also ruled out those 2D entries just due to not liking handhelds.

@Magitek_Knight All 3D Zelda games do have fast travel. In Ocarina of Time you only unlock it after traveling to the future for the first time I think, but there's a fast travel song to each of the game's adult dungeons and one to Castle Town. There's still a fair amount of traveling in Hyrule Field you have to do, especially at the beginning of the game, but you also unlock the Epona in the adult timeline which makes getting around Hyrule Field much easier.

@Cynas I just didn't remember those, though I do now. It's been about 15 years since I played it. Definitely don't remember an Epona though.

Even as child link, you have shortcuts in the Lost Woods, which take you directly from there to either Goron City or Zoras Domain.

Which by the way don't make the perishable items expire, unlike the travel songs. So the Lost Woods are good for delivering those during the trading sequence.

I mean I've only ever played the games from loose carts. (For that matter the only Nintendo games I have owned new are Metroid Prime and F-Zero GX, and possibly the Pokemon I had on my first 3DS). I didn't have the manuals so if it wasn't explicity explained in-game it's likely I missed it. And it's possible I missed stuff that was explained in-game.

I'm not sure what the trading sequence is for example.

You get a sword that is twice as long, and twice as strong than the Master Sword at the end.

The caveat is that you can't use your shield while that sword is out.

These are just things you figure out by exploring and trying out stuff... For example, I don't think I ever read the manuals either... And when we first played the game, we didn't really understand English, so tiny me and my big brother figured everything via trial and error.

But eventually things fell into place, and everything connected.

At some point I always lose patience with trial and error. It's why I've never finished any of the Souls games, it just gets dull trying to figure out how exactly the game designer wants me to do things.

@damien33ad oh you're thinking about the goron knife, which is just a tease for the real thing. The goron sword never breaks.

If he doesn't like trial and error, I'm not sure Link's Awakening would be a good match, the entire game is basically one big puzzle.

Even I end up lost every now and then in that one. That darn bird key...

There are far too many rote dungeons. They are mostly OK but also all so self-contained and "by the numbers" (with the exception of that more novel one in the snow mansion) that they could have been slotted into any other 3d Zelda game (Nintendo has actually admitted that a couple of the Twilight Princess dungeons were recycled designs originally intended for the back half of Wind Waker. Which is probably why Twilight Princess feels too dungeon heavy and Wind Waker seems short one or two).

It feels worse in Twilight Princess as well because so many of the dungeon items are basically not used at all outside of the dungeon you find them in (looking at you "ball and chain" and "giant ride-able sawblade"), because the art style makes them all look exactly the same and because the world is larger so that you can hunt for bugs.

The whole game is patterned after Ocarina's world. And to look like a higher spec version of Ocarina. And to have Epona in it - like Ocarina - even though you can run as a wolf. Even the skeleton that teaches you moves is supposed to be Link from Ocarina. Other Zelda games have lots and lots of nods to other games but few actually feel as straight up "Ocarina of Time fan game sequel wish list" as Twilight Princess.

I like Skyward Sword a lot more (both thematically, from an artistic design perspective and as a game) but its far too linear and I never enjoyed "dousing". Infact I really disliked it. Fan service wise it deliberately wants to tie the "Zelda timeline" together by acting as a kind of origin story. Skyward Sword is an interesting story regardless but it came across to me as a bit "fanservice-y".

@damien33ad I mean I'm unemployed and have moving expenses to deal with right now plus I don't want to buy a Switch while supply is short and everyone is price gouging, especially since it's a secondary console and I need to buy a $60 pro controller along with it because Nintendo apparently hates people with larger than average hands. I've also already played Link's Awakening, $50 to play a game I already didn't bother finishing again with mobile game looking graphics is not ideally how I spend 4 hours worth of wages.

I briefly had a Switch Lite, returned it the same day due to ergonomics problems.

@damien33ad Eh, I'm out of work partially by choice. I left in March to limit my exposure to Covid and prevent getting my dad sick. I'm not hurting for money, I had saved ahead of time. I just don't want to shell out a lot of money on a new console before I get my new place furnished. Needs before wants right now.

And I do have a Wii (and a GC controller/memory card)...I'm just hearing mixed things about the Zelda games available for it and WW and TP can be quite expensive, and Skyward Sword requires an extra control attachment thing. :/

@damien33ad Pricecharting has it trending about $50-60 for a complete copy (which is how I'd prefer to have it). Gamestop is kind of luck of the draw on what you get in terms of both completeness and condition.

@Magitek_Knight I’m going to push the boat out and say that, from what you’ve posted here, you probably wouldn’t enjoy any 3D Zelda game (certainly not the GC version of Wind Waker - the long, long sailing sequences are like Hyrule field on steroids).

Honestly I think you can find other games to play that you’d enjoy more.

I'd say:

• A good balance of exploration and linear gameplay. The amount if exploration should always be considered, limited section-by-section and a proper part of the design, rather than being open world.
• A balance of mandatory gameplay and optional sidequests. Again, they should be well designed such as in Majora's Mask, rather than a checklist.
• Plot progression. Completing each dungeon should move the story along.
• Item gating. Fire an arrow into the target and you can cross the bridge. This allows the designers to control your experience throughout the game, rather than leaving you to possibly experience long and fruitless gameplay sessions.
• Action-based combat, but not so intense that it's trying to be an action game.
• A few satisfying puzzles that make a dungeon feel cohesive.
• Innocent charm. They shouldn't try to make it too cutesy or too badass.

I’m not sure TP is a great game relative to other contemporary adventure or action games (though it certainly has some great moments)

I have a broader critique of the Zelda-Metroidvania template. I think it falls apart and ceases to be satisfying when the game becomes too big. This is particularly obvious with TP.

It’s no coincidence that the best games in the genre are all actually pretty short second time through. It’s probably an evolutionary dead end for AAA games.

Doing things like adding an RPG levelling system (also called “wasting my time” Castlevania), random drop “loot”, rogue lite elements, doubling down on dungeons (that’s you Skyward Sword) are just ways to try and circumvent that natural limit of the template.

To me the only way that has really been satisfying has been Hollow Knights’ built in alternate routes with alternate powers but even that can only extend the limits of the genre so far.

The story was great too especially the dark atmosphere. I've never played thru Skyward Sword I want to hoping to get a port

I thought the story was pretty generic and anything interesting dissipated in the back half of the game (although Midna was a great character). Skyward Sword has a good story.

The grim dark art style of TP didn’t really feel like a good fit to the series to me (again Skyward Sword nailed the look of the series for me - I’m glad BoTW took that style as it’s lead).

Any grim dark atmosphere in TP breaks as soon as you see any of the various funny-looking npc clowning around.