This seems like a very narrow conception of what a "good dungeon" should involve. I agree there should be some misdirection involved when navigating dungeons, but nothing to the degree that was in Nocturne's dungeons.
And there's really no reason for them to be mazes. The maze-like layouts of dungeons in RPGs is primarily due to the processing limitations of older hardware. Dungeon design should evolve with new hardware.
Nocturne´s dungeons are one of the best dungeons ever made actually. Those dungeons are huge, variable, often with no immediatelly obvious way how to proceed to the next floor. On par with the fantastic Water Temple from Ocarina of Time. Such dungeons are memorable as they are cleverly designed and difficult. Once you beat such a dungeon, nothing else can be compared to the feeling of satisfaction.
I disagree. If you make dungeons more linear and narrow, then it is not an evolution but a devolution. You cannot make something simpler and then consider it better. It´s just not how level design in videogames works. Players need to have a challenge, players need to feel that something in front of them may beat them, but if they try hard enough, they will beat it. This is when the most memorable gaming moments come to light. Not when you see a beautiful cutscene, not when you beat a boss while the game tells you what to do, but when you beat a difficult segment by your own wits, skill and patience.
This is the principle on which f.e. Dark Souls works and also dungeons in Nocturne. SMT Strange Journey has also a superb dungeon design.
Hard disagree. Maps are essential in any game heavily featuring exploration. Atlus knows this. The EO games are dungeon-crawlers all about constructing maps. In good JRPGs, the map and gameplay work in tandem to elevate the experience.
For example, in the second area of SMT V, there was an area with a bunch of small containment units. Almost all of them could be entered, but I noticed one wasn't able to be entered from the ground. Confused, I poked around for a while before eventually figuring out that, hey, if I climbed a nearby stack of crates and jumped onto the top of these buildings, I might find a way in, and, lo and behold, that previously unexplorable space had an open skylight I could jump into.
That's a decent environmental puzzle. Not some dank pit where you have to figure out through trial and error which invisible holes in the floor you have to fall through to get to a teleporter that'll redirect you where you need to go. SMT III is full of artificially difficult environments like that.
The director of SMT V was also the director of the Etrian Odyssey games, which makes me feel like we're going to see an evolution of that series' very old-school dungeon design as well when and if it comes to Switch.
There is a difference between making your own map and to have a map with tons of markers, icons where you should go.
You know, players these days rather look at a minimap in the corner of their screens than the gaming world around them. I consider games that force players to have a minimap constantly visible on the screen bad designed games. Thankfully, SMT 5 is different. But SMT 5 has non-switchable icons on the map. I do not understand why. I do not want to see any icons because looking at an icon and then going to that place is not an exploration.
When you see a couple of rooms opened of which one has its door barricaded and a pit in its roof, so you can enter the room through it, it is not an enviromental puzzle, not even a puzzle, as it is too trivial. Too easy, too predictable. LOL when you cannot enter a room from the front, it is obvious you either can enter it from other sides or not at all as SMT V does not contain a gameplay based on throwing bombs or explosives so the barricade can be blown away.
You are wrong. There is nothing wrong about trial and error in dungeons as traps are a common part of dungeons. There has to be some kind of risk when you see several levers placed next to each other while not knowing what their purpose is. Either you push a wrong lever and something falls on you or you are teleported god-knows-where or whatever or you push the right lever and f.e. a new path for you to continue opens. This is the principle of great dungeons that can be found in many great games.
@BlackenedHalo buddy the dungeons in Nocturne are like two steps aways from the "dungeons" in Pokémon Red and Blue. When Rali said "all stick and no carrot" I think that sums it up pretty well and I think you'd agree: it's risk v. reward. Without a proper incentive to explore an area why would most people bother? It's okay if you like that kinda thing, but I think it's fair to say that most people are tired of that kind of game design.
Switch friend code: SW-2223-7827-8798
Give me a heads-up if you're going to send a request please.
@BlackenedHalo The water temple, while a right pain in the butt, is, indeed, quite clever. I'll give you that. Nocturne's dungeons aren't, and that's the difference. I wouldn't be dunking on them if they had Zelda-tier puzzles and gimmicks.
I didn't say dungeons should be more narrow and linear. I just don't think they should be labyrinths. If a dungeon is going to be difficult or complex to navigate, I'd prefer it be due to the presence of interesting design choices. Making absurdly labyrinthine dungeons isn't clever, engaging, or fun. It's just tedious.
For you, "great dungeons" are tedious and painful by design, and I just don't see a good argument to be made for that being appealing on a game design levels. Great dungeons typically have design elements that elevate them. Pure trial-and-error is not good game design. It's the laziest way to design a dungeon there is.
So, not only did the premium edition come back in stock, it was also part of a Buy 2 Get 1 Free offer.
I was able to order it and Blue Reflection, and got Undernauts free. I'll just return the premium edition under my old order to get full price refunded.
Score 😉
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
Just started the second (?) area, finally feels like the game is starting to take off the training wheels which is nice.
...but I have no clue where I'm going half the time.
I'm a little unsure about the story so far. IV had me hooked on the story by this point but V has better gameplay. We'll see how it goes.
@Snaplocket the lack of skill slots has been my biggest issue with SMT V so far. I can still progress through the game but I feel like I need to hold back on fusions and essences.
Being able to fuse demons higher than my level was nice too.
I'm not too mad about gun attacks being removed but I would have liked to see it featured along with the Psy/Nuclear attacks. But I'm limited with skill slots as it is, so maybe that's for the best.
It's definitely an odd mix of Nocturne and IV, but with new elements. I'm still enjoying it regardless
I am about 30ish hours into the game now. I think I am approaching the end given the boss I just defeated. The game is pretty thin in terms of variety and I am feeling kinda burnt out on it at this point, really having to push myself to just get through to the end. I think when taken in the context of just how much I hated Nocturne about 15 hours in, and given I am twice as far into this one, I’d rank the game at probably around an 8. However, when taken on it’s own merits in isolation, I’d probably rank the game a high 6/low 7.
I’m not gonna get into the difficulty pacing discussion again, we’ve laboured this point. However, regardless, this still remains my biggest issue with the game. I found the difficulty spikes and losses of progress so tedious at one point, I just ended up sticking the game on Safety and staying there so I could just keep progressing forwards with no worries. I think this is a tedious way to play the game and I do not recommend doing it this way. However, there is not enough of a divide between casual and normal, but an astronomical difference between safety and casual. It sorta feels like you’ve got baby mode or very hard or ultra hard and those are your only choices. Had they put a more conventional normal difficulty in, I would have enjoyed this a lot more. And the autosave thing but let us not go into that again.
What also became extremely tedious very quickly was the world design. After a while, it seemed like every map used the same design structure. It’ll put the goal location on a piece of elevation directly in front of you and each time the solution was to run to the opposite end of the map, turn around a corner and you’ll find a path upwards to get to the goal. Very little testing of your platforming abilities and no BOTW or whatever style abilities to create little problems to solve. Just this same go in the opposite direction and turn left style thing every time. By the end I was just like “for ***** sake”, can you for once just put the next objective in front of me?
And I know, first world problems etc. But so much of this game’s design, like with the saving situation, where the game just adds an extra step to everything. It doesn’t add or enhance the experience anyway, b what it does do is create a lot of little annoyances, that grow into massive pains in the arse when you’ve gone through the same motions dozens of times by the end.
It doesn’t help that performance can at times be completely terrible. The game can absolutely chug at times and in handheld, even going in and out of a menu can cause slowdown. There can sometimes be a weird lag/delay on jumping which makes platforming feel imprecise, too. Thankfully this rarely matters, but when it does cause you to fail and you have to do the same run across the map and go left bollocks again, especially toward the end, it’s like… that is enough SMT V for me for a while.
I think it’s a real shame the game can be so choppy, as I do think the actual art direction is wonderful. There is so much artistry and character in this world, it can make even the most mundane parts seem vibrant and exciting. If the rumours of this coming out on PC are true, I might consider buying it again just to see it in 4k 60 on a big screen.
And for sure, if taken in the context of the rancid turd that was Nocturne’s level design, this is a significant, astronomical, improvement in basically every way. But just taken in the context of it’s own merits, I don’t SMT V is a particularly great example of this kind of mini-open world/hub design. It is just all smoke and mirrors, one set path through a bunch of obtuse directions and a bunch of unscaleable objects to give the illusion of grander space than it really is. You’re basically still in Nocturne’s corridors, only now there is no roof on them, which is why your Switch’s fans are going crazy.
The other thing I grew to really hate about SMT V’s level design is the over world monsters. This isn’t an inherently bad idea, but all the elements layer in such a way to create a lot of needless frustration. I can’t tell you the amount of times I’d be standing still, trying to work out what is the most obtuse path before me, as that was guaranteed to be the right way and as I am trying to survey the land, I am just getting attacked by wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave, after wave of enemies, just seemingly endlessly spawning next to me and attacking me. I never thought I’d miss random encounters every few steps, but at least there I could stand ***** still and look around without being attacked.
And I know all of this sounds pretty negative, but as said, I clearly didn’t hate SMT V given I’ve almost finished it. I gave up on Nocturne in around 15 hours. While I dislike a lot of the changes in terms of how power is given to you and I think some simplifications are for the worse, the core loop of recruiting demons, fusing them into new demons and doing it all again remains an addictive joy. There is just so much personality put into every demon and every attack, it really puts similar games to shame in that regard.
It is just that much like Nocturne around that, I just don’t really like anything outside of the core loop, but the difference here is I don’t want to scream in frustration after playing for like 30 seconds when I play SMT V. Nocturne was less like playing a video game but instead like playing a game designed by Jigsaw, an elaborate torture device designed for the sole purpose of driving you mad and causing you physical pain. So yeah, in that regard, the fact SMT V is no longer… that, shows big improvement. But on it’s own, I don’t think it stands up to really even similar games on the same system. So yeah, high 6/low 7 for me.
Is there a possibility this is headed to Ps4 and PS5? I want to get the game, but I'm holding out in the case it does, as I want to play TV mode and use my own headphones. I saw an article here mentioning something about how the code refers to a playstation release, and I'm curious if I should just hold off until then.
"It is fate. Many have tried, yet none have ever managed to escape it's flow."
Beat Nuwa (in the Diet Building) today. I actually did win on my first try, though I just coasted by with two party members left (and it certainly helped that the fight ended early, too). I decided to immediately re-try it since I knew what the weaknessess/resistances were, and managed to get through the fight the second go around with everyone alive.
Back in the real world now. Defeated Lahmu the first go around without much issue, and am now chasing them down again in the first dungeon like environment.
Currently Playing:
Switch - Blade Strangers
PS4 - Kingdom Hearts III, Tetris Effect (VR)
@CactusMan I'd consider that a dungeon but it was really short and had no boss at the end, just a cutscene. My main problem with the dungeons in IV (and Nocturne for some parts) was that the dungeons were just corridors with different wall textures. The school was literally three floors of the same demons.
But I'm sure it gets better! And even if it doesn't it's still fun
@VoidofLight it's mentioned in the code but hasn't been confirmed, however the same thing happened with the PC version of Nocturne.
Ever since Sega bought Atlus they have been pushed to release on more platforms and I'm sure using Unreal/Unity helps with this.
-but you might be waiting a year or so. It seems to be selling well and they won't want to slow down the Switch sales. Nintendo also published the game in Europe but I'm not sure if they helped fund the game (?). If they did they would have tried to market it more, so I doubt it.
Ah, just got the miracle to Switch my affinities. Right on.
The more I play the deeper it gets. Tried playing some Pokémon, some Ruined King, and a few other games. All good games. But at the end of the day I keep coming back to this.
At the rate I'm playing it may take months to beat. But I don't care. It's so fun I almost prefer to stretch it out.
Crazy to think back to my first experience with SMTIV, and bouncing off like hitting a brick wall. And yet now... I'm totally into it and doing rather well, I might add.
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
Finally got round to "beating" the boss in the Diet Building at Level 21. On Hard it just goes on for ever with me having to spam Attack in the end as I've ran out of MP. Now have real world Tokyo to do. Still enjoying it, but do have the urge to get stuck into Pokemon Brilliant Diamond.
Currently streaming on Twitch: Elden Ring - https://www.twitch.tv/yegs88
This game is so incredibly addicting. I can't put it down. I'll stick around a single save point and explore a bit, battle, come back, restock, explore a bit further, rinse and repeat, until eventually I make it to the next save point.
I'm level 15 now, so progress is being made, slowly but surely, and I have every demon in the reverse compendium fused and in the registry up through Level 15.
I love everything about this game. It's just fun as heck to play.
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
I've just gotten to Taito and it seems like there's a massive spike in the level needed to progress. Enemies went from mid 50's to everyone in the storyline being above level 70.
I honestly feel like I've accidentally skipped some of the storyline as the gap seems huge for you to just need to grind.
@alpacatears
A bit of grinding, mixed with using all your saved items to level up, mixed with a bit higher difficulty, and if needed, a drop to casual mode- that should close the gap enough.
That's why I'm saving all my level up items for later on when the inevitable moment comes I need them.
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
So I'm near the end of the third area/zone, checked my items, and I have 40+ grimoires! Almost nothing to do with them, because I fuse my demons constantly to keep their levels up anyway. Can't imagine how much of these sorts of items you must find with the Mitama DLC.
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