Topic: Metroid Prime 4: Beyond

@Zkibu My hot take would be.

Other M was trying to get a 2Desque Metroid on a big console, though I guess they did not understand that the players were adamant about the exploration and meaningful progression.
Federation Force was probably just a Metroid game so they could namedrop it to make Fedeartion Force sell better. They probably did not anticipate the backlash they would get from this.

Apparently with Samus Returns and giving Prime 4 the better treatment might be a clue that they ae willing to improve in order to salvage the Metroid IP. With two "stinker" games they certainly can't have any further missteps, or else they could bury this IP completely.

Another possibility would be that Prime 4 is even a bigger dumpster fire than those games named.

This is pure conjecture on my part, of course.

@Lemmy_the_Koopa agreed, Nintendo were completely out of touch what is a Metroid-game. We can see that development as early as Metroid Prime 3 which was quite linear game. I seriously hope that they realized now that the problem was their previous products than the audience. The demand is still there as we can see with the people's reaction and anticipation after they revealed just the logo.

@Zkibu i certainly hope so. fingers crossed

No, that's not true. We knew the old Retro back then when it was new. We knew they were the new Iguana Entertainment that had loads of experience in the first person genre, as they developed classic and popular N64 titles such as the Turok series and Forsaken before Acclaim went bankrupt and Nintendo picked them up.

We know less now. But I don't worry. Even NSTC was able to create one of the best Metroid Prime games (Hunters).
A newly formed Retro has the best connections and all the assets and knowledge to make Metroid Prime 4 work best. It's not like all old Metroid Prime staff is gone, they still have a bunch of veterans.

@Zkibu Are you joking? Prime 3 was literally taking the Fusion route in terms of linearity, and Fusion came out all the way back in 2002 next to Prime 1. Overall still linear and always provides an objective, but how you get there is still up to you.

And Fusion is one of the best games in the series. Prime 3 is also great, and its problems had nothing to do with linearity. It more had to do with Hypermode being extremely unbalanced, causing combat to become a breeze.

@EvilLucario Wasn't trying to attack anyone's favourite game in the series. People can certainly enjoy any game they want. I am just trying to look the data. You are absolutely right the linearity started earlier than Prime 3 I just accidentally forgot the GBA games

The Fusion came out same time as the first Prime game. Prime ended up being more popular even on a failed hardware. Reason for it I believe is despite being a 3D game it catches the better the openess and explorative atmosphere from the original game. I firmly believe that the open world-theme a la BoTW, Ultima Underworld series and original Metroid is really essential for the series. Now even more when Retro don't have to design the around corridors due to hardware limitations.

@Zkibu Saying Nintendo is out of touch and the problem was in their past products (when that literally only applies to Other M and Federation Force) when all the games from Fusion to Prime 3 were widely acclaimed is stretching it very far.

Open world and Metroid also does not mix well. The point of Metroid's design is to lock you out of places initially, only gradually opening up the world as you get stronger. Open world is the antithesis of that.

Games like Dark Souls which has an interconnected world work because there are barely ANY locks in the game.

@EvilLucario so what is the problem then? The audience? I think we can agree that Metroid Prime 3 was popular game, but it was released 12 years ago. So I feel like I am not stretching. All three games after it has been pr and commercial flops (Other M and Federation Forces) and commercial flop (Samus Returns)

Hmm... Dropping the player in an unknown hostile planet where one can explore freely wouldn't suit well for Metroid? Really?

@Zkibu It wouldn't because that's not what Metroid is. Zelda going open world in BotW worked because Zelda had did it back in Zelda 1. BotW is literally just Zelda 1 mixed with modern conventions.

Metroid is based on locks, getting powerups to clear obstacles that once blocked your path. Open world is 'do whatever you want' which you can't do without some sacrifices to what makes Metroid's design work.

Otherwise all we'd be playing is another open world game with a Metroid Prime skin.

@EvilLucario I completely agree with you. Anyone not understanding this, doesn't know what a Metroid game is supposed to be like, or what the premise of it is.

Yeah, as far as I know, the main thing in Metroid is that you unlock the world bit by bit.

Giving you the world already open is like giving you a chewed gum.

I mean, there's a reason why ''Metroidvania'' is considered its own thing. Going open world would completely ignore what the franchise is about.

@EvilLucario well that linear-formula is putting the series on the verge of extinction. Metroid is about the exploration and isolation but somehow without artificial blocks it wouldn't be a Metroid game? What if instead blocks or locks the player would have to get through more dangerous enemies. Getting better in the game and getting better gear would organically unlock the world more bit by bit. That would even add the replay value when skilled and experinced players could tackle the danger zones with lesser gear. Would that be totally crazy?

@ThanosReXXX I am sorry but that is a weird comment. Just trying to have a conversation and being polite

@Zkibu "well that linear-formula is putting the series on the verge of extinction"

Do we have any proof of this? For the longest time a popular opinion was that Prime 3 was better than Prime 2 for many years, only recently turning that around.

What you're describing there is Dark Souls progression. And it is a well-crafted system for Dark Souls, but it clashes with what a Metroid-like game is, locking players out. Hard locks are a core part of a Metroidvania, inciting you to come back once you get a specific upgrade. Dark Souls has no hard locks except for a few story-based things.

Hard locks are some of the things I missed from BOTW, so I would be extremely bummed to see Metroid get rid of them too. Not much matches the feeling I used to get when I first played the Prime games and I finally got a piece of equipment that suddenly opened up a bunch of the earlier areas.

The idea that linear games are somehow worse than open world games is just as stupid as the idea that single player games are worse than multiplayer games, or 2D versus 3D.

@Zkibu Likewise. My comment wasn't meant as weird or impolite, and it also isn't weird at all: it's factual.

Metroid games have always been about a lone space traveler, exploring space stations, and gradually unlocking rooms and upgrades. The corridors also have nothing to do with hardware limits on previous generations hardware (although Retro Studios did very smartly use the corridors to mask the loading of new areas to make the game feel more seamless, but that's another discussion), but with emphasizing that feeling of isolation and loneliness.

When we're going to talk about weird, then that would be doing a BotW-style game with a Metroid skin, seeing as they are two game series with two completely different premises and playing methods.

In Metroid, which is after all Aliens-inspired (movies AND games who, regardless of the now superior technology/hardware also still largely take place in cramped corridors), it is supposed to be somewhat scary, lonely, claustrophobic and boxed off, whereas in the Zelda games, it's all about finding stuff in larger areas, exploring these areas, meeting other characters and so on, which is FAR removed from being lonely and isolated.

In Metroid, the aim is to find upgrades/abilities to be able to unlock the next area, and to find that save room where you can recharge and so on and so on. And every element in the games, both the visuals and the music/sound effects, are also meant to emphasize that lonely isolation, it creates the right atmosphere.

In BotW, sneaking up to a camp of bokoblins, and taking them out, either from afar, with a bit of clever puzzling/strategy, or, if you're strong enough, by just jumping into the middle of them and slashing away, is usually the way to go.

So, two completely different atmospheres, and two completely different ways of playing. If Metroid would be like BotW, then that would actually hurt the IP more than you seem to think, because it just isn't about that, and seeing as I'm certainly not the only one thinking that, as evidenced by the reactions, I think you have a rather deviating opinion.

You certainly have a right to have your own opinion, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean that it is a sure-fire remedy for what you personally think is wrong with the Metroid franchise.

Variety is good~

Not every game needs to follow the same design rules and trends.

On the other hand, if we do get more ORGANIC soft locks (not the ones in Super Metroid where you abuse glitches like the Mockball, although wall jumping isn't a glitch so I can let that slide, but more along the lines of Zero Mission's hidden pathways to skip some stuff), that may be interesting.

More optional powerups inline with something like the Flamethrower from Prime 1 and Sunburst from Prime 2 could also be very nice for exploring off the beaten path.

This. Except for when people start putting pineapple on pizza.