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Topic: Diablo 2 Resurrected

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chipia

@Pizzamorg I'm curious, what is this game lacking from a modern perspective? I played it the last time 10 years ago and I remember it holding up well. What has changed since then?

chipia

YusseiWarrior3000

@Tasuki Neat!
As i said, i'll might check it out someday.
Thanks for the info!

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Pizzamorg

chipia wrote:

@Pizzamorg I'm curious, what is this game lacking from a modern perspective? I played it the last time 10 years ago and I remember it holding up well. What has changed since then?

It is not so much lacking necessarily, it just does a lot of stuff that we've just kinda moved passed from. Like the way consumables and your inventory are managed. How death is managed. And just in the moment to moment gameplay. Your attacks are really slow, the PC version doesn't even have a hotbar (I think the Switch version does), you have a stamina system you need to manage as well. There is a degradation system which might have been in Diablo 3 I can't really remember? But it just feels so oppressive here.

YusseiWarrior3000 wrote:

@Tasuki Neat!
As i said, i'll might check it out someday.
Thanks for the info!

I really like Diablo 3, at least in terms of the place it landed and I hear the Switch port is great.

Edited on by Pizzamorg

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chipia

Pizzamorg wrote:

chipia wrote:

@Pizzamorg I'm curious, what is this game lacking from a modern perspective? I played it the last time 10 years ago and I remember it holding up well. What has changed since then?

It is not so much lacking necessarily, it just does a lot of stuff that we've just kinda moved passed from. Like the way consumables and your inventory are managed. How death is managed. And just in the moment to moment gameplay. Your attacks are really slow, the PC version doesn't even have a hotbar (I think the Switch version does), you have a stamina system you need to manage as well. There is a degradation system which might have been in Diablo 3 I can't really remember? But it just feels so oppressive here.

I don't think these are dated, or even problematic.
Death is handled almost the same as in Dark Souls and Hollow Knight, two popular recent games. Dark Souls and even BOTW have a Stamina meter as well. Also, the Belt actually acts as a hotbar for potions and scrolls.

Of course there is nothing wrong with disliking these things, but they aren't really a symptom of a dated game, given that these elements are still common in high quality games.

Edited on by chipia

chipia

Pizzamorg

chipia wrote:

Pizzamorg wrote:

chipia wrote:

@Pizzamorg I'm curious, what is this game lacking from a modern perspective? I played it the last time 10 years ago and I remember it holding up well. What has changed since then?

It is not so much lacking necessarily, it just does a lot of stuff that we've just kinda moved passed from. Like the way consumables and your inventory are managed. How death is managed. And just in the moment to moment gameplay. Your attacks are really slow, the PC version doesn't even have a hotbar (I think the Switch version does), you have a stamina system you need to manage as well. There is a degradation system which might have been in Diablo 3 I can't really remember? But it just feels so oppressive here.

I don't think these are dated, or even problematic.
Death is handled almost the same as in Dark Souls and Hollow Knight, two popular recent games. Dark Souls and even BOTW have a Stamina meter as well. Also, the Belt actually acts as a hotbar for potions and scrolls.

Of course there is nothing wrong with disliking these things, but they aren't really a symptom of a dated game, given that these elements are still common in high quality games.

(no hotbar for skills, a hotbar for a potion is a problem in itself)

I mean the barrel has no bottom when it comes to gamer complaints. Once upon a time I would have said surely no one would praise a game for being slower, clunkier and more inconvenient than it's counterparts/successors but then I got into Monster Hunter, where many fans will treat streamlining as a crime.

I know there will be a niche for this, especially as nostalgia is such of a hell of a drug, but to me Diablo 2 just feels like a complete relic. Things like stamina, degradation, dragging potions onto a hot bar and having to scavenge them from the map, were all unnecessary barriers to a much faster, fluid and fun ARPG experience so they were rightly excised. Additions, like proper inventory space and management systems and hotbars for skills are just something you can't go back to not having, if you've experienced them in other games.

The APRG genre have moved so far passed and beyond it, I see no value in the title at all, especially as someone who has no nostalgia for the original. If you want Diablo 2 like depth, but in a more modern ARPG framework, I highly recommend picking up Last Epoch on PC.

Edited on by Pizzamorg

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Alaninho

@Pizzamorg I think you have a point in some cases, but the core gameplay is really strong and better than some of the more recent equivalents. The story is strong also. A lot of those QoL improvements you mention are based around people having shorter attention spans and not wanting to carry out the basic tasks.

Alaninho

Zuljaras

@Pizzamorg The core gameplay is so strong and the uniqueness between the classes is also strong that many modern ARPG can't even touch.

Most of them are just mindless mobile looking spammy games.

The ones that really get close to Diablo 2 are Titan Quest and Grim Dawn where both are very similar as some of the same people develop them.

Also can you give some better modern ARPGs so I can check them out and see?

Zuljaras

Pizzamorg

Zuljaras wrote:

@Pizzamorg The core gameplay is so strong and the uniqueness between the classes is also strong that many modern ARPG can't even touch.

Most of them are just mindless mobile looking spammy games.

The ones that really get close to Diablo 2 are Titan Quest and Grim Dawn where both are very similar as some of the same people develop them.

Also can you give some better modern ARPGs so I can check them out and see?

Like I said above, the ARPG I recommend above all else is Last Epoch. I agree in terms of pure character building, Diablo 2 remains one of the best. But Last Epoch retains much of Diablo 2's depth, but just places it in a more modern framework. It can be kinda spammy during deep endgame, but it isn't like Chaosbane or Diablo 3 level of spamfest (although I actually enjoy both of these games in moderation).

Alaninho wrote:

@Pizzamorg I think you have a point in some cases, but the core gameplay is really strong and better than some of the more recent equivalents. The story is strong also. A lot of those QoL improvements you mention are based around people having shorter attention spans and not wanting to carry out the basic tasks.

You may be right, but any barrier, is still a barrier. You may call the tasks basic, but if they can just be skipped and it only improves the experience, there is no real argument to keep it.

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Zuljaras

@Pizzamorg Well this game is yet to launch but it looks damn good and it is built in Unity engine!

Still for now it is PC exclusive

Zuljaras

Pizzamorg

Zuljaras wrote:

@Pizzamorg Well this game is yet to launch but it looks damn good and it is built in Unity engine!

Still for now it is PC exclusive

Yeah, I have been with them over the last couple of years of Early Access and just the amount of improvement seen over that time has been crazy. I believe they are planning a console release once the game is fully released - I might be wrong on this.

Sorry, in terms of console specific ARPGs, they are more my blindspot as I see them more as a PC thing. I think Torchlight 2 is on Switch, not sure what the port is like, but that game is a banger.

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rallydefault

chipia wrote:

@Pizzamorg I'm curious, what is this game lacking from a modern perspective? I played it the last time 10 years ago and I remember it holding up well. What has changed since then?

In my opinion, the gameplay feels clunky after coming from modern ARPGs. Going back to D2's dated movement mechanics just grates me - it lacks the fluidity of 360-degree angles and the immediacy of turning in more modern games. Projectile abilities and spell pathing looks and feels gross - it's disconnected due to being constrained to the grid. Since these things I just described are the majority of what you spend your time doing in the game, it just doesn't translate to a fun experience for me anymore.

I honestly think some people cling to this stuff and say they like it to be part of some "hardcore" internet club or whatever. Not saying you do, just in general. I get that it's fun to rag on D3 and mobile games and games generally being easier these days. Totally, I get it. I do it too, sometimes. But some older games just exist in genres that have progressed a lot in basic feel and feedback, and ARPGs is one of those genres.

Edited on by rallydefault

rallydefault

Pizzamorg

Oh is that why the hit detection feels so wonky in this game? Because it is all confined to an invisible grid?

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chipia

I know that Diablo 1 was on a grid, because it was originally a turn-based roguelike that switched only late in development to realtime combat. I've never heard that about Diablo 2 though.

Edited on by chipia

chipia

rallydefault

@Pizzamorg @chipia
Yea, according to some articles I've read, Venturebeat being one of them. D2 still had characters confined to an invisible grid.

rallydefault

Magician

It's funny how the required Battle.net credentials completely torpedoed my interest in the game.

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Pizzamorg

Magician wrote:

It's funny how the required Battle.net credentials completely torpedoed my interest in the game.

Not sure what it is like in the full game, but the servers during the beta were straight ass. You were playing single player, but were still online so chat would flood the side of the screen with no way to turn it off and I DC'd on multiple occasions. Like why do I need to connect to a server if I am on my own?

rallydefault wrote:

@Pizzamorg @chipia
Yea, according to some articles I've read, Venturebeat being one of them. D2 still had characters confined to an invisible grid.

That explains a lot, I wondered why the hit detection felt so bad. I guess this is why. You aren't actually getting true 360 movement like you do in a modern ARPG.

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DomGC

@Pizzamorg you can play offline, altho I'm not sure if you're able to join someone else's game with those "offline characters", probably not.

Also, reading about this "invisible grid" has me questioning if the paladin's (I hope that's the English class name anyway, probably an easy one to figure out what I'm talking about either way tho) first projectile spell straight up only works on undead - since it's supposed to damage them more, might be an awkward translation in the German script - or if I just have ***** aim

DomGC

rallydefault

@Pizzamorg
Yea, and that's my chief reason for not hopping on this remake. It is and will always be a great game, but the stuff you spend most of the time doing (moving, interacting, firing, etc.) just feels super archaic when coming from current ARPGs. It's just not fun for me anymore.

@DomGC
I'm not sure about that particular spell because I don't play Paladin, but spells can be resisted, I believe. Due to "the grid," as we were saying, a lot of spells and projectiles can also look a bit wonky if you're firing at an enemy at an angle to you, so it may just look like you're missing. It could also be your aim lol

rallydefault

Meteoroid

Diablo 2 is easily the best game in the series and by quite a large margin, especially after the expansion Lord of Destruction, which is included in this. It has such incredible replay value building new characters and testing out a variety of builds. I spent hundreds of hours playing online and offline back in the day. I am definitely double dipping on Switch it if it gets a physical release, my main platform will be PC though.

Meteoroid

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