Topic: Bayonetta 3

@Ryu_Niiyama
The vast majority of controversy I've seen has been because ppl thought Bayo was done and Viola was taking her place.

Hence the reason Kamiya is addressing it.

@JaxonH and if it looked that way to them then again platinum failed to convey that “nope this is a minor setback for this character”. It’s like deaths in comic books. The first time Superman died it shook up so much. And then it was a fake out and he has “died” other times since then. It loses meaning. Instead they from what I understand pulled a passing of the torch for a newly introduced character that a) seems rushed b) makes the supposed death meaningless c) the reaction to Nero in dmc4 (yes I know he didn’t make it but I doubt he was unaware of the reactions) should have shown Kamiya how not to do that. This isn’t like 2 where the death (of Jeanne) functions as a plot vehicle.

Bayonetta 1 did it better. They had a funeral for her and then the curtain is pulled back to let you know she still lives. Honestly I remember thinking it was a poorly done scene for cheap shock value but now it just seems to be a story beat Platinum is obsessed with. They try to retread what worked the first time. I felt the same way during the opening of Bayo 3 when it looks like Jeanne is going to be devoured. I literally went “really? Again?” And yes it is part of Jeanne’s character that she sacrifices/suffers herself for Cereza’s sake but it was getting repetitive to the point that it loses impact.

@Ryu_Niiyama
Eh, I disagree.

I have never cared for the substantive plot of Bayonetta games, and I think that's true for most. Neither of the past games made a lick of sense. And it didn't matter because it was always about the combat. Like story in a Mario game, it's just a vehicle to drive the gameplay.

If anything, this was the first Bayo game I've ever actually understood the plot in and even somewhat cared to follow and enjoy.

I would also say, I'm tired of games not having the gall to go bold. Either happy endings or constant reassurance to the player everything will be fine. I like endings that are bittersweet, or throw you for a loop, or do the unexpected (and as mentioned, going bold is less and less expected nowadays because devs are too chicken to commit). I think a lot of ppl just let their emotions overwhelm their reason. It's Sega's IP. They're not gonna do anything radical with an IP they don't own.

Idk. It's much much ado about nothing, imo. You may have substantive criticisms and that's fine, but most criticism I've seen hasn't been that. It's been either, "Oh no, Viola will replace Bayonetta" or "oh no, Bayonetta is attracted to a dude".

@JaxonH You need to seriously slow down with your aggressive defending of Bayonetta 3. If the game is a flawless experience for you, that's absolutely great. I actually envy you but that doesn't mean the people who are criticizing the game are making stuff up just to trash the game. Just because those things didn't bother you doesn't mean they are irrelevant to many others.
Also, if "Oh no, Viola will replace Bayonetta" isn't a "substantive criticism" then I don't know what is. We are literally talking about swapping out a beloved main character for a divisive new character. And I'm not sure if you have actually seen the ending for yourself by now but the ending goes really hard into the main character swap theory. How often do developers actually chime in to "clarify" the ending of a game? That's pretty telling as is so dismissing people's concerns like that seems pretty disingenuous.

Edit: Just to clarify, I usually really enjoy reading your inputs since it is obious that you are one of the few people who actually plays videogames rather than sit on the Internet complaining about games all day. But talking down any opinion about Bayonetta 3 that doesn't align with yours seems very irrational to me.

That said, didn't Kamiya sort of confirm Bayonetta 4 with that Tweet?

@MajinSoul
Who's being aggressive? I'm having a normal conversation with a long time friend. We can both perfectly handle the other having different views.

I have no idea what you're going on about.

When I say "substantive" I mean things that don't involve implications of the ending. I never said anything about being or not being a "substantive criticism". That's a completely different phrase with another meaning entirely. I'm delineating between an ending being perceived as bad in and of itself, and an ending being perceived as bad because of what it could mean for future entries. Lot of ppl (most I've observed) didn't hate the ending in terms of entertainment value, they hated what they perceived it implied for future entries. There's a difference.

If that's not you, then I'm not talking about you. Move along.

IF it was actually true and they were swapping, of course I'd consider it a valid criticism, even though it's the implication of the ending rather than the ending itself. But that's not the case, I've always contended that's not the case, I've shared videos explaining why that's not the case, I've reasoned logically why it's not the case, and now the creator himself is saying, "thats not the case"

So... whats the beef?

I've been saying this for years, and people always acted like I was nuts/stupid for saying so, but I played those games and genuinely had no idea what the heck was happening.

I don't feel like the Mario comparison is valid, though, as Mario games just have underdeveloped plots. What's there makes sense in the context of the game itself, and it doesn't bore the player with numerous characters and lengthy, dialogue-filled cutscenes.

I'm cool with cutscenes and story if the actual storytelling itself makes sense.

@Ralizah
The comparison doesn't hold in that respect, but it does with respect to story not being a main focus of the game's appeal.

But for real, plot in Bayonetta 3 is still out there and crazy, but it does actually make sense this time. It's very straightforward. For once I'm not confused, which is a nice change. It's still not the driving force, but as always it's a vehicle for the combat. It's a reason for why you're fighting these cool enemies. I wouldn't say the plot is good in Bayonetta 3, but the bombastic cutscenes are very entertaining. And with it actually making sense this time, it does pull me in and make me want to see how everything pans out from chapter to chapter.

This game is nuts though. Ppl praised Nier Automata for having side scrolling and vertical shmup segments? This game has both, and rhythm game bosses, and giant kaiju battles, and so many other wild and crazy gameplay concepts I don't even know where to begin describing it. It's constantly something new. Pulsating in darkness to see similar to x-ray visor in Metroid Prime, but also doing it on the back of a dragon in a side scrolling shmup section lol. It's just nuts. A giant clock tower boss, for goodness sakes. You wouldn't get it unless you saw it for yourself. It's wild

@JaxonH Well, to be fair, NieR Automata does probably the craziest and most unique thing I've ever seen in a video game when you fully complete it. It hits everyone like a ton of bricks going in blind.

Yeah, I don't think Bayonetta 3 needs to have a good plot. I just want to understand what's happening on-screen. tbh the more I learn about this game, the more I like it. They expanded the exploration elements. The focus on combos has been replaced somewhat by the interesting demon slave mechanic. They apparently added a ton of gameplay variety to the mix. They replaced those horrible low-budget cutscenes without animation will fully animated cutscenes. The plot is apparently actually understandable in this one.

@Ralizah
They have a few brief moments with the old static story explanations, but they only do it like 5 times in the entire game, and only for very brief backstory introductions for a new Bayonetta, couple seconds and its over, and then goes to a real cutscene. But they're stylish and brief and more of a nod to previous games than anything else. Cutscenes dominate them 99:1. They're tastefully implemented rather than being the go-to to save money.

But ya, story being easy to follow this time- I think that's why I enjoy the story so much more. Like, it's still a far out concept with multiverse and stuff, but it's not hard to follow. It's very basic stuff. Here's this threat, we've gotta do this to stop them, let's go do it. And that to me is perfect. In past games I just ignored the confusing story and enjoyed the flashy cutscenes for what they were, but in this game I can actually understand and follow what's happening.

There's so many different gameplay concepts too, but they're usually smaller bits within stages or shorter side stages themselves. But Viola actually provides a fundamental change with blocking instead of dodging. I think I prefer dodging. It's one of the reasons Bayo always appealed to me more than DMC, but it is fun to get that alternative playstyle mixed in here and there to keep things fresh. It forces you to constantly be learning and mastering, and it makes you appreciate the dodging more when you have it with Bayo. I also really love the character. She's stylish, funny, endearingly clumsy... can't help but love her. She's the perfect pairing with Bayonetta.

But the biggest part of this game that elevates it to legendary status is the breadth of weapon and summons variety. It's mind blowing. Some of these weapons and summons are so insane and off-the-walls I never would have imagined it being used as a weapon. You can tell the devs just let loose in this game. They were like, I don't care how crazy it is- if it's fun, we're adding it. I don't wanna spoil the awesome weapons and summons. The thrill of discovering them yourself as you progress is part of the fun. But let's just say the spider you swing around as like Spiderman... that's the least crazy thing in this game lol.

Speaking of which, that's also part of the insane fun. The Demon masquerading, which is separate from the slave mechanic. You can summon the giant spider to fight, sure, but you can also transform into the spider (aka masquerade as the spider) and swing around, climb walls, yank yourself forward with web, etc. That's the cherry on top.

If you have save data for the first two games, you unlock their entire combo trees in the menu, which is nice. Because all 3 main weapons have different combos. If you really liked the Love Is Blue guns with the wicked weave combos from Bayo2, you can use them. If you prefer Scarborough Fair with the original game combos, you can do that too. Or use Color My World, the new purple guns from Bayo3. Or don't use any of them. Stick with the spider yo-yo's and whatever else you want.

Oh, that's another thing, you can equip two different weapons, each with their own demon masquerade attached and integrated combos, and switch between them on the fly with L. You can also equip three different summons and switch between on the fly with D-pad. They will serve as your combo finishers, counters and in the slave mechanic.

I've also found the difficulty much more balanced. There have been some pretty intense challenge rooms toward the end of the game where I died at least 7-8 times before beating it. But I remember in Bayo 1 and 2, I'd die 30+ times, often not even being able to beat them.

The whole game is just fun. Unlike the first two, this game is super fun to explore as the environments are bigger, and virtually everything is destructible. Everything. Even buildings on the side, you can smash their windows. Trees, lamp posts, fences, cars, statues... all of it can be destroyed for currency and lollipop crafting materials. So it's super addictive to just run around destroying everything in sight as you search for puzzles, secrets and hidden challenges.

Beat the game.

Wow. That ending is actually pretty fire. And the song that plays with the softer ballet dance as the credits roll, it's very moving. I've never played a game where I liked the credits so much.

This really makes me want a Viola spinoff now. I know they were gonna make a Jeanne spinoff. Really hope they come through with that. It would help expand the franchise and lore. And I think Bayonetta has earned that at this point. Then again, they may just keep her as a mainstay in the next game, which I'd not only be on with, I actually want. Going back to just traditional Bayo would feel a bit bland now by comparison.

@JaxonH same. It was an amazingly touching ending that I'm glad happened. It was also pretty dope thinking the game was over and the end credits gameplay just kept coming. I don't understand the negative feedback regarding the ending.

@NintendoByNature
Ikr? Everyone is free to their opinion of course, but suffice it to say I can't relate. I absolutely adored it and think it was a perfect way to cap off such an excellent game. And tbh, I take back what I said earlier about the plot. After having beaten the game.... ya. Ya definitely. I enjoyed the story in this game. It was wacky and crazy and not to be taken too seriously, but for the first time ever, I can say I enjoyed the story in a Bayonetta game. It's not Uncharted or anything, but it was entertaining.

Have you tried the new Jeanne mini game that gets unlocked or the Witch Trials that gets unlocked after beating the game? Also Umbran Climax difficulty, but ha! I haven't even done Hard mode yet. It also said Jeanne was unlocked as a playable character but I haven't tried that yet.

There's supposedly a secret level or something if you buy Rodin's old book for 4100 Halos, then find the 3 hidden keys throughout the game... I'm working on that now.

@JaxonH And that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am only going on some of the reactions I've read and the way that I myself process narratives.

Like I said I quit playing so I haven't gotten very far at this point. I will hopefully have time during the holiday break to play. But I have a server migration that has gone to heck in a handbasket so I will be toiling away on that until its done. I hate legacy proprietary software.

Already down for $46 on Amazon NA. Check it out people!

@JaxonH it doesn't make sense and they updated Bayonetta 2 with new text in the introduction to try and retcon a multiverse into the story. Bayonetta 1 isn't Bayonetta 2, what a giant load of rubbish. It's like this:
Plot twist. I'm an alien possessing a human to type this comment. I'll be back in a few hours to edit my original comment and leave some clues about how I'm an alien possessing a human. Perfectly explained twist.

@sirmrguitardude
The games have never made sense. Almost nobody cares if they "retcon" stuff because it's all a bunch of nonsensical malarkey anyways. Story is just there to provide some entertaining cutscenes and give you a reason for fighting.

They'll do it again next game too. It's Bayonetta, not Uncharted.

Gameplay first. They will NEVER sacrifice gameplay for "story" in a game that lives and dies by its gameplay. Having Bayo1 and Bayo2 versions to play as made the game better, and if that means retconning them as different then so be it. Who cares.

@JaxonH because you didn't follow the story of the 1st 2 games doesn't mean other fans didn't. And if you haven't notice the outrage the ending of 3 generated then I don't know how you missed it. Plus Bayo 1 is the best when it comes to gameplay. I disagree with essentially everything you say.

No I'm gonna agree, I don't know why anyone cares about the story of these games. Characters maybe, the story, no. I would've had a way better time with 2 if I had just skipped most of the cutscenes after the prologue tbh (and if I didn't bother with reading the lore).

It's like if an NES games' story got needlessly dragged out with "worst written parts of any Final Fantasy" inserted at random.

In the interests of building some common ground, can we all agree that the rock/paper/scissors battles are a bit crap?