Also I'm not saying 3 is an ass of a game, go play it if your going through em, because I think the action scenes are the best in the series (Haven't played 4 yet) But the game play bogged all this down, Killing the mood for me in a lot of areas.
TIme to go play 4 baby! oh and BTW half of that rant up there, is because of shipGraveyard, Screw Shipgraveyard.
Piggybacking off of this, rather than replying directly.
My unpopular opinion is that no game is truly timeless, in the same way certain films or albums or whatever else are. Whether it be controls, design sensibilities, graphics or something else, there is always an expiry on a game. Things can certainly date on other mediums, but because gaming is active, there comes a point where trying to interact it is just not enjoyable any more but in other mediums, there can always be something to love forever with no barrier to engagement.
And off the back of this, this is why I get so annoyed by games like Diablo Resurrected. Yes, it might play exactly like it did two decades ago, but you know how that plays? Bad. Just because you liked it two decades ago and it is authentic, doesn't mean you can't admit the game has aged like milk, as almost every game does.
I think people just need to really let go of their nostalgia, we can admit games are worse in a lot of ways these days in terms of bloat and predatory monetisation, but mechanically games only get better each and every year. Please don't force developers to make us go backwards, reembracing things we left behind decades ago for good reason.
@Pizzamorg Actually your opinion is in the perfect thread!
But the numbers don't lie. So little players "left" those games you speak of.
Gamers prefer older games with bad controls, graphics or length instead of the most modern, primary online, shiny crap that we are getting.
That is why most modern games get so much criticism while the old ones are favored. Nostalgia most certainly! But they earned it while in 30 years nobody will have nostalgia for 80% of the modern games.
To be flawed and yet loved so much is a great gaming achievement don't you think?
@Pizzamorg Actually your opinion is in the perfect thread!
But the numbers don't lie. So little players "left" those games you speak of.
Gamers prefer older games with bad controls, graphics or length instead of the most modern, primary online, shiny crap that we are getting.
That is why most modern games get so much criticism while the old ones are favored. Nostalgia most certainly! But they earned it while in 30 years nobody will have nostalgia for 80% of the modern games.
To be flawed and yet loved so much is a great gaming achievement don't you think?
But I think the "numbers" here are useless, because people are either slaves to nostalgia or blinded by it. You aren't getting an objective measurement of who still enjoys playing these games today and isn't coloured by some sort of nostalgic tint.
You can appreciate a game for what it achieved in it's time without pretending the game is still this masterpiece to play today, when it most likely is a clunky, janky, mess.
Please don't force developers to make us go backwards, reembracing things we left behind decades ago for good reason.
There is some truth to this but most major gaming companies threw out the baby with the bathwater, so there's not necessarily a modern equivalent in the first place. Most obvious example for me is Megaman Legends, a hilariously dated game that's still more fun than 1000 more polished more modern games, because those more polished games aren't actually doing things I like in the same way.
Though I'd also argue that looking at things as such a linear "newer = better" way is both boring and often untrue for reasons outside of ignoring dated game design no one likes. For that matter, enough games basically decide to be worse despite their own capabilities for reasons. Like every game that's ruined by being turned into a grind fest (that conveniently also has a store to buy things to get past the grind). Or those FPS campaigns from 10-15 years ago. I played Resistance 1 a while ago, and its overly linear nature makes it often feel nearly as dated as games a decade older to me.
Please don't force developers to make us go backwards, reembracing things we left behind decades ago for good reason.
There is some truth to this but most major gaming companies threw out the baby with the bathwater, so there's not necessarily a modern equivalent in the first place. Most obvious example for me is Megaman Legends, a hilariously dated game that's still more fun than 1000 more polished more modern games, because those more polished games aren't actually doing things I like in the same way.
Though I'd also argue that looking at things as such a linear "newer = better" way is both boring and often untrue for reasons outside of ignoring dated game design no one likes.
I appreciate in practice it is more complex than a forum post can really convey. I guess much like how horror fans may be fed up of endless remakes, I am worried we are going in the same direction with companies cashing on basically releasing ancient titles with a new lick of paint and selling old glitches and lack of quality of life improvements as some sort of amazing feature. And people just gobble that ***** up and then act confused when companies are scamming us more and more frequently and more and more aggressively.
And like I said originally, there are for sure ways things are worse now, but in terms of moment to moment experiences, this only gets refined more and more over time. You go back and say play a shooter from 2005 and it feels floaty and weird. You back to 1995 and it controls so awkwardly you can barley even play it. And I am sure these things will happen with existing games in like thirty years too. But that doesn't mean we'll miss when every game was monetised up to it's eyeballs as well, I hope.
@Pizzamorg Games are art and for me they age like paintings. Some are always nice to play again.
I play games to enjoy myself Nostalgia or not I get enjoyment and that is the most important thing for me.
Most modern games are absolute trash even if they have the most perfect control schemes or the best ray tracing. And I mean most not all.
There are some modern masterpieces for me like Marvel's Spider-Man, God of War (2018), Skyrim, Bloodborne, Resident Evil Village, Resident Evil 7. But as you can see those games are loved by most gamers today. And those are the little 20% I told you about. The rest is microtransaction crapfest that has zero gaming value
Maybe because of that most people put on their Nostalgia glasses and enjoy gaming again
PS: Half-Life 2 which is quite old has better controls and better feel than most shooters that came out recently That is what I call a timeless masterpiece
@Pizzamorg Games are art and for me they age like paintings. Some are always nice to play again.
I play games to enjoy myself Nostalgia or not I get enjoyment and that is the most important thing for me.
Most modern games are absolute trash even if they have the most perfect control schemes or the best ray tracing. And I mean most not all.
There are some modern masterpieces for me like Marvel's Spider-Man, God of War (2018), Skyrim, Bloodborne, Resident Evil Village, Resident Evil 7. But as you can see those games are loved by most gamers today. And those are the little 20% I told you about. The rest is microtransaction crapfest that has zero gaming value
Maybe because of that most people put on their Nostalgia glasses and enjoy gaming again
PS: Half-Life 2 which is quite old has better controls and better feel than most shooters that came out recently That is what I call a timeless masterpiece
That is cool if you feel that way, but just saying "everyone thinks exactly like me" is really cringe. Show some data that is objectively separated from nostalgia tinting.
@Pizzamorg What about Pokemon, where the opposite is true? The older games are good, but the newer games aren't. I can say this without being influenced by Nostalgia, since the only older games I grew up with in the series were Black and White, so going back and playing everything aside from Gen 1, I can say that gens 3 and 4 are better than Gens 7 and 8, which feel soulless and incomplete.
Games can still be good when you go back and play them, while others were made in such a way that makes them horrid years down the line. In Sun and Moon's case, I legit can't even make myself play them anymore, despite them being relatively new, all because the way they made the game is worse than how they used to make these games.
And like I said originally, there are for sure ways things are worse now, but in terms of moment to moment experiences, this only gets refined more and more over time.
This I mostly agree with. Games are often fantastic today in terms of moment to moment gameplay. It's just whether or not they can (or are allowed) to make something worthwhile surrounding that gameplay.
@Pizzamorg What about Pokemon, where the opposite is true? The older games are good, but the newer games aren't. I can say this without being influenced by Nostalgia, since the only older games I grew up with in the series were Black and White, so going back and playing everything aside from Gen 1, I can say that gens 3 and 4 are better than Gens 7 and 8, which feel soulless and incomplete.
Games can still be good when you go back and play them, while others were made in such a way that makes them horrid years down the line. In Sun and Moon's case, I legit can't even make myself play them anymore, despite them being relatively new, all because the way they made the game is worse than how they used to make these games.
There is an oversaturation for Pokemon games, which makes the difference. I think if you waited like a decade and didn't release a Pokemon game, then just released a rerelease of Blue with no changes beyond some tweaked graphics, people would eat that ***** up.
@Pizzamorg I really do! I love games so damn much even so that I am trying to make one!
But I will not employ devs to stop making remakes, rehashes or ports. I think the demand is the king here If the majority wants it they should have it!
I can't give you any official structured data as I only speak from myself and by observing public forums, videos etc.
My unpopular opinion is that no game is truly timeless
Tetris [drops mic]
Damn you got me on that one. Pong too.
I guess my caveat, is no game is timeless from like the late 80s which was made at the height of the tech of that moment. If it is as simple as Tetris or Pong, I guess they are technically timeless.
@Pizzamorg it is weird. Games age rapidly while I watch silent movies that (to me at least) still hold up. But i think it's not so much a timelessness as a patina. It's their age that makes them more enjoyable, more interesting in a way.
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@Pizzamorg it is weird. Games age rapidly while I watch silent movies that (to me at least) still hold up. But i think it's not so much a timelessness as a patina. It's their age that makes them more enjoyable, more interesting in a way.
I just think the difference is because one is a passive and one is an active medium.
You can appreciate the German Expressionism of the 100 year old plus Dr. Caligari, even though you know it isn't a touch (from a technical standpoint, I mean) on say a modern blockbuster, which is able to build entire universes in a computer because nothing is physically stopping you watching that film.
But if you play say an early 3d platform, with awful camera controls and you're constantly missing the jumps or falling off the edge because you're fighting the camera, you're being actively blocked from being able to enjoy that text in the way it was on release. That doesn't mean you can't appreciate what it achieved at the time, but you aren't going to enjoy fighting with that camera, in the same way you may genuinely still be genuinely captivated by Lugosi's Dracula, in that fairly static 30s film.
I also think games being dated can help them in the long run sometimes.
Blaster Master Zero is a pseudo-remake of the original Blaster Master. It is clearly better than the original, sometimes in very obvious ways. But I played Blaster Master as an NES game (not during the NES days or anything remotely like that, just to clarify), and as NES game it is significantly better than the vast majority of that library and stands out as an interesting, fun, unique early example of a Metroidvania. And thus I like it more than Blaster Master Zero, which is an indie game and comes across as just another very good retro throwback indie game (just with more emphasis on being like a very specific retro game). That context fundamentally changes what I get from it.
Or games like Out of This World/Another World that I honestly enjoyed more in a historical way rather than a fun video game way (and I'm not convinced I would've loved this game at the time as a video game, beyond perhaps sheer novelty)
@Pizzamorg there's much deeper conversation here, that I'm not prepared for. Suffice it to say I guess I never saw movies, books, music, or video games as passive mediums because they all require the participant to interpret. It's just in the case of video games that interpretation involves motor skills.
I guess creating music requires motor skills, maybe video games are more similar to that? (I'm thinking outloud here)
In any case, using the movie comparison since its still fresh in my brain, someone being able to enjoy a silent movie by overlooking the lack of sound is analogous to someone being able to enjoy a 3d platformer with a fussy camera (maybe. I'm still thinking out loud here lol). Both exist because of limitations that existed during their respective time periods. Although crummy 3d camera controls really do suck 😑
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