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Topic: Everything Star Wars discussion thread| How you doing, you old pirate?

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Zeldafan79

I'm still trying to figure out what everybody's problem with the last Jedi was. The Luke being all negative thing? The Finn and Rose sidequest? Snoke basically being a nobody? Super Leia? All of the above?

Look I'm not sure what movie you guys were watching but that movie seemed pretty darn star warsy to me and i should know. Been a fan since the 70's. I had a good time.

I guess everybody wanted luke to take that lightsaber from rey and be all like, yeah let's go fight the bad guys and save the galaxy! Then during the final battle he'd come whooshing along in his X wing and say yeeeeeeee hawwwww! Take that you first order scum! Pew pew pew! kaboom! Kapow! Blammo!

Luke did say this wasn't going to go the way you think. You were warned.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" Optimus Prime

gcunit

Zeldafan79 wrote:

Luke did say this wasn't going to go the way you think. You were warned.

Sure, because prior warning makes everything good.

The problem with the Sequel Trilogy so far (largely to do with The Last Jedi, because it covered it specifically) is that the entire story of Kylo Ren (and Luke Skywalker's exile) is explained by a short flashback (x3) that shows a master and uncle, who happens to be a galactic hero of 3 films btw, turn on his nephew because of... reasons (insert vague mutterings about Snoke - you know, Snoke, that uber force user we still know nothing about) while he slept.

George Lucas got criticism for Anakin's turn to the dark side being too sudden, and he made 3 films explaining it. Ben Solo's turn got 3 minutes, and we still don't know why his relationship with his parents broke down.

The entire sequel trilogy really hinges on that development, and it was portrayed in an unsatisfying manner. That is why the Luke Skywalker we got in the first 2 acts of The Last Jedi was hard to accept.

It's entirely possible that Ep.IX can mitigate that by adding further backstory, but for now The Last Jedi appears to underperform in it's role to justify the characters’ situations.

Edited on by gcunit

You guys had me at blood and semen.

What better way to celebrate than firing something out of the pipe?

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

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FullMetalWesker

@Zeldafan79 - Dunno about anyone else, but I just found it to be a bit of a mess tonally. It's like they had a bunch of ideas that were just thrown in haphazardly without much thought put into whether it worked as an overall narrative. Sure, there were some ideas revolving around failure that I thought worked well, but then there was stuff like the 'yo mamma' joke Poe made at the start of the film, along with some character arcs which fell flat imo. Also, some of the traditionally great aspects of Star Wars (exotic aliens, locations and ships, engaging space and lightsaber battles etc.) weren't really present or were underwhelming in TLJ, which didn't really help matters.

FullMetalWesker

Zeldafan79

Say what? Yo mamma joke? Don't remember that. I just remember poe acting like the radio wasn't working and saying hux had an urgent message about his mother. Oh and what about all those creatures in the casino and the whole canto bight segment that everybody hated for some reason? Not exotic or full of aliens enough for you? That opening space battle was pretty cool if you ask me.

Okay i would have preferred a straight up duel between Rey and Kylo or Luke and kylo but the team up thing was a nice surprise honestly. Should have lasted a bit longer though.

I will say the force awakens certainly flows better but ain't it funny how TFA was too samey and TLJ too different? It's just impossible to please these rabid fans who think everything should happen the way they've already imagined it in their minds.

I've seen some terrible movies in my time (howard the duck) but i really can't say that about TLJ. I've even liked some movies that were critically panned like Weekend at bernies 2. I kid you not. I guess i have a weird sense of humor and i like a bit of nonsense now and then. As for star wars i've only really disliked the christmas special and those ewok movies.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" Optimus Prime

FullMetalWesker

@Zeldafan79 - Yeah, that was the joke; I don't really remember the details, but I do remember it seemed a bit juvenile, so I can buy it being a 'yo momma' joke.
Were there that many though? I remember quite a few humans, and a couple of aliens (like the little guy they used for a BB-8 joke) but not that many.
That said, it seems I've completely forgotten about the rest of the aliens, because I just quickly re-watched the Canto Bight intro and it turns out there actually were a few there, so fair point on that one (at least as far as aliens go, locales, Canto Bight is a bit lackluster when compared to Naboo, Kamino, or Utapau)
As for the opening space battle, I kinda enjoyed it up until the paper mache bombers joined in, then it just got a bit too ridiculous for me.

I actually like how they handled Kylo vs Luke, it's probably one of my favourite scenes from the whole film. But the Kylo/Rey vs Guards scene didn't really seem to do much for me beyond show off some admittedly impressive visuals and some fight choreography.

Well, to be fair, just because they don't want one extreme doesn't mean they want the other extreme.

Does that include the animated Clone Wars film?
Also, I personally wouldn't call it terrible, but at the same time I wouldn't really call it a good film overall either. It could've been, but too many wasted moments and characters keep it from doing so imo.

FullMetalWesker

DarkRula

Biggest problem of the sequel trilogy for me is that it feels like it doesn't do enough to set up what's happening, instead relying on tie-in novels to explain things - and even the novelisations. This fleet of the Resistance in the latest trailer, for example, will probably have no setup within the film itself beyond maybe one or two lines. And yes, you could say why would you need to show them building themselves back up? Except... it's kind of a major plot point considering the end of The Last Jedi.

And as mentioned on the last page, the relationship between Kylo and Luke is pretty much non-existent within the films. Kind of telling that the novelisation of The Last Jedi got delayed to include some of that.

They're still good films to watch, with a mostly solid narrative between the two already released, but the reasons are there as to why they aren't great. Not that the overly-negative responses are warranted with just tiny bits being picked apart as to why the whole film sucks.

Edited on by DarkRula

DarkRula

3DS Friend Code: 4253-3513-2745 | Nintendo Network ID: DarkRula

Cotillion

Zeldafan79 wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out what everybody's problem with the last Jedi was. The Luke being all negative thing? The Finn and Rose sidequest? Snoke basically being a nobody? Super Leia? All of the above?

I'm someone who loves Star Wars and I enjoyed TFA. I knew it was a rehash on ANH, more or less, but it was a new Star Wars for a new generation, so I was okay with that. TFA would be their ANH. Rogue One, while a bit faulty there at the beginning, was overall a very enjoyable movie. I quite liked it and seeing some other parts of the Star Wars Universe. Then, TLJ happened.
It wasn't just a bad Star Wars movie for me, it was just a really bad movie. Plot threads started in the previous film were just thrown out because Rian Johnson wanted to. There was literally an outline for this film he just threw away.
Main bad guy was never explained and killed off mid-trilogy, so now they have to fill the void by bringing back Palpatine (imagine if the Emperor was killed off in ESB).
There's no character progression that makes sense. Kylo Ren, I still don't know what his motivations are. We got one quick flashback. Rey is somebody important, no she's nobody, no maybe she is somebody. She also has no depth. She has no weakness, no flaws, is an expert force user with little to no training. She just appears to be there to fill the hero spot. Rose and Finn, that whole side quest was meaningless.
Holdo...this was just terrible. Tells no one her plans and gets mad at anyone who questions her because she seems to not have any plans. Yes, lets go to into battle and tell no one who needs to know whats happening. Captain Phasma, useless filler.
Using hyperspace, a ship that can destroy armadas has completely rewritten in-universe physics. Auto pilot ships could do this now, so space battles are meaningless as this is now always an option.
Luke....ugh. I could get on board with his negativity. The Dark Side was all but wiped out and here it is again. It will always be a thing and it's an endless battle. But....his Father turned to the Dark side, killed off the Jedi, murdered countless amounts of people, helped run an Empire of oppression and Luke always felt he could turn him back, that there was always a glimmer of hope. Meanwhile his nephew has a minor stench of the dark side, so Luke goes to murder him in his sleep? This isn't negativity, it's extremist. Redemption is only for immediate family, I guess. Extended family gets the saber.
People criticized TFA for copying ANH, but this one went to such extreme in one case they had to actually add the line of dialogue that "it's salt" to differentiate itself from being a Hoth clone.
And the entire movie was based on the premise of the slowest chase scene ever. But yet, Finn and Rose can come and go from it? Why can't the rebels all just leave? Why doesn't the First Order come and go like that and just move to the rebels spot? Most movies have plotholes, but the entire premise of this movie is one.
The biggest problem is that it was very clear there is no overall arc here. Whoever is doing the movie just does what he wants. They rebooted ideas in the middle of the trilogy and there is no progression nor development to care about. Luke had to train, he was a nobody. He had flaws and not a superhero right out the gate. He lost to vader the first time. Likewise Anakin in the prequels, while very strong in the force, was flawed and not a superhero immediately. He lost his first real fight against the Dark Side when he went after Dooku and it cost him his arm, he lost so badly. Rey has beaten Ren twice now, effortlessly, the first time with zero training. How are we supposed to feel tension about their fight in the 3rd movie?

Basically it feels like Rian Johnson, who was in charge of this film, went on a fanboy tangent. Like when you say "can you imagine if this happened" and he just did it, whether it actually made sense or not. And so it feels like they're making these movies backwards by throwing whatever they want on screen then scrambling to explain it afterwards. Which is a big reason I'm not particularly looking forward to the next one, let alone be excited for it. Abrams is going to have to make sense of everything that TLJ threw away and didn't take the time to develop. They shouldn't have to retcon within this trilogy to explain it.

Edited on by Cotillion

Cotillion

Dezzy

FullMetalWesker wrote:

@Dezzy - I can understand thinking they made Luke worse, but what did they do to Han and Leia to make them worse for you?

Well they were less ruined than Luke. But they were both still very disappointing versions of their prior selves. The original Star Wars was so idealistic in its themes and how the character stories played out. You really get the sense that these are heroic, quasi-religious figures who had achieved something great. Luke especially is a kind of messianic figure.

Just the idea that it's 30 years later and they basically went on to do nothing else important. The rest of their lives were essentially nothing but failure. It's just not something I need to see in a fantasy series.

I wanted something like the original extended universe. They all went on to have interesting lives.

It's dangerous to go alone! Stay at home.

Zeldafan79

It will be interesting to see after everybody has watched the new movie if it will change anyones feelings on the trilogy as a whole. You may get a whole new perspective on things.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" Optimus Prime

FullMetalWesker

@Dezzy - To be fair, Leia founded the resistance movement that will likely end up being what stops the Empire from coming back, so at least she did something (and Han in the canon EU helped Chewie liberate Kashyyk). But yeah, I kinda get what you're saying; the new films don't really do much with their characters, besides using them as mentor figures, and for nostalgia. That said, their actual characters weren't really changed that much (from the OT films); yes, Han does go back to being a smuggler, but he's still the same guy we saw in ROTJ, just a little older. Same with Leia (though admittedly, it's hard to tell from the films alone given how little they gave her). They may not have managed to achieve legendary feats, but at least the essence of their characters remained (mostly) the same.

@Zeldafan79 - While that's certainly a possibility (If Episode III is anything to go by) and I'm more enthusiastic now having watched the new trailer than I was prior, I'm still a bit sceptical that J.J will pull this off, especially given what he's known for (setting up mystery box scenarios and never resolving them) and what he has to work with (A somewhat disjointed story trilogy).

FullMetalWesker

Dezzy

@FullMetalWesker

Well yeah but they'd wiped out most of the empire at the end of RotJ. Both the second Death Star and the Executor (Super Star Destroyer) were destroyed in the Battle of Endor.

So giving her credit for creating the resistance seems kinda backwards. They deserve extreme discredit for allowing the First Order to arise, from a point where the rebels were completely in charge.

Edited on by Dezzy

It's dangerous to go alone! Stay at home.

DarkRula

@Dezzy But it wasn't Leia personally who let them rise. She was the one campaigning against the reduction of the New Republic fleet while Mon Mothma was adamant that it wasn't needed. She was proven to be right when the First Order did indeed rise, and it was she who led the secret underground movement against the New Republic's wishes until they realised it was needed but still refused to play a part aside from secret funding.

DarkRula

3DS Friend Code: 4253-3513-2745 | Nintendo Network ID: DarkRula

FullMetalWesker

@Dezzy - To be fair, they were only part of the team that led to the second Death Star's destruction, they didn't single-handedly do it themselves. Everyone who was there, from Lando and Wedge, to Luke and Vader, to the Ewoks and even the random A-Wing pilot who kamikazed into the Executor, everyone played a part in that victory.
Not really. It's not really mentioned in the films, but the novel Bloodlines makes it clear that Leia had been actively fighting the FO from the moment she realised they were out there (in fact, she was one of the first who found out about them). The only problem was: 1. They were hiding away in the Unknown Regions, meaning no-one outside a few imperial sympathisers knew they were out there until a few years prior to Ep VII; and 2. Even after she found out about the FO, the New Republic refused to believe her, forcing her to create the Resistance so that at least something was being done to stop them.

FullMetalWesker

Zeldafan79

Only real confusing aspects about the rise of skywalker are...

1. How the heck is the Palpatine back? I'm 99% certain he is deader than bantha crap! Unless he's a ghost.
2. How could there possibly be anything left of the 2nd death star? That thing was blown into space dust!

I guess Disney just said eh it makes no sense but whatever. People love member berries!
Member tie fighters? Member the millenium falcon? Member the emperor? I member!

If nothing else does nostalgia will fill those seats! Regardless if it makes no fricken sense what so ever.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" Optimus Prime

FullMetalWesker

@Dezzy - TLJ probably got points with critics for being 'different', 'socially relevant' and having 'poignant themes', things this film probably doesn't have (I wouldn't be surprised if the writers/director were too busy trying to ensure the plot points were sorted out to bother with character work and themes this film should have). Having read some of the summaries, 'uninteresting' seems to be the main criticism leveled against it so far, so take that as you will.

FullMetalWesker

Dezzy

@FullMetalWesker

Yeah you're probably right. The weird social messaging in that movie, like "heroism is bad" and "rich people are evil" probably does appeal to the kind of people who are professional movie reviewers. I'll never understand why anyone thinks you should just clumsily insert it into a fantasy blockbuster though, when it has no inherent connection to the plot whatsoever.

It's dangerous to go alone! Stay at home.

Octane

@Dezzy I liked Rise of the Skywalker more than The Last Jedi, way more. I'll have to let it sink in and watch it a couple more times, but it's not bad. Kinda the best they could do with how disastrous the plot was at the end of TLJ.

Octane

iKhan

A lot of what I'm reading about is what I feared in that this movie was contained a lot of "apologizing" for The Last Jedi. Which is frustrating because I don't think TLJ has a lot to apologize for aside from poor pacing in the Canto Bight arc. This was my primary concern upon seeing the title and seeing that J.J. was back, and frankly I might not even go watch the movie anymore.

Honestly the entire sequel trilogy has caused me to lose a lot of respect for J.J. Abrams. He really does not do well with original material at all. And when he does try to introduce something new, he seems to subscribe to the "plant the mystery now, solve it later" philosophy that I find rarely works well. I think I would have preferred to at least have had Rian Johnson write the story so that we could get some level of continuity.

Edited on by iKhan

Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F

Dezzy

@Octane

How have you seen it already? Where do you live?

It's dangerous to go alone! Stay at home.

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