Topic: Anime & Manga (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

I've decided to move the discussion between Link-Hero and me to this thread since I didn't want to derail my Digimon Survive thread.

Even the Pokémon dub was bad too IMO. I grew up with the American dub, but when I got into anime when I was 19, I got curious about what the original Japanese Pokémon anime was like. Good god, I fell in love with it because Satoshi felt far more mature and serious as a Pokémon trainer just because of his voice acting alone. It was like watching an entirely different show.

This was especially obvious when you compare Pokémon XY's dub, when 4Kids have long lost its rights to Pokémon before it went bankrupt (RIP). I have my problems with 4Kids, but at least their theme songs were amazing. The original "Pokémon Theme" is still iconic even to a Digifan like me, the Pokerap is still so addictive to listen to compared to Saban's god-awful Digi-Rap. "This Dream" by David Rolfe from Pokémon: Advanced Challenge is still easily my favorite Pokémon theme song of all time. But when Pokémon USA/The Pokémon Company took over, you could easily notice the awful slip in quality in their music. They became these very forgettable and generic pop songs that barely stand out, lacking David Rolfe's hot-blooded spirit that excited a whole generation of children when they woke up Saturday mornings.

And it's not just the opening theme songs - the soundtracks by TPC were god-awful compared to 4Kids too. I prefer the original anime soundtrack any day, but I love that 4Kids kept the original soundtracks in the dub, particularly the instrumental version of OK!, the third season anime opening, in the Ash vs. Gary Johto battle. TPC removed all of that once they took over. The difference was most glaring in XY/XYZ. There was a comparison video that was taken down by TPC a long time ago showing just how god-awful the difference between the dub and the Japanese version of the anime was in the Ash vs. Diantha. Thankfully, someone managed to reupload it and it hasn't been taken down yet:

Look at how different the battles felt! The original Japanese version made it more intense thanks to the instrumental version of the amazing opening theme (XY&Z by Rica Matsumoto) pumping your blood up with its rock & roll music. It felt like I was in the battlefield with Satoshi and felt that burning urge to win when I heard that music. The TPC dub with its relaxing generic music, on the other hand, made me fell asleep. Are we having a Pokémon battle or are we having a relaxing picnic?

I still remember the first time I saw Ash/Satoshi fought Shouta (Sawyer in the dub), how the epic music made a late 20s grown man like me feel that adrenaline and wanting to get up and shout, how Matsumoto's passionate singing made really emphasized how exciting Pokémon battles can become if it takes place in real time without the limitations of turn-based combat. The way Matsumoto sung the theme to the battle with such seriousness and intensity made a children's Pokémon battle feel like it has higher stakes than what a Pokémon battle should have. I couldn't find a decent clip of that full battle on YouTube to show the impassioned feeling I got watching the battle, but feel free to go look it up yourself if you ever get the opportunity to watch the anime. It's easily the best season of the Pokémon anime for me because it contains the best choregraphed Pokémon battles I've seen in terms of the background music.

Fun fact: did you know Satoshi's actress sung almost all the Pokémon openings herself? I don't know if she's still doing it nowadays, but up till XYZ, she was the one who sung the adrenaline-pumping theme songs that got kids excited to stand up and cheer for the underdog protagonist in spite of his flaws. Big props to the actress for her devotion, doing over 20 years of voice acting for a single character without retiring. That's how serious Japanese voice actors/actresses are: they would stick to a single role for decades (including the voice actress for Taichi and Agumon in Digimon) because they knew how important the character means to those kids. They wouldn't just go seek a new gig because "kids shows are dumb and I want a bigger role for my career." I love how Matsumoto's voice acting sounded so sincere and passionate, like she didn't try to diminish the role in a dumbed down way just because it's a kids show. In fact, almost every voice actor you hear in the above clip felt so passionate, like they took Pokémon battles seriously; the American voice actors felt like they were half-asleep reading the script.

That's one reason, yeah, but it's also because people thought it was a rip-off of Pokémon, when Pokémon itself was a rip-off of other mon franchises like, oh I don't know, Shin Megami Tensei, anyone? It was older than Pokémon in terms of creature capturing, and even that was probably "ripped off" from some other older game.

Plus, a lot of Pokémon and Digimon fans agreed that the Digimon anime have always felt like it contained a more mature tone, containing heavy subjects of death and even religious references of angels and the Devil. That might explain why it didn't win the targeted audience over since they were 7-10 year olds. Anime, even those targeted at younger children, always had a strange maturity in them that made me wonder if Japanese kids are just more receptive to darker and more mature stories like those without being scared.

I think such misunderstandings of what Digimon is supposed to be like has always caused its downfall. Just look at Digimon Survive: a bunch of people who failed to do their research on how it's supposed to be a visual novel rant about how it's a visual novel.

But when all things are said and done, I thought that the Pokémon anime, the Japanese version, has its merits. I loved Pokémon XYZ, and I loved watching Satoshi's growth throughout the ages, how he went from eighth place to runner-up in the Pokémon League. I just think that it's an entirely different genre of storyline from what Digimon has to offer in terms of emotional catharsis. The Pokémon anime's appeal for me is that heat of battle and the adrenaline you feel, while Digimon's appeal is the tragedy, the adventure and the drama making me feel the highs and lows of real life. I think it's easy to see why I prefer one over the other.

@Maxenmus I will have to try the dub, as xy is my favorite Pokémon anime, and I watched it all subbed when ai was younger.

@Snatcher Good luck. lol I don't think there's anything valuable there to check out, but that's just me.

@Maxenmus shoot I said dub I meant sub lmao!

@Snatcher lol No wonder.

Have fun! I had such a blast watching the sub. The show started to get good when Satoshi hit his peak began in Pokémon Frontier IMO, when he had to fight the Frontier Brain (easily far more challenging than the Elite Four) and was offered the role of being a fellow Brain himself.

I dunno whether it is just because I don't understand Japanese, so it means I don't notice when a performance is bad, but yah, I am usually more of a sub person in anime. Just feels like a lot more effort and emotion goes into their performances, generally, to me.

That said, almost every anime I watched as a kid, I try to watch the subbed original and it just doesn't sound good to me. There are notoriously bad dubs, like say One Piece and so I still watch that subbed. But like each time a new DBZ Movie comes out or something, I wait until it is dubbed.

There have also been a few exceptions of shows I have found when I was older and preferred the dub. I think the Japanese cast for Yu Yu Hakusho is really bland, and much prefer the more individual voices of the dub. This also goes for shows like Darker than Black, where the dub tried to better incorporate the various nationalities in the performances of the characters. And I just think the performances pretty much across the board - with the exception of maybe Mustang - in Brotherhood are way better in English.

Like I say though, almost all of these examples are me latching onto the nuance of performances. The Japanese performances might also be really detailed, but I don't know the language well enough to pick up on it, so I gravitate towards the English when I can pick up on those little details.

Also while I prefer Bleach and MHA in Japanese, I think the English cast are excellent for both of those shows. And in some ways, MHA being in English kinda makes more sense of the story.

@Maxenmus Yeah gonna have to get used to ashes Japanese name Lmao.

@Pizzamorg I do think that there's a certain argument for dubs over subs sometimes. It does take getting used to if you're familiar with subs your entire life like myself though. I guess another reason is because I'm a purist who's interested in what the original director had to say about the story when he did the casting for the voices, rather than what the American interpreters think he meant.

However, I will agree that certain shows definitely feel more natural in dub form. Not just shows either but also games. SMT: Strange Journey sorely needed an English dub as the characters are literally international soldiers, scientists and experts from across the globe; it didn't make sense for them to all speak Japanese. Likewise, don't make your entire cast English speakers if it's supposed to be an international sort of situation either; not everyone speaks English. Why are MCU aliens all speaking perfect English? You mean there's no such thing as alien languages? But that's an entirely different argument.

FMA could probably benefit from an English dub since it's steampunk, a westernized culture to begin with, but I don't really have strong negative feelings towards a Japanese cast since I'm not American or a westerner.

I've watched subbed anime enough that I do feel like I have a basic idea when the voice acting isn't good or (more often) interesting enough for it to be the automatic best version of anime. It's hard to judge entirely because I've only seen a few of both versions of any one anime to such a degree as to have a worthwhile opinion on that aspect (off the top of my head, Naruto, One Piece (technically three versions :V), Steins;Gate, Re:Zero, One Punch Man, Kill la Kill, Spirited Away, Demon Slayer). But I can still compare one Japanese voice acted show to another, and I can tell when one is just doing the norm and another is hitting it out of the park at the very least.

I also noticed this in Bravely Default. I was scared away from the English voice acting by people but the Japanese seemed so limited to me. It felt like if the characters were happy or sad, they would portray exactly one rigid performance of that emotion regardless of any context. They'd sound exactly as sad if they lost some money or if their entire family died, I'm convinced.

But most of the time I just stick with one because I don't have infinite time and subbed is admittedly, a slightly safer choice. (I wanna say it doesn't even matter anymore but I watched Demon Slayer dubbed first so uh, yes it does sometimes :V)

Just finished watching Machikado Mazoku with my brother. Most of it was just us saying that we both think the Yuri trope is cute lol. Now I shall watch Konosuba with him!

Me and my brother started Nekopara. It's so cute that I'm gonna die!

I watched the first JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure season last year and I thought it was just okay.

I never rewatch anime or replay games but after the announcement that All Star Battle is coming I gave it another try. The beginning of the first season is still average then it gets so much better. Then by Stardust Crusaders I was hooked.

I have just started the first episode for Diamond Is Unbreakable this morning and I can already see why it sometimes gets compared to Persona 4 due to the setting and style. No bad thing in my book.

It's really hard to recommend this Dragon Quest anime that's been airing the past 2 years. It'll apparently reach episode 100 by the end, which is a lot to ask for someone, its more basic than standard shonen made nowadays, its not even one of my favorites. But I'm still really fond of it and I wish literally anyone outside of Japan cared about it.

@kkslider5552000
Welcome to the club of "niched anime/media that have a special place in our heart but it's understandable why people outside of said fandom (and Japan) aren't interested in it because it doesn't feel that unique, interesting, or special compared to most anime, or non-anime TV shows even." It's a working title.

I would say Digimon anime falls into that category even in 2022. But what can we do except fight the good fight of discussion our favorite fandoms as vocally as possibly to express our fandom and passion?

Aside from Digimon, I also have fond memories of Detective Conan (or Case Closed in American dub) as a kid, but I too find it difficult to recommend even the first 400 episodes of the anime to mystery drama lovers because it's not exactly the most revolutionary, or at times, well-written mystery drama, certainly no Conan Doyle material either (in spite of heavily referencing Sherlock). Also, it's not an anime for mystery lovers, but mystery drama lovers might like it since some of the cases fall apart if you think about it too hard, so the appeal here is more the "drama" part. But there's a certain emotional tragic atmosphere to that drama (not just because it's a murder mystery with tragic murder motives, but also because Conan could only watch as his girlfriend suffers loneliness in silence) that makes it special for me.

Actually Detective Conan is my favorite anime series ever. Mostly because taking the super long running shonen idea but making a murder mystery series instead of action is profoundly compelling binge watching that Netflix could only dream of, and the series' ability to do so much with so little in terms of character development and especially plot is brilliant. I don't think I'll ever be into another tv series as much as I was Detective Conan the first year or two I was into it.

But yeah, I've barely ever bothered to even get close to recommending it to people. You either buy 100 volumes of manga or read it online where AFAIK they never did decent translations for a lot of the series' peak, or spend potentially an actual eternity watching the whole anime. Not to mention the series is well past its peak so getting caught up to see a worse version of itself seems like a dumb thing to do.

I agree. The first four movies also feel special in that sense too, building character development few movie versions of shounen anime TV series would have (since most of them are just an excuse to profit off of the TV series with some non-canon adventure with no consequences). The later movies after that did devolve into that very stereotype, but the first few were great mystery thrillers, adventures, and the fourth film especially focused on the aforementioned guilt Conan feels for not telling Ran the truth about himself. The first film too had a great climax where Conan literally agreed to spend his last moments with Ran in a very bleak and tearjerking scene (that the later films would rehash to death and made it super-predictable and generic...).

Yeah, unfortunately. I'm just waiting for the final climactic battle that would eventually come, when Conan finally takes on the Black Organization boss (whose identity has been revealed not too recently).

I’ve stuck with it as I struggle to drop things but I have been disappointed with how average it’s been. I’m actually looking forward to it concluding soon.

I also recently watched the Persona Golden anime. I knew it’d be a spin off but I thought it would make sense to finally watch it before Diamond Is Unbreakable (JoJo). I’m not a Marie fan anyway but gawd it was much worse than the main Persona 4 anime, which was good unlike the Persona 5 one. Only 2 episodes had any real narrative. It was cringy and almost fan fictiony like people say about Persona Q.

@JoeDiddley
I could barely remember any of it, but that makes sense, considering Golden was an adaptation of the extended version of the original Persona 4 game released for the PS Vita, so they couldn't really just do a remake of their Persona 4 anime again and slap the Vita-added content, so their hands were pretty much tied.

It's like trying to adapt Pokémon Emerald but only showing Rayquaza without bothering to touch on Groudon and Kyogre.

@Maxenmus I get what you are saying and I knew going in it was limited. But perhaps if their hands were that tied a spin off ova or film would’ve been better.