![Video Game Wall](https://images.nintendolife.com/55d9cc5b0df42/video-game-wall.900x.jpg)
For those following the general chat around video games, one topic that has generated debate recently has been Sony’s announcement of the upcoming closures of digital stores on PlayStation 3, PS Vita and PSP. As news, it wasn’t necessarily surprising, for reasons we’ll expand upon, but it did bring the whole subject into sharp focus.
It’s hard to find anyone that approves of the move, and though existing purchases on those storefronts will remain accessible to redownload, this is only “for the foreseeable future”, which is ominously vague. In addition, many have pointed out various iconic digital-only games that, in theory, will no longer be available to purchase and play legally. That has been the crux of much debate, not only around Sony’s decision but the nature of gaming media itself.
Nintendo, of course, is in the middle of this topic, through its past actions and questions over the future. It’s a good time, then, to consider some of the issues raised.
![Switch Online](https://images.nintendolife.com/03050cdb6c528/switch-online.900x.jpg)
What are the technical and business challenges of digital preservation and access?
One issue that doesn’t often get addressed in the undeniably passionate debate is logistics — are there challenges that actually make it unfeasible to maintain digital stores and their content long term?
In terms of nuts and bolts, the general opinion of our technically-minded staff members is that though there are costs and logistics to bear in mind, they’re not necessarily significant enough to justify withdrawing financial support. Maintaining servers on low-use stores, for enormous billion-dollar corporations, shouldn’t be too much of a concern. Old servers and databases, such as Wii Shop for example, may be operating on end-of-life services, in which case the data would need to be migrated to more modern alternatives. In general though, this shouldn’t be a particularly tough undertaking considering the resources of Nintendo / Sony / Microsoft, but of course it nonetheless needs to be sanctioned and approved.
So, in terms of servers and data, the technicalities need not be too much of a factor. However, it’s far more complicated than this once you consider areas such as licensing and copyright; these are truly the defining issues with preserving certain games, at least in their original forms.
Put simply, copyright concerns around video games are significant because of the medium’s unique nature, and its comparative youth.
Put simply, copyright concerns around video games are significant because of the medium’s unique nature, and its comparative youth. For example the copyright laws around books, or more specifically authors of printed works, are established and clear. A specific number of years after an author’s death their work can be distributed and preserved for free (though you can't just sell a copy of a Shakespeare play, for example, unless you own the rights). Until that time, the legal owner of the copyright controls all means of distribution.
However, printed works have been an industry for hundreds of years, and the video game industry is a baby by comparison. In addition, games get complicated because they feature so many pieces from different sources, in some cases each with their own rights issues. Music is the classic example, especially in modern games, where they’ll license music but then, eventually, that agreement expires. You only need to see the exasperated eye-rolls of all concerned when it comes to GoldenEye 007, too, as attempts to re-release it fell foul of so many rights holders being involved.
Apply these issues to specific older games, and regardless of platform holders closing stores they eventually get removed from sale. The idea of reviving them falls foul of the same problems, as the effort and expense of catering to all licenses and rights holders is significant. This article on why you’ll never get to play your favourite retro game on Switch delves into this in detail.
So, we fall into unofficial preservation via ROMs and the enthusiast space, which is where things get messy.
![Assorted carts](https://images.nintendolife.com/1ca8d531c39a4/assorted-carts.900x.jpg)
Game preservation isn’t the same as game piracy
This area of debate has done the rounds here on Nintendo Life for many, many years. We know Nintendo’s policy, which is typically to shut down ROM sites or projects that it considers to be infringing its copyright. Perhaps a problem in the debate, and indeed at times Nintendo’s policy towards it, is a focus on ROMs = piracy, which is a simplistic argument.
It’s worth remembering that, for reasons only known in Nintendo’s HQ, the Wii Virtual Console version of Super Mario Bros. was believed to be derived, either entirely or in part, from a ROM online. The video below from Eurogamer sums it up nicely.
However, let’s not be naïve; some use ROM sites for pirating content, plain and simple. That subset of the gaming audience unfortunately directs the gaze away from those simply trying to protect the industry’s history. It’s vital that we recognise the excellent work of organisations such as the Game Preservation Society and The Video Game History Foundation; they’re at the forefront of ensuring that the industry’s history, including gaming publications as well as actual source code, are preserved.
Where it gets sticky is what you do with game source code, for example, when it’s preserved. This is where issues of copyright and licenses, highlighted in the previous section, stick their head back above the parapet. The moment content is shared or distributed so that the public can see historical games for themselves, the law becomes a factor and companies' ears start burning. Somewhere in the topic, copyright and ownership cannot be escaped, it's the recurring theme.
![The 'Mini' consoles have demonstrated the significant profitability of bundling emulated retro games in a product](https://images.nintendolife.com/a91ecd9c757b1/the-mini-consoles-have-demonstrated-the-significant-profitability-of-bundling-emulated-retro-games-in-a-product.900x.jpg)
Are Nintendo and other major game companies preserving their own history?
Before we get too critical here, it’s important to acknowledge that every form of media experiences growing pains in preserving its history. Much of early cinema was lost as film was literally disposed of once theatre runs were over; as attitudes shifted so did efforts to retain copies and preserve film. In television the BBC infamously had to own up to the fact it had lost master copies of iconic shows like Doctor Who because it had simply taped over them. Archiving, in all industries, has enough errors and mishaps to fill a library’s worth of books.
It’s clear that at present a lot of the industry's big players are entirely slapdash when it comes to managing source code of their own games.
That said, it’s clear that at present a lot of the industry's big players are entirely slapdash when it comes to managing source code of their own games. SEGA is practically famous for this, and a recent example put Koei Tecmo on the defensive; Team Ninja brand manager Fumihiko Yasuda said only “fragments of the data” remained from the original Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden 2 (the more recent 3D ones, that is), so the upcoming Ninja Gaiden: Master Collection is utilising the ‘Sigma’ versions for the work. The age of the Remaster has frequently demonstrated that developers have had to work around a lack of coherent source code when producing enhanced editions, and projects like the upcoming restoration of 'lost' arcade game Clockwork Aquario — a title being painstakingly reconstructed with input from members of the original development team — highlight the challenges preservationists face.
Nintendo isn’t squeaky clean here, as the example of Super Mario Bros. on Wii Virtual Console highlighted; this makes its often aggressive attitude towards ROMs, at times, counter-productive. The fact is that ROMs and structured, established resources of emulation software are vital, too, because physical media won’t last forever. Our own Damien McFerran is one of multiple Nintendo Lifers with a substantial retro collection, and he has written about the realities of historic game systems and their media slowly but surely dying. Without the digitisation and secure storage of this content, it could be lost forever.
Of ‘the big three’, there is no doubt that Microsoft (the comparative youngster of the industry) is earning the best PR at the moment for its treatment of older games. It’s far from perfect, but at the very least it’s making noises about preserving gaming history, and going to impressive lengths to support backwards compatibility on its current system. In comparison, Nintendo and Sony are currently off the pace.
Business is obviously a big factor; it’s plain as day that Nintendo will adopt the ‘Disney Vault’ approach of scarcity and fear of missing out to drive monster profits; it sure worked with Super Mario 3D All-Stars. Also worth noting, we don’t even have full security in terms of access to our old digital purchases on the Wii Shop, for example; Nintendo, like Sony, says re-downloading old downloadable content from that store “will eventually end at a future date”.
Game preservation, in the youth of the games industry, is still being swept aside by profit-driven business. The fear is that if preservation of gaming history isn’t upheld and managed by companies like Nintendo, the reliance on voluntary groups can feel precarious. With many games lost already for various reasons, how many more will disappear before the games industry matures and protects its legacy? Can legal areas like copyright and licenses be addressed in the same way as other forms of entertainment media, to aid the efforts of those that seek to preserve the medium?
Big questions, and as it stands not many answers from those that hold the keys to the vault.
Comments 192
I tend to like to hear the developer stories, how they made these old games instead of the games themselves sometimes. Even bad games can have interesting stories behind them.
Developers never get enough credit, besides preserving the games themselves we should also try to preserve the stories of how these games were made too.
Thankfully emulation allows preservation
I think the biggest reason to preserve games is out of respect for all the people who worked on the games to begin with. It must suck working in an industry where the corporation you develop for treats your work in such a throw away manner.
It would also be nice if their were laws around franchises. Like if you don’t release a game from said franchise in 10 years someone else can use it. I know this would never happen but it sickens me to see all the Rareware IP being wasted as well as things like F-Zero
As long as piracy and emulators exist, software will be preserved. It might be an imperfect solution, but it is a solution.
In a real relationship, both sides listen to each other.
We should all remember that when we consider how games are preserved. Multinational corporations treated games as disposable products, but they became part of our lives. It is the fan community that has taught the companies the value of "retro", not the other way 'round.
Please, remember that next time you want to use a legal or authoritarian argument to defend Nintendo, Sony or anyone else.
To be honest, this is why emulation is vital for the artform, not the industry. The business side is only one aspect and people forget that at the end of the day, creators are making art. Preservation from official sources would be nice but I’ll always turn to the fan communities first.
@COVIDberry "Multinational corporations treated games as disposable products..."
Most companies treat their products as disposable. As soon as it costs more to preserve and maintain it than they can make from selling it, it's gone.
I've been frantically overspending on PlayStation 3 Store games this past week. So many PSOne Classics and other digital-only games that are soon to be lost forever. Super sad.
I've been prioritising games that are obscure and are unlikely to receive modern re-releases any time soon, such as Threads of Fate, and Vib-Ribbon. Does anyone have any recommendations?
@Mountain_Man Nintendo, jealously clutching its IP, stamping out fan remakes, is not one of those companies, you'd think. And yet...
I've never owned an Xbox in any gen. I've been Nintendo-only until the PS2 generation when I had the means to have Sony as my primary console and Nintendo for the exclusives, but I have to say that Microsoft's approach to backwards compatibility and access to legacy content appears to be light-years ahead of Sony and Nintendo.
I think classic Nintendo games will always be re-released since fans will always appreciate them when we get older. The thing is, Nintendo needs to do a better job of putting a complete package. The 25th anniversary Mario should have included World and Yoshi's island. The 3D Mario All Stars should have included Mario Galaxy 2. I am sure this is not the last of these games we will see in the future, but the compilations need to be better. Also, I wish I can buy games from Nintendo online instead of just renting them for a year.
@nessisonett Emulation is something I appreciate it but don't people get in trouble for downloading emulated games. A better question is...are there actual reports of people getting in trouble for emulated games?
Nintendo is definitely NOT trying to preserve anything. They re-release only for profit.
Xbox is trying to do it with Backwards compatibility. I mean it is nice to play older games on the newest system by just having your old disc.
Sony is also trying with the PS5 and its physical backwards compatibility.
Preserve your own physical purchases because as gaming moves to a more subscription-based model, you will never really own anything and what is or isn't available to you will be the decisions of MS, Sony, Nintendo, or I suppose Google. I like Game Pass from Microsoft but I'm fully aware that what's there today might not be there tomorrow.
It is amazing how far back I can go with gaming on my new Xbox Series S. I bought an Xbox 360 game from December 2006 and have it playable on it.
Nintendo isn’t squeaky clean here... this makes its often aggressive attitude towards ROMs, at times, counter-productive.
@ThomasBW84 Thank you, Mr. Whitehead.
These days, the law lets corporations have it both ways: their products are cultural and intellectual, and receive the highest level of protection, and yet are treated as disposable goods at the same time. The issue of multiply-licensed works like GoldenEye is particularly vexing; such works need to enter the public domain much, much sooner.
And yet you, your fellow writers and Nintendo decry emulation and rom sites: the very pioneers of online game preservation and essential for it's survival and compare it to as something as awful as 'piracy' and therefore must be stamped out?
There's a reason I don't visit this site as much as I used to and this hypocrisy is one of those reasons.
@BloodNinja welcome to the real world. No business values it’s employees although some people will convince themselves that they are valuable to a business. Bottom line, wether you’re a baker or a brain surgeon, you can be replaced at the drop of a hat. Every employee is expendable
I want Zack and Wiki on Switch
@MysteryCupofJoe Not everyone downloads ROMs, I’ve only resorted to that a few times. I usually make sure to get physical copies and rip my own images to use in emulation. That’s 100% legal. Of course, some games are so rare that I just couldn’t afford the inflated price. I’ve even imported Mother 3 and Fire Emblem 4 and 5 for the sole purpose of English patches.
I don't see anything changing anytime soon.
Roms and emulators will be the safety net for many, many games.
Nintendo is actually pretty darn good at preservation. Remember that Giga leak where it turned out Nintendo kept the sprite work for the Super Mario World prototype? I wouldn't doubt they have the source code for every game they ever made in storage somewhere. They just refuse to let anyone else see it! An example of a company that is terrible at preservation would be Konami, who apparently couldn't be asked to keep the source code for their mainline Silent Hill games. All jokes aside, Nintendo is anti-consumer in many ways, stretching back to their NES days even, that lack of game availability from them is honestly lower down on my list of things I'd like to see them start practicing. Would I like to see them put Virtual Console on Switch so I can play Golden Sun or Path of Radiance? Absolutely, but I'd like to see them fix the joy-con designs and improve their current online infrastructure more. In the meantime, we've got emulation, not a practice I'd like to support, but there are few other options available.
Preservation is important, but gotta love how the same fandom can lament it while dumping roms and images by the gazillion. We've been living in the emulation age for decades now, you can even access obscure Russian PCs of the 80s and everything written for them. There are unfortunate cases of vaporware, but for the most part there is a tangible difference between the availability and purchasability of video games. Although things do get grim when you touch upon service-based games including the entire F2P market of today.
Make no mistake, it's not "some" who use rom sites for pirating content, their name is legion. And I don't bother covering my own past - and on multiple fronts, continuing - journey under the black flag (which is also why the boogymen of digital ownership aren't a concern to me - once I have legitimately paid for a game on the platform, no future delisting, download server shutdown or other fine print undo the successful deal with the conscience on my part😏), so I don't pretend to be in a position to bark at Nintendo and other publishers for carpet bombing these romsites either. But their demise is rarely the end of the world since basic web platforms were never the only way to store and access rom collections online. Unless you hail from the generation who deems a file deleted from the internet as soon as they can no longer find it on YouTube.
And I certainly welcome as many older games as Nintendo can make available for purchase/subscription again, but let's not omit the fact that they're already one of the most "serious" juggernauts in the industry about it. Certainly more than the Sony of today - but the latter can't even afford/bother to be serious about a market as lucrative as portable gaming, so what will you do. Nintendo is far from perfect in this regard, too, but the licensing hell we all continue to live in makes sure no one will be. At least "for the foreseeable future".
@samurai I sure hope the parenthesized bit here wasn't a jab in my direction, because that would insinuate that I publicly call fans "human beings" in the first place, and I take offense to that.😆
Thank goodness for emulators and ROMS. I’ve been safely preserving entire retro game libraries for generations.
Xbox has really done a great job of offering backwards compatibility too. Happy to pay for retro games if companies actually provide them.
100% agree.
I thought the Wii has such an amazing idea and start with the whole Virtual Console--and then it all just **** after that.
Nintendo really dropped the ball.
The moral of the story is keep your legacy hardware and games, I have. Also I have various emulation systems, bootleg carts. Clone consoles. Preservation is sorted 👌
I have an external hard drive with tens of thousands of "preserved" games.
I've done my duty.
Nah, game preservation aren’t important. Games are just a product who are meant to entertain people for few hours. Gaming are not art.
What games need preserving? And by preservation, does that just mean available to buy? Or are folks wanting ways to play VHS tapes in a bluray player? And what happens to preserved games? Are folk wanting them in the public domain? Who preserves them? I honestly can't get my head around all this until someone tells me what exactly is game preservation. And honestly,I would love to, but I just don't get it (outside of folk have Rasperry Pis with 1000s of games on them because emulation is the saviour of gaming or something.) I'll be hionest and say I'm in the dark with this one. As I see Youtubers playing old games on emulation and can't see how that is preservation. If it was a single copy of a game, then yeah, I can see the source code needs preserving like it was in the Tate gallery. But mass production of entertainment? Needs preserving? Help! Pretty sure that's why I keep my fave games on each system I ever owned (with the hardware lol). It's why physical media is so important. The industry moves on to appease share holders (especially the bod that owns 51%). Some folk don't want to move on lol.
Obviously a potential legal mine field in some circumstances regarding old games, however an updated version of VC is more than overdue on the Switch! Thankfully I have purchased all my favs for the retro consoles I have and I will seriously consider the Polymega Analogue if it reaches English shores at a sensible price??!!
@Alienfreaks04 If you have a Wii U then you can still download it from there. I have downloaded a couple of games recently since I am not sure how long the Wii U Eshop is going to stay on.
@Axelay71 Talk to me about reproduction carts. I missed out on Pokemon Emerald and I see it cheap as a reproduction cart. Is it really as bad as people say it is? (I am talking about the game not saving your files which is a big thing for games like Pokemon).
@nhSnork Well I'm glad someone said it.
This is how serious I am about preserving my games. All 3 homebrewed and loaded with over 6000 classic titles across 14 consoles. Come at me Nintendo 🎮 😉
The fact that Team Ninja couldn't get Ninja Gaiden Black on the upcoming Ninja Gaiden collection cause the game was lost is outrageously ridiculous to me. Wtf is going on?? Games just die?!
I think this article brushes off two things way too easily.
First: the technical issues of maintaining storefronts. I have never seen hard data, but if a store server costs, say 10k dollars a month to run and is only selling a few thousand dollars a month in games. Then it is very logical to shut it down. Just because the company could afford the financial loss doesn't mean it should, indefinitely. Servers also don't just sit in a warehouse collecting dust. They take a lot of electricity and do require upkeep.
Second: The idea that it's even a significant minority of the community that cares about preservation. Again, I haven't seen hard data one way or the other. But in my experience everyone who talks about preservation is just looking to pirate roms they want to play.
And I do understand the temptation. Believe me, I do.
But we are not entitled to someone else's work. Period.
It doesn't matter how old a game is or how much money they could be making on it or how stupid it is that companies sit on mountains of potential profits from their legacy libraries.
We are not owed or entitled access to that content.
@MysteryCupofJoe personally mate I either use raspberry pi emulation where you can save state. Or I have Retron 5 which runs gameboy/
Game boy advance great and saves when u want. I don't use my original tech much anymore to stop damaging, boot leg carts run great from Aliexpress.
Honestly surprised that, even on a corporate level of thinking, most of these companies haven't re-released older games to make up for their constant (and very pricey) failings in modern times.
It's expensive to even make a decent B-class title, so most companies stick to what "sells" and pummel us with it. Or buy studios and pretend they're a saving grace. But the reality is, making more collections of what people liked in the old days would actually be a very smart idea.
Clay Fighter, Earthworm Jim, Golden Sun, Splinter Cell, Rayman, Pac-Man World, Klonoa, Vectorman... This list can go on for days that wouldn't be shunned for having 3 or more of their old games collected together. Not to mention some of the single-game ports many can probably do
Hell, the amount of people I actually know who would do practically anything for a port of F-Zero GX by this point is growing fast.
@Heavyarms55 - Thing is, how far down the chain of justification does emulation and content preservation goes that is entirely on the consumer end as well?
I mean, if I made my comic from when I was in college, how much are people entitled to my creations because they enjoyed them? How much are they allowed to host my works on their own servers, mitigating traffic or interaction to my supposed fanbase?
At what point does it no longer become "mine" to control?
@GrailUK I don't think game preservation is a complicated concept. It simply means that people want games to continue to be available to play. You mention VHS, but it's not the format that people care about, it's the content. So when a movie studio takes a movie that was previously available on VHS and releases it on a contemporary format like Bluray, then they are preserving that movie. People would like to see game developers and publishers have the same attitude about gaming software. Unfortunately, unlike movies, there is little financial incentive to release old games on new hardware because it's serving a niche market. So, in the end, it's really up to fans to preserve their favorite games through emulation and piracy. And while I'm not in favor of piracy, it is with a sense of irony that I admit that it's only because of "warez" groups that we even have access to a lot of old software that would have completely disappeared, such as the extensive Commodore 64 and Amiga software libraries.
@Heavyarms55
" But in my experience everyone who talks about preservation is just looking to pirate roms they want to play.
And I do understand the temptation. Believe me, I do."
Wow, if that's not painting game archivists with a broad brush then I don't know what is.
Most of us don't emulate or run ROMs because we want games for free, heck most of us would buy those games in a heartbeat if they became available, it's because we aren't given any other options by companies to buy those old games and we want to preserve those old classics for years to come and keeping maintenance on an old console that runs those games is both time consuming and costly and it's more convenient to use emulators since there's little to no maintenance involved besides the occasional update.
Do you even have the slightest knowledge of how hard it is to make a ROM or run and emulator? Because it's nowhere as easy as you may think it is and it takes time and patience to complete and learn to make sure those programs are running properly.
I understand you said you haven't done much research, but I and many others in the emulation community would appreciate it if you didn't call us all "pirates" without understanding why we do what we do.
@Mountain_Man Blimey, thank you! I understood that Preserving a game so that it is replicatble I can totally get. But whenever I see older games released, it's like folk forget they have value. Especially if there is demand for them. My gut tells me most folk aren't being as genuine as they claim lol. Maybe, it should be a case of buy a game once. Dunno. Tech moves on, so that has to be unsustainable.
I honestly would love to hear more from the supposed outliers (Nintendo and Sony) on how they actually feel about this. The narrative being painted lately is that they don't care. And that very well could be the case. But there could also be other factors that come into play that we either having given much thought to or don't want to give much thought to because it might force us to examine our own gaming habits.
But maybe it's not that egregious of an issue for me as there are very few games I'm concerned about surviving and it's the usual suspects that Nintendo's been accused of "forcing" people to buy every generation. For most games, I move on once I've gotten my 100+ hours out of it or if the latest iteration is released.
I'll also say from the aspect of time and space, is it really that big of a deal if not all games are saved for future play? I mean, new games and experiences are released all the time. It's not like there isn't a dearth of games to play. I also don't blame a company for not wanting to waste resources preserving a game or games that only a subset of the audience is gonna actually play.
@AnnoyingFrenzy I was about to bring up the giga leak as well. Truth be told this is less an issue with preservation and more an issue with allowing consumers to have access to classic games (which they should and companies like nintendo need to stop being so greedy). Between rights holders' personal files, ROM sites and the public's own collections the vast majority of games are archived in some capacity. Even if a source code is lost and the game is completely reconstructed from scratch or the only surviving copy is a form of emulation based on original code it is still preservation. Not to get all "ship of theseus" but most original works of art dating back to antiquity could be argued as not genuine since most have had massive restoration efforts in order to preserve them. What matters more, the idea of the Mona Lisa or the paints originally used to create it?
The simple solution would be to put older games on Steam.
but when you have people openly defending Nintendo for 3D aall stars, expect Nintendo to continue to not care about their legacy titles.
We live in a world where newer players can't experience Eternal Darkness without buying a GC/Wii, controller, game, and analogue to digital video cable, but they can play the entire Alone in the Dark series for like £10.
@Richnj
Actually we live in a world where I can download Eternal Darkness on my PC and be playing it in less than an hour via emulation.
Can we talk about the real issue here for a second...what sort of monster stores their GameCube games that way round?!? Surely it’s logo on the top??
Also, imagine if everybody released their legacy games tomorrow. I couldn't afford them all. I bet anyone with an emulator would think there is no hurry to buy them all. And man alive, imagine how saturated the market would be! Talk about an industry crash!
Booooring. Who cares if some old crappy barbie game dissapears from existance. Good games will live on in our collections and remakes
@Fleischyy Hahaha! Good lord, well spotted! This needs reporting to...to...erm...who do we reports crimes against gaming to, again?
@Carck Surely you read sideways writing top to down? Surely.
@HamatoYoshi Oh, I had my welcome a couple decades ago 😬
@Carck Haha, that concept has everything to do with preservation. What’s the point in keeping something around when you don’t have ready access to it?! LOL
@UmbreonsPapa Sony has pretty openly declared that it’s not one of their top priorities. A famous quote from one of their top execs on the matter, “Do people still play these things?” Nintendo at least has their online service!
Let's say a new game is made from an established series, why not have an edition that includes some of the previous games? Like if there is another remaster of OoT, pack in at least the original, possible all the prior games.
So much difference in people's personalities, finances, upbringings, etc comes into play. Theres the people who think, "who cares, I don't want to play old things, these things are temporary and you move on to the new ones", and the people like myself they feel if you buy something you should have it until you're dead and buried. There will never be reconciliation between these mindsets. They are people with entirely incompatible views of value. And as long as half the fan base feels that investor value is what's most important in life, business will never have incentive to pretend otherwise.
@KillerBOB *illegally
I totally understand as consumers that the most devoted of us would want to savor our gaming experiences for ever. I understand that through emulation games that would be in some cases impossible to play otherwise can still be available for play. What I don’t understand is why it must be Nintendo to preserve this history. It is entirely likely they do preserve every aspect of their games and hardware development (even if early on they didn’t do so). Nintendo is under no obligation to make sure every one of us is perfectly happy with them.
Should is be on Ford to continue to make Model Ts or just the parts for Model Ts available? Should Sony still be manufacturing CRT tvs, cassette players, and cassettes?
@Chowdaire you’re calling Nintendo greedy for not selling their old games to you. What?
I have numerous emulators on my PSP and some PSP games I downloaded off the net.
I don't feel guilty for downloading these games because the PSP is no longer an active system Sony makes money off of, and the fact that they are shutting down the online store only backs me up.
I want to play PSP games like Ghost of Sparta, but the online store is down? Well, a used copy won't work since my UMD drive is busted.
What if a game is not on the store like Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai Another Road?
I collect roms to replay older games, try out games I never played when a system was new, and yes, preserve games.
When games get released properly on modern hardware, I do buy them like Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and The Blade of Light.
But in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with downloading old roms to systems that are out of production.
I don't feel guilty for having some roms on my PSP.
If Nintendo, Sony, Sega, or others won't release their games on modern platforms, then I'll find the games myself and play them.
This is why roms and gaming preservation are so damn important.
@Carck Ahhhhh. Mystery solved! Good work
It was pointed out to me that despite folk moaning about Wii U ports on Switch, they are the most complate version of games. Even Nintendo adds patches to fresh batches of carts they print (hey, I'm a poet and have no idea about poetry!). matybe when we get a Selects run, they will also be the most complete on cart versions. For preservation.
(This preservation thing sounds expensive to me. I can see why folk want to defend emulation hahah)
Nothing has quite the same power to open a wallet than nostalgia. I bought my Switch for the early 80's Nintendo arcade games that are exclusive to Switch through Hamster's Arcade Archives. Unfortunately many licensed games are likely to remain the poster children for emulation and the need for game preservation. I would pick a polished official release of Marvel vs Capcom 2 or even Nintendo's Popeye (arcade version) over just about anything else being released on Switch.
As much as sites and people want to condemn it, emulation and distribution of ROMs/ISOs has done far more for the preservation of video games than any company has.
You can pretty much find any game, in any format it was in. You can also find alphas, betas, cut content, original versions of games, unedited versions of games. There's a plethora of content that otherwise would not have seen the light of day that has not only been preserved in this way, but also made available, as shady as it may be.
@SeantheDon29 - There is a difference between the archivists and those that download en masses the work made. However, there is an easy solution against the latter, and it isn't addressing the latter directly.
People who also take others art and uploads it themselves can make the defense of "preserving" the art as they see fit cause they love the artist. We come to the question of the level of control people should have over their creations. So where is the line eventually drawn in the sand?
Once an employee has contributed to the creation of a product and been paid that’s where it ends for them. The game is owned by the company. It’s crazy for artists, programmers and song writers to constantly stop rereleases from happening. They were paid for their services just as many of us are paid to do our jobs each and every day. So for example TMNT 3 on NES you should only need to go through Konami for the licensing. Konami paid for the license of TMNT and produced a product that made back their initial investment of the license. The game is owned by Konami. Ergo you don’t have to go to Nickelodeon or Eastman/Laird and pony up extra cash!
There's a difference between video game preservation and video game access. With certain games, there's just too many viable ways to be able to play the game outside of the current console, both legally and illegally, even if it's not in that super special 1080p 60fps gameplay you want so much.
Asking to preserve those games is rather ridiculous if you already have working consoles or other devices that can already run or emulate a game.
Games that were absurdly difficult to obtain should be preserved. Games that haven't been localized should be preserved. Beta and unreleased games should be preserved. Certain limited time releases of games should be preserved, like Four Swords Anniversary Edition the localized first Fire Emblem game.
It’s pretty simple really: change the law so that games that are out of print, abandon ware and are not for sale anywhere via a digital download can be legally played on emulators.
Game preservation has been worked on by the online community since the mid-1990’s. It is just unfortunately by currently illegal practices of ripping games. If they left it alone and let us just get on with it then there is no problem.
Piracy of currently available software of any sort is illegal and should never be condoned.
It's not a mystery why the industry Is neglecting retro gaming, because it increases people's backlogs and slows down their consumption of newer games.
You can't play any previous version of League of Legends. Considering the game has changed A LOT, it's safe to say that old league is dead. A game millions played cannot be played anymore, only the new different one can be played.
@Paraka Trust me, I understand that. I just don’t like the idea that people have that the two are one and the same when the clearly aren’t.
And this is why I go physical when possible. And have digital backups. And backups of the backups
A person using a cup thousands of years ago probably didn’t think the cup was very special. If it broke, they probably just tossed it away without thinking. But now, when an archaeologist finds a cup from thousands of years ago buried under a carpark in Woking, it’s a big deal. It gives us an insight into how those people lived. Imagine making the decision not to preserve a game just because it’s a bit bothersome, denying people thousands of years in the future the chance to see what was being created in this moment in time, and wonder why people would pass their time playing these things called video games.
This is such an important juncture in the history of video games. You only get one shot at preservation, once it’s gone, it’s gone for good.There are stories in games that tell about our culture, society, and the world in this period of time. If people thousands of years ago took the time and effort to preserve as much as they could, we wouldn’t have gotten stories passed down through the generations about just the rich and powerful, we’d have a load of artefacts telling us about ordinary people, and from that we’d be able to form a much better understanding of who we are. If we preserve these games now, the people of the future can learn about what ordinary people like us liked to do with their time. And if nothing else, the future people can laugh at our ridiculous depictions of their present.
@Carck Games preservation and car preservation are logistically, massively different! It would be way more taxing to keep pumping out the various car makes, but to have access to a ROM or a service that’s digital? Seems like it should be pretty easy. Are you for, or against convenience? How is it entitled to want to pay for services that make life more convenient, as would be the case with a service they provides legal ROM access like Nintendo Online, for example?
@GameOtaku - Are you suggesting K-T should port Hyrule Warriors to PS5? It's kind of how licenses sort of protect from.
This just tells me we need less licensed games period. More control of who ports what.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the NES TMNT games, but I get why licensing exists. I would much more prefer more original stuff just on that premise alone.
@idrawrobots LOL, maybe greedy isn't the right word, although holding them hostage with limited events and re-releasing them on every console without a unified store is greedy.
Nintendo used to have a site for Another Code R, it hosted wallpapers, localization interviews, a prologue, character profiles.
Those last two are in the game's manual booklet, but what about the others? Where can I find those interviews now?
Preserving the game itself shouldn't be the only priority, re-releases of games almost never come with all the materials that once existed for them. There are so many retro games that could benefit from having a HQ manual scan, especially GBA which would come in color and with goodies oftentimes.
Yes, yes! Once you all start paying attention, they'll start paying attention.
Let's hope these companies and other third parties take preservation seriously. I Agree that Microsoft seems to be doing the best job, but the original Xbox is not well represented right now. Sony and Nintendo have more work to do and also more generations to preserve than Microsoft with Sony going back to 32-bit and Nintendo to 8-bit.
@Richnj
Who cares?
Nintendo isn't losing money on it because they aren't selling it anymore.
@GrailUK "My [gut] tells me most folk aren't being as genuine as they claim lol."
There is little doubt that some people use "preservation" as an excuse to acquire games that they never paid for, but in many cases, the preservationists are simply people who want to maintain access to a legacy gaming library that they've spent good money on.
Books, music, and movies have done a great job at preserving their art over the decades.
Video games are better than they once were, but still it's impossible to play certain games without doing it through "illegal" means like emulators and ROMs.
While I understand that new formats make it not financially feasible for companies to continues printing games for different formats, with the rise in digital, it should be easier than ever to move over these titles to these new formats through the cloud or other methods like that.
Nintendo, which is similar to Disney when it comes to their IPs, seems to view any other console that isn't the NES or SNES as a failure. And perhaps you could make the argument that is true to a degree (with the Wii as well). Also, Nintendo has said in the past they would like gamers to enjoy new experiences and not focus on older ones. Ok, but like books, movies and music, there are certain titles that don't age. I can still pull out a Beatles album or Michael Jackson's Thriller and love the experience, or I can watch a classic film from the 50s or 60s and still enjoy it. Dipping into the past doesn't mean the future has to suffer.
I love video games and they are a big part of my life but I think forcing blame on companies is un realistic and a bit tone deaf.
While games to the consumers and perhaps some of the devs now might be art or history we have to remember that they are mass produced entertainment products/toys. They weren’t expected to be a cultural phenomenon and the logistics behind gaming manufacturing wasn’t designed to support that. Even other industries like books are not perfectly preserved.
It costs money to maintain servers and games are wrapped in a great deal of licensing contracts as well. Also hard drives fail, buildings and equipment are lost, employees have issues with the company, companies go under. Are we asking for all games to be preserved or just an arbitrary group of favorites? That still leaves others out. We don’t expect this of other consumer industries and I think because games are digital first and the printed physical later (which allows for the emulation market to flourish) that people forget that. Is anyone asking Ford for a Model T to go back into production? Anybody burning down CBS for an old tv show? Anybody asking Nintendo for their first hanafuda cards or the love tester to be remade? No. And if anybody is it is a small group.
Plus it’s a damned if they do, damned if they don’t scenario. If they release old games, people complain about pricing, lack of QoL enhancements, or speculate that this old game stopped/delayed development on a new game. Also what about GaaS? Servers go dark and so does the game.
Personally I just want to see hardware BC on systems (but I also recognize that can also be expensive and introduce new points of failure) and I am fine with what efforts companies place in digital stores and collections. If you want an old game not on offer, line some online seller’s pocket, or find a retro store or worst case emulate. But we can’t expect a full offering of products from 30-40 years ago. In fact we don’t demand that of any other industry.
@LillianC14 agree my two kids were playing and loving the 360 version sonic all stars racing which is older than they are. and bought it digital on 360 played xbox one. and now on the series s. hate on MS all you want but that and gamepass if you cant see the value then shakes my head.
Gog shows how it should be.
"A specific number of years after an author’s death their work can be distributed and preserved for free (though you can't just sell a copy of a Shakespeare play, for example, unless you own the rights)."
This is incorrect. Once something enters the public domain, it's a free-for-all. There's nothing stopping me, IP-wise, from printing and selling copies of "Romeo & Juliet." It happens all the time.
(I have a Masters in Library and Information Science. Librarians know more about copyright than you might think.)
@Ryu_Niiyama old tv shows. YT dvd online streaming I bet you can find loads of them. and I bet most tv companies etc well except the old bbc back in day preserve them.
@Spekkio Question: what happens when a book publisher goes under and a book collection is purchased by a university but not made public? Beyond going to the university. What recourse do readers have aside from tracking down old copies of books?
One article you condone emulation and ROMs and next you put this article out lol
@Paraka
Ah but you see Zelda is a Nintendo IP created in house so it’s only going to be on Nintendo consoles. Konami doesn’t own the turtles IP but they created the game and paid for the rights to make it.
@Frobodobo
"Who cares if some old crappy barbie game dissapears from existance."
I play girly games, yo.
And they are in legit disc and or cartridge.
This is why I'm so glad we have people who design emulators. And now we even have portable devices that run many emulators. What a time to be alive!
@Paraka "So where is the line eventually drawn in the sand?"
Copyright law was supposed to be that line, giving someone a financial incentive to create a work for which they could profit for a limited time, after which it would become public domain. Unfortunately, companies like Disney keep finding ways to bribe and coerce politicians into changing the law so that Disney can protect its most precious properties (for instance, if copyright law as originally written was followed to the letter, then Mickey Mouse would in the public domain right now), and so things have become a bit of a mess.
@KillerBOB You misunderstand. I'm not saying you or anyone shouldn't be downloading ROMS because it is illegal.
I'm saying that because it is illegal to get games that way, 1) there is a certain amount of personal risk people take doing it. And 2) If a company and/or court decide to end the whole thing (and with how Nintendo are with their IPs, it's not unrealistic) they could crack down on people who host and share the ROMs.
I'm trying to get my head around how someone could make an argument that "well I can do it illegally, so why do there need to be legal avenues for it?" Not sure why people have been pushing for cannabis to be legalised, or for the minimum wage to be increased, just smoke weed illegally and steal food. Perfect system.
@HamatoYoshi That's my motto when it comes to setting expectations for retired gaming systems (and when an emulator/roms will become accessible), but most people don't seem to understand WHY.
Also some of this feels like the hubris of the old. How many 12 year olds are wishing they could play old games? (Or realistically younger considering when some of us started playing games.) Especially without influence from their parents trying to live vicariously through their children.
Not saying preservation is bad but who are we asking companies to put this expenditure out for? Is someone in 60 years gonna be wishing they could play fortnite or mario brothers? Or more to the point of preservation rather than popularity are they gonna wanna play a lesser known game? As with now the popular stuff is preserved via rereleases and collections (that gamers then complain about). However pointing back to my earlier posts there are logistics that prevent all games from being put on offer and yet there is very little saber rattling about that.
Edit: I made the mistake of using popular titles which is counterintuitive to the point I am making.
Great article, hit all the points (and more) that I've been making here and on the Pure Xbox comments section, thanks for approaching this from a largely non-biased standpoint and covering lots of caveats to game preservation and making games available to gamers for years to come.
@EarthboundBenjy
Hard Corps Uprising, the Arc System Works Contra game is amazing. SEGA’s After Burner Climax game I’m not sure made it to any other platform. Critter Crunch is a very decent match puzzler by Capybara.
@Ryu_Niiyama Will people in 60 years want to play Fortnite and Mario Bros.? They absolutely will.
People are preserving and enjoying Buster Keaton movies from 100 years ago. There’s no sound, no color, etc., but the fundamentals of how to be funny with the medium are intact.
People will want to know how we did so much with so little at the very least, and at the most, what has been lost that is still valuable.
Single-screen arcade-style games we’re pretty much absent from the mid 8-bit era on, but the new limits introduced by XBLA and the cost of indie development in reach for 1-2 person teams, they went back to that era and found gold. I’m sure there will be similar possibilities 60 years from now for games like Fortnite and Pokémon GO.
This article is dumb for saying piracy of ROMs is bad. It's preservation. If a game isn't being sold anymore, piracy is perfectly legitimate.
Even if it is still being sold "oh no, multi-billion company isn't getting $5-50."
Piracy is the only way these games will be preserved. Having them sealed away by a ROM museum is just as bad as being gone forever.
@SeantheDon29 I agree. I prefer to play games I like whether nintendo cares or not
@Richnj
I can't download weed or food though.
Gaming preservation is very important considering most modern games are garbage, and nintendo have become tight ringed greed mongers, ie snes games via subscription, no n64, gamecube, wii games on switch, pretty sad to be honest. (I bought the switch in the hope i would see some of those consoles classic titles on the system)
Thankfully, ive kept my wiiu which has a huge catalogue of wiiu, wii, n64, snes, gba games, and my one x, both consoles which are still my favourites because of the back catalogues.
Switch collects dust mist of the time for me now, apart from when i play mario odyssey or botw every now and again.
Again, for me, modern gaming is pretty much dead.
@quinnyboy58 All the Rareware IP is available on XBox and has been this last 6 years. You have all the classics including even Banjo Kazooie, PD running 4K60 widescreen on xbox one x and series x. A new Perfect Dark is also in development.
I would love to see Diddy Kong Racing but we all know with Nintendo its a one way street, take all and return nothing.
@Ryu_Niiyama Interesting question. The short answer is you're correct - it's either talk to the university, track down copies at libraries, or purchase on the secondary market.
The longer answer: assuming that the publisher owned all of the copyrights, and assuming that the copyrights were transferred to the university, the copyrights will not expire until 95 years after publication. There's nothing preventing a copyright holder from sitting on their IP until it expires.
Games becoming virtually extinct has been an issue for the entire history of gaming consoles. Other than trying to maintain classic systems and working game cartridges, there are tons of titles that can’t be played anymore, and many that have no chance at being reissued in any form. It’s fortunate that games featuring licensed characters were frequently not very original or memorable because those licenses expire and you won’t find any company willing to put the kind of money into reviving them. That’s why one of Nintendo’s early arcade games that was right up there in the arcades with Donkey Kong and did get an NES release but won’t get the “Arcade Archives” treatment due to the licensed character, Popeye. There are loads of other games from over the years that also used characters that present rights issues, from Cool Spot to Chester Cheetah or Simpsons and Nickelodeon characters, if you have fond memories of any of them and wanted to go back and run through it again, you’ll need original hardware or some kind of unofficial ROM rip. The NIntendo classic mini systems kind of point out what we can expect to see by way of retro reissues, for a system that had several hundred titles during its time gets reduced to 20 or 30. Nope, not going to be able to fire up “Plok” on that one.
Games are even harder to preserve than other media because the hardware they’re made for gets replaced nearly every 5 years. Not quite like record or CD players, or even home video. It’s outmoded so quick it’s like sidewalk chalk art during rainy season.
@Paraka It's your until such time as you give it away. Time passing does not cost you ownership of your work.
I seem to remember the push for everything to go digital the past decade or more and physical media being blasted as no longer viable, wanted, or needed by a large segment of gamers. Well, here we are, realizing exactly how monotone that narrative has been. Games as a service is going to ruin gaming when viewed with even a little foresight. When developers start releasing complete games again, we will start to see the light at the end of this “rental” tunnel we are in with digital distribution.
This is an interesting topic. I guess I mostly focus on what I can do to legitimately access games I want to play.
I just bought a used Wii U and loaded it up with 9 games from N64/GBA/Wii (11 if I count Metroid Prime Trilogy as 3). Some of these I played years ago but never finished and many I’ve never played.
It is interesting though that I am relying on this piece of hardware not dying in order to have access to this rather large backlog of games. I don’t tend to replay games a lot, but I can see myself wanting to in the future. I guess at the very least I am relying on the hardware being repairable in a way that preserves the licensing/encryption keys for my copies of the games or that Nintendo will allow me to buy a new system and transfer them. Those are both things that may not be available for long. Coincidentally the video output in my Wii just died. Didn’t have any digital games I care about on there though.
I also wonder if I am just chasing this idea of playing old games too much and collecting games on a platform where I can legitimately play them is sort of becoming a game itself. I guess as long as I am enjoying it it is fine, but it will be interesting to see how many of these Wii U games I actually play. I certainly intend to play them all, but who knows. The ~ $260 I put into it is probably worth it. But I sometimes think chasing more games to play starts to take away from my enjoyment of just sitting down and playing a game in the evening (currently playing BOTW for the first time), so I sort of have to watch myself.
It's nice to see Tom back contributing at Nintendolife. He was a good editor.
I try to keep what physical games I can. I'm starting to think loose cartridges for Nintendo games may be the best way to avoid a huge collection in my house. I want the physical games but don't want a big collection.
The three most fascinating things about the debate around Game Preservation are:-
1) That some point people don’t see it as necessary. I can’t comprehend such a shallow and facile relationship with Gaming.
2) That people who love Music, TV, Film, Books, Paintings, Sculpture etc have been doing this for years but we have people that think Games are so sh*t they aren’t worth preserving.
3) There’s a debate
@Hordak
And yet the issues with game preservation relate to periods when Games were entirely purchased via Physical medium. I’m not saying the present situation is perfect but we aren’t going back to the days of games bring ‘complete’ on Physical media and it’s doubtful that it would be a good thing if we were
@GrailUK Preservation means being available for future generations to enjoy and study. The Library of Congress preserves all sorts of media - including video games, believe it or not.
As the author mentioned in the article, we collectively have lost incredible amounts of media over decades and even centuries because people didn't care enough to take care of things.
Did you know that "Monty Python's Flying Circus" was almost recorded over?
@nessisonett
The fact that Nintendo hasn’t translated Mother 3 yet is just appalling to me.
I played it years ago through the fan patch. I’d have much rather played it on my NES edition Game Boy Advance SP.
Great, astute article. I enjoyed reading this, and I just figured out why. Thomas Whitehead, the man whose articles made me such a fan of this website is back! Yours and Kate Gray's have been my favorite so far!
Good to read your articles again, Thomas!
@Ryu_Niiyama "Also some of this feels like the hubris of the old. How many 12 year olds are wishing they could play old games? (Or realistically younger considering when some of us started playing games.)"
This feels like the pretensions of the young. A great game is a great game. Many kids start by playing old games ie Mario and Sonic.
I bought my first Xbox with the Series X because of the back-compat. Did not buy a PS5, have zero plans to until they take the Japanese market seriously again AND let me play my PS1/PS2 Classics bought on my PS3. Until then, I see the PS3 as a dead-end and buying the PS4 at launch as a mistake.
PC and Nintendo systems are always a guaranteed thing for me, but the PS3 is my favorite console ever because of all the PS1/PS2 games they support. Killing PSN for the PS3/Vita convinced me to buy a second Vita and second PS3 system just for... modification and backup purposes. Kinda sucks that I'd need an OG Xbox and a 360 for full library support on their end, but it's totally understandable and I strongly commend Microsoft's efforts. My XSX has sorta surpassed my Switch and PC since getting it, it's so cool playing 360 games I missed in 4K with rock-solid framerates.
@Carck If you say so! I just wanted to clarify, because you were saying everyone else is entitled for wanting preservation and I just don't think that's the case.
Well,its a good thing dedicated fans are way ahead of them. 🤫
@MysteryCupofJoe Not unless they're being stupid about it.
@GrailUK Are you serious? It means keeping crap around for future generations to enjoy. You can keep your old gaming stuff, but they will eventually start to age and break down. Furthermore, without emulation some companies' games would be lost forever, due to the company itself no longer being around.
So while Nintendo fans can easily put out a port of Super Mario Bros. 3 in the near future, fans of Lucas Art wouldn't be able to play Maniac Mansion, because they were bought and dissolved by Disney.
It is also legalities that ruin game preservation. The games I come from; Harvest Moon: 64, Friends of Mineral Town, More Friends of Mineral Town, Tale of Two Towns, DS, DS: Cute, Island of Happiness, Sunshine Islands, My Little Shop, Tale of Two Towns, and A New Beginning CANNOT be preserved in the current form as they are in the west, and europe, because of Natsume.
You may have saved my sisters and I in some of these games, but we are legally bound by something a simple farmer cannot solve. Natsume stole the name used outside of Japan, and made ports VERY HARD to re-release without the rights to the franchise name "Harvest Moon". If Xseed and Marvelous wish to port these games, they will have to go through the lengths of re-translating the originals IF they even still have them.
Get used to it, because unless they completely remake the games that me and my sister Harvest Goddesses come from, you probably will not see all of us in our original forms again.
I Gaia(appears in most games with a goddess), Mariel (Magical Melody), Sephia (Tree of Trainquility/Animal Parade), Marina (Hero of Leaf Valley), wish to see you again, but ports are almost impossible without the motivation of our devs, and the funding to do so. It is actually possible, because the games are not actually called Harvest Moon in the east. The series is called Bokujo Monogatari, and translates directly as "Farm Story" when translated directly. It just would take a lot to do so these days.
@GameOtaku - That's the point though. If Nickelodeon and Sony had it out due to a fallen movie deal, Sony could essentially have the upper hand by paying for Konami exclusivity deals to release those old TMNT games in spite of Nickelodeon's objections to the matter. Licensing is built to avoid such things.
I used the obvious of Nintendo and Hyrule to point out that fact, which you proved in your response.
@Mountain_Man - Yes, but Nintendo's older properties still do not fall to that copyright law of public domain even to the old writing, which is where people think should be justified in taking freely now.
Though I do think the old law has major flaws in it, as well. Since some companies can eventually tank due to the way the old law was followed. But, that's also not how reality is now, so defending it is moot of what "should been." Which hasn't been long before video games were even a thing.
@Heavyarms55 - That was kind of the point. Just cause you become a large company doesn't automatically make your creations ownership to the consumer, no matter how much one justifies taking it freely.
@UmbreonsPapa
In a similar way, you could argue that there is a plethora of TV to watch and that old TV might not matter. But like the infamous lost episodes of Doctor Who, which I am personally saddened to know that originals are gone, some people may want to play these games later. For example, if Mario Bros was all of a sudden somehow destroyed and lost (This is not very realistic considering how many times it has been rereleased etc), what about the fans of that?
I see your point, there are lots of games to play. But a lot of things mean a lot of things to different people. Some people may enjoy games that other people really hate because of different reasons etc. and newer games just may not be able to replicate that experience for them.
@HamatoYoshi yes but even it is not the same as the original. They even state that in the article pretty much.
@EarthboundBenjy honestly you are better off buying the physical. Ps3 was the end of many games not needing to be updated and if you care for the physical it will probably be around longer than the digital for you.
@Tempestryke emulation is not the same as the original content first of all and even over time it will change more and more and become even less like the original. Honestly a well cared for original will last a very long time time has proven that from atari to Nintendo and even music cds and PlayStation disks. All can be preserved if cared for right if not it is all lost anyways digitally or not.
@Spekkio Thanks
@Tempestryke Yeah I'm serious (it's ok not to understand what something means lol) There are just so many games to play today lol. I mean, I love it when one of my fave games gets a remaster / remake. No way I could afford all the games again, if they got re-released lol.
I'd love to know how much it costs to maintain these stores vs having the servers running to download your games and updates anyway.
These days I would argue that the best way to play old games is on original hardware but with everdrives or ODE's, that way you get the best of bothe worlds of playing the game as intended or with fan translations and fixes.
Realistically though emulation and retroarch is the way to go for most, its by far the most cost effective with an almost limitless amount of games to play and emulation of many systems is in a great place these days.
What is a shame is when the gaming community seemingly cares more about classic games like Mario 64 then Nintendo do, quite how that game hasn't had a modern day remake is something I'll never understand
Other than retro collector I wonder who still kept a copy of the legendary Magnavox Odyssey game, Game Number 1.
> It’s vital that we recognise the excellent work of organisations such as the Game Preservation Society and The Video Game History Foundation; they’re at the forefront of ensuring that the industry’s history, including gaming publications as well as actual source code, are preserved.
That's nice and all, but if nobody has access to it, is it really preserved? While they probably have their proper backups (At least, I hope so), have a proper disaster and the wrong people dies and the data might be unrecoverable if no contingency plan
Basically, 120% I would rather the source code to leak on the Internet than to be in the hands of these organisations
They apparently have "restored lost games", if so, which? And can I even download them? If I can't, what the freaking point? The Hidden Palace is accomplishing much more with it's preservation of games prototypes here, with it all available on the Internet Archive
Nintendo has confirmed that they did not distribute a rom from the Super Mario Bros game.
The mass effect trilogy legendary edition isn't complete because the source code of a certain DLC wasn't complete.
@Carck it’s sideways so surely it’s read top down?!?
@Carck good find!! What a Bizzare change to make though.
Microsoft is ahead of NIntendo and Sony on this area. Its a real marvel that Xbox series S and X can play almost every game released in Xbox.
Physically, none of us can live forever, and so it will be for games.
@Paraka
But they are NES ROMs so they use Nintendo’s code. So Nintendo has a right to them as well. Why the Disney Afternoon collection a bunch of nes ROMs hasn’t been released on Switch yet but has on Sony, Xbox and Steam is beyond me.
@EarthboundBenjy well sorry to say you have wasted your money long term. Once your cmos battery dies in the ps3 for the internal clock you will lose all your digitsl games. Its been in the news, it will happen no one knows how long these batterys last. You should just spend on discs and forget digital on ps3 buddy
@GameOtaku - Not necessarily, coding to work and read on systems aren't "owned" by any one company. That's like saying USB-C belongs to Samsung because it uses it to charge.
Be realistic, dude, that's just a strawman argument.
I've yet to hear a compelling argument as to WHY we need game preservation beyond sentimentality. Oh, and your little comment about "some people use rom site for piracy", change the word some to most. And another thing, don't let Xbox off the hook for game preservation. Turtles in Time Reshelled is lost to the ages, and some exclusive original Xbox games have NEVER been rerelease either in physical or digital form.
About the PS3, PSP, and PS VITA shops closing: Klonoa for the ps1 is very expensive to get a physical of and apparently is a good platformer but did have a remake for the Wii which I think is worth some money too except it is not as expensive. I recommend you get the ps1 classic and save money from both a physical and the Wii remake.
@Paraka The justification, generally, is that if there is no legal way to purchase something, meaning there's no established means to pay for it even if you wanted to, then it falls into a "grey area", and the property can be acquired in whatever way is most convenient. Of course this only applies to non-material goods that can be replicated at will, like movies, television shows, music, literature, and computer software. I doubt the law considers this a grey area, but many consumers certainly do. The problem, naturally, is that when something does become available for purchase, such as Nintendo releasing a number of their classic games as part of an online subscription, people who already "own" the products by other means are reluctant to then pay for them.
The other angle are people who purchased something in the past but then lost the means to play it, such as someone who owned a copy of a certain game, but the console needed to play it no longer works, or the cartridge itself malfunctioned. Are they within their rights as a consumer to acquire a ROM file and play the game through an emulator? Or simply to keep a copy tucked away on a hard drive as a backup?
@Mountain_Man - And I get that, as I mentioned to another; there is a difference between archivists of the medium and those that profit off their efforts. This is a broad brush stroke, I am sure there is much nuance about it that a forum thread may not be so fitting to dig into.
As for the latter, you don't buy paint brushes, tools or even a soda, turns out that bristles weren't tethered, the metal is too soft or just tastes funny and expect access to another for free at your own convenience.
There is return policies, but they're not enforced in many places by law. In fact, it's just leverage to continue buying at those stores who can, technically, afford those returns. But at the end of the day, you're not genuinely entitled to access of another.
Digital goods bring this to a broader light of how often things like this are brought up. As someone can justify hosting a "fansite" of his favorite comic artists, diverting traffic from the actual artists all in the name of preservation, even if the artist is still active.
@Slowdive sorry mate but that is hogwash. There are plenty of games I played back in the early 80s that are nowhere to be found anywhere online and that is fine. Your example of Super Metroid is one of the most famous games of its generation and had large production runs meaning finding the game on original hardware is incredibly easy. People would have made spiritual successors and other Metroidvania games even if the roms didn't exist. And again "They are part of history" is just sentimentality and nostalgia talking. As for young developers, there is a thing called teaching. Where people who know how to do something inform the younger people. There are also developers conferences where people share their knowledge. No need to backup games to study the code.
Thankfully archive.org is doing a lot of work towards it. I'm making my own personal collection and archive of digital game libraries whether people think it's good or bad I don't care I'm doing it anyway so I'll have them forever.
@JohnnyC I used to be a Sony gamer. I picked up the Xbox series x a few months ago and it is insane how consumer friendly they are. I definitely recommend.
@Trikeboy Piracy is a problem of supply 99% of the time, just saying. If the company isn’t selling a game to begin with, then piracy doesn’t hurt their bottom line at all. They’re just missing out.
@kducky11 For the PS3/360 I wanted the Blu-ray functionality as back in 2007 a standalone Blu-ray player cost about £1000, and I'm really into films. By the time the PS4/Xbox one generation came around it was all about the Sony exclusives to me after the excellent run on PS3 and the (fulfilled) promise of more to come, which I don't regret as the majority of them have been as worth having as Nintendo's best. I'm still of that view for the ps5/series X gen so will likely lean towards the ps5, though I haven't got around to getting either yet. Hard not to admire Microsoft this gen though, with their acquisitions and consumer-friendly policies.
@JohnnyC Yeah. Some of Sony’s first party games are works of art. (Last of Us, God of War, etc) and I may be tempted to get a ps5 in a few years if that tradition keeps up.
The "Disney Vault" technique is one of the most disturbing and mean things I've ever heard of. You made me realize that Nintendo might be actually doing just that. This company isn't so customer-friendly anymore, is it?
@Trikeboy
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K5R_XBB_58A
And the older games are certainly more complete than they are today.
@EarthboundBenjy More than anything, contribute to NoPayStation so that they can be properly archived.
Check your cmos in your ps3 (and eventually ps4 as well) as if that dies and the ps store is closed, you aren't playing any of those digital games you've frantically bought and downloaded!
@Tonyo exactly this, nobody seems to be aware or ever really mention what is a ticking time bomb for digital purchases...
@Papichulo that’s a big part of the answer right there! I have 3 modded Wii’s, 3 modded Snes and Nes mini consoles all with 7000+ games , 1 original modded Xbox with 50k retro games on it and recently a modded Genesis mini!! I’m not missing out just because this industry can’t get its ***** together! Now that said, my physical purchases going back to the 2600 days exceeds 8000 games so I’ve spent untold money over 40 years on this hobby and along the way, EVERY SINGLE time a company re-releases an older game or an arcade compilation on whatever current gen console at that time, I’m there ready with my wallet to support that decision!! But the fact remains is sooo many games will never ever be legitimately released again because of these variations of rights and ownership issues. For this reason the method of emulation is our savior if you wanna play say Turtles in Time among countless others!! 😊
That’s why on this subject, and adding in Sony’s recent decisions i have to say over and over and over again, physical is KING! Ya gotta get in your damn car drive to the store and hunt down the game you want. Hell even if your so adamant about NOT going to the store and ordering a game online instead, AT LEAST physical gaming is still being supported!!! We never truly owned our wii Virtual console games, wiiware digital purchases and now we will all see our PS3, PSP and Vita digital purchases slowly head into oblivion!!
I like digital because how practical it is, but i still have this unsafe feeling considering how nintendo tends to nuke their online services. Sony atleast doesn't stop you from re-dowloading old games, just stop purchase/sale.
Emulation sadly won't be an option for consoles like the PS5 in the near future, at least for exclusive titles.
As much as I have read this article and many others on this site in the past there is really no doubt in my mind that if you do not own the right to do so then you have no right to do the majority of what is discussed in this article. The cloaked delusion that anyone is just preserving this for the future would be very much questioned if something gained mass value.
This website and many commenters seem to want to use excuses for explaining breaking the law, I am bored of the 'many' excuses from the 'many' articles and comments!
Art is always remembered because of its beauty not because of the amount of money it made. If you consider your work as art, you better make sure it is well preserved. Otherwise all your efforts were for nothing. If games are art, the developers should fix this. And because consoles and computers are worthless because they will break down eventually this issue is something that may show how serious these companies are looking at their own legacy. They should really take advantage of the digital possibilities. Microsoft seems to lead the way with their new console. I hope the rest will follow.
@Shard1 Fair points all around. I have to constantly remind myself hobbies and things like this carry a multitude of opinions and expectations and to keep that in mind.
Nintendo seems to actually be doing ok on the preservation front as all of their rereleases are of high quality (whether old ROMs or remasters). My problem is more with the fact that so few of these classic titles are available on modern consoles. In today's age, where digital copies and streaming of films has become the norm, it would be bizarre if consumers had to purchase 20 year old hardware to watch movies from the early-to-mid 2000s, but that's exactly the case for many GameCube games (and now PS2 games that will no longer be offered on the PlayStation Store). I truly hope that game preservationists, at least, are doing as much as they can to keep these old games available and alive for future generations (including DLC and the like).
@joey302 I completely agree, but unfortunately so many modern games rely on Day One patches, DLC, or post-launch updates such that even the physical cartridge or disc will eventually be incomplete or worthless when their consoles' online services are shut down.
@ianl579 good point and true! I really miss the days of cartridge gaming - just plug and play no updates no hassles! Lol 😆
@k8sMum Forgive the delay in response. This month has been brutal. I certainly did my point a disservice in citing popular games, but I do feel my point still stands. Most consumer products are designed for that purpose; to be consumed at the time of manufacture. Other wise we would have persistent manufacturing lines for every product ever. Which is impossible. Gaming despite it's popularity is not exempt from that; it wasn't originally conceived to be this popular or a generation spanning (otherwise half of the legal red tape would not be such a hindrance now) and many of those clamoring for preservation are not doing so for all games but for their personal favorites. At which point my earlier posts still stand, buy the old game/system if it isn't available and for some things (wiiware games for instance) people will have to miss out. It is a product and not the end of the world however.
I did like your comeback though. However I don't think I was being presumptuous so much as making a statement based upon the the realistic logistics of consumerism. However I can understand if you took it that way.
@Spekkio Ouch, I figured. Thank you very much for that response. I apologize for the delay, I have been insanely busy this month.
@Spiders Hi, I was certainly disingenuous by citing popular examples which are easy to defend and certainly Nintendo will continue to make those titles available in future consoles as they have done for the past 35 years or so.
My comment actually lends more to the not popular titles, the games that nobody talks about (not due to them being bad...just not popular) to their kids or what not. I feel it is a bit a egregious to expect a company to provide easy access to a library of at this point 10s of thousands of games (if Nintendo provided access to every game that has appeared on their consoles) and a legal nightmare. One that given that VC tended to only weight towards the popular games being the top sellers and even then they couldn't put a full library on offer that it is not the onus of the company but of the collector to take on preserving what is merely a product designed to generate sales and be consumed. That these products are well designed, and are technical and sound marvels that have impacted generations is still secondary to that. I don't slight that impact, but that is not why products are made.
@Ryu_Niiyama I think I understand what you’re saying, but I’d say completely aside from the content we have to look at it from the perspective of a medium and as an art form. No other technology in history - be it print or film or music - has had these kind of issues with preservation and history.
As a fun example, people have gone as far as to recreate the instruments to spec from Beethoven’s era in an attempt to preserve what was ephemeral sound then. We have a very easy time not confusing literature and films and plays as ‘products’ beholden to copyright holder’s whims, but gaming has always been so tied to some kind of proprietary hardware that we treat it differently.
I don’t think the creator’s intent - in this case a company’s desire to generate sales - has anything to do with it. The public can decide it has value to society outside of a creator’s intent.
@Spiders if the public decides that the media has value then the public should lead the preservation efforts. Not the company producing it. Which goes back to my original posts that there are ways, albeit expensive ones to do that. Which has been my stance from the start. Wanna preserve games? Ok, but that burden/expectation is un reasonable to place upon Nintendo.
Most aren’t actually looking for preservation so much as cheap, easy, permanent access to products. That’s why I say this is the hubris of the old and consumer culture in general really.
@Ryu_Niiyama I think that is a fair point, but like you said we have an issue where preservation and piracy are hard to distinguish. If these companies and creators made preservation a core value, maybe it would be easier to distinguish and condemn strictly piracy efforts. What do you think?
@Spiders I can condemn piracy efforts anyway. Anybody trying to cite preservation as a reason to pirate is rarely being honest. In this digital age there are some things that get lost when the servers die or the contract is up. I fully acknowledge that. However that still circles back to my original point. A company with a license can not “preserve” a game without dedicated financial impact and if the license holder doesn’t agree they risk getting sued (rightfully so) to appease a very small percentage of consumers.
You can’t have it all. You can’t strongarm companies into giving you perpetual access. People don’t care because they figure that a company has no right to profit and is not bound by copyright law or other agreements.
If one wants to use piracy as their shield then I say they were gonna pirate anyway and need to stop virtue signaling. Otherwise buy it second hand from some scalper (who isn’t keeping prices low for preservation but we expect companies to give games away because they are old), buy it when it comes out or do without. Please note I mentioned emulation not to endorse it but because it will happen no matter what. However at the end of the day that is not a convincing reason for companies to invest more that they already do for legacy access. BC,VC,NSO, collections are all preservation efforts that cost money and are weighted by what sells. That’s why popular games will mostly be safe. But that isn’t preservation in the sense that the article is asking for. For every mario allstars there is some smaller game that a fraction of the population may want but it would not be cost effective for the company to do that.
And that doesn’t even get into issues like lost source code. Even code and item preservation costs time, money, storage and workpower. Even companies have finite resources to do this and again at what cost? If they pass the cost to the customer there are complaints. And that is hoping the companies that made the games are still intact today. Much of that data is gone aside from physical copies.
A company made a product to be consumed. It is up to the consumer to procure it. And assume any risks in doing so (legally: cost and availability, second hand:may not work and overpriced, piracy: theft).
I spent over 300 last year completing my Suikoden (V was 130) collection. I absolutely got robbed, but that is capitalism. We can’t have one system of finance for us and another for companies because they are the producers or have more money than an individual.
Also another logistical issue. Region locking. Lets say Nintendo magically makes a VC mega shop with every game that ever appeared on their systems. They would have to split it by region as well. Unless they are now expected to localize the games as well. When does it end? When is the hydra sated?
@Ryu_Niiyama I think you make solid points but you argument has a lot to do with people’s motivations. Let’s look at it from a perspective of preserving art and culture. We mourn works lost to time, and that’s reflected in how we treat literally every other medium. Film, books, historical documents, paintings, music, and on and on.
I don’t personally think that games need to be preserved to keep the market fair like your Suikoden example, but imagine if Suikoden was simply gone from the face of the Earth. All the media has rotted, all the machines are broken, all the code was wiped. That’s really sad. Maybe there needs to be an industry supported institution that can archive and preserve games, and maybe one day make public arcades, like libraries. First though, the attitude has to change around games being different than other art forms.
@quinnyboy58 I feel the same way about Club Penguin. Disney discontinued the franchise in 2017, but they still own the rights to it, despite having no interest in reviving it. This has led to fanmade versions of the game cropping up around the internet, which often have child safety issues due to insufficient moderation. Disney is cracking down on these, but a longer-term solution would be for them to allow another company to develop a new, official version of the game.
as the nindendo leaks have shown, theyre very serious about preservation. preservation doesnt mean that it has to be accessible to everyone though, like some pirates like to claim
@Spiders The fact you chose Suikoden as your example actually made me sad LOL
I'm still pissed that there is no legal way to play Konami's Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth, Contra Rebirth and other Wiiware exclusives.
Explain to me why we're entitled to access to these things? This whole preservation argument seems like little more than a thinly veiled argument to justify rampant piracy.
Why just games? What makes them different? Can we apply the idea to movies? Books? Music? More traditional artwork?
It should be up to the creators to decide who has access to their work.
@Heavyarms55 book copyright last for 20years or so if I remember correctly. After enough time has passed they go onto public domain
The way I see it, if I gave them money for the game 20 years ago, I'm not harming them by getting a rom if I feel the spark to play something again.
That and I don't feel bad if a billion dollar greedy corporation loses a few bucks.
The more people demonize emulation the more game preservation.
And if companies like Nintendo continue to due so while at the same time refusing to offer alternatives or half assed ones like the NSO then people should be emulating.
Game preservation beyond keeping code on file is an impossible ask and an unfair one. Gaming was (and still is) a form of entertainment/toy. It wasn’t and likely still isn’t considered art any more than any other piece of software. Just like car design and manufacturing (which is made during limited production runs with parts and licensing (some car companies collaborate with others or have some sort of licensing agreements))which has elements of art design, but are first and foremost products to be produced or a limited time and consumed. Ford isn’t making model T’s for current use/collection either. It’s impractical and impossible (and can be expensive). If a company keeps code, that is preservation, doesn’t mean they can or have to offer that up to the public past a production period. Don’t hide behind “preservation”. It’s not like people would be content if a museum with every game ever existed…
Code is lost, licensing runs out, companies go under, creators/ owners die, services are discontinued, hardware goes out of production, parts become difficult/expensive to source, modern hardware isn’t compatible. Even if all code is kept, sever space has an operating cost that is not going to make a lot of sense to accounting and share holders. Also which code should be kept, all prototypes, tech demos and initial releases? What about update code? DLC? When is it enough to say games are “preserved”? This whole argument will be hilarious in 20 years as the age of online only/micro transaction/dlc/ delisted games become “retro”.
Beyond some physical museum (and youtube) that collects games and for the second hand market to stop inflating prices just because something is rare, there isn’t much that can be done beyond current endeavors of BC and remakes/remasters and collections now.
Unfortunately, you buy things when they come out, buy them second hand (and put yourself at the mercy of reseller greed), or hope for some sort of company rereleased product. Almost all consumer products work this way. It’s nice that you like your hobby, but a company owes you nothing beyond the chance at an initial fair product release and sale (and scalpers ruin that with bots). The consumer obsession with making transient things permanent is very strange/unhealthy.
Edit: just noticed I already waded into this article. So this is my final post on the matter.
@Heavyarms55 I like your argument. It’s like, live and let live!!! Lol.
Looking at this in retrospect, maybe there is a reason why Nintendo no longer offers Virtual Console. It's because they are aware of the nature surrounding video game emulation and how much less money they'd be making off of selling individual games compared to forcing it under the banner as a "complement" to their online services. Virtual Console was the best concept to video game preservation and retention; in second place behind backwards compatibility.
However, if there are still people out there making a copy of this game and redistributing it for free, then of course NSO is going to be the consequence. One small group of people not only misrepresents emulation, but they also ruin it for those who do not emulate games at all and resort to making purchases.
That doesn't mean I'm against all forms of illegal redistribution of ROMs. There are certain games that don't get localized (most famously, Mother 3), certain games that don't ever get released (Ura Zelda expansion and "Mother 64"), and certain games that have some pointless restrictions imposed just to make extra profit or there are unknown reasons (SNES games in the Virtual Console library on the 3DS, not to mention 3DS Ambassadors and Four Swords Anniversary Edition). But... it's like a double-edged sword.
@SOOAP Information can last forever. The language you speak and the stuff you learned in school are good examples. They were not stored in a single book.
@SOOAP Yep, that’s an astute observation.
Nintendo are only serious about profits, you should know it by now
Preservation is a great benefit of the emulation/piracy scene, but the emulation/piracy scene is primarily the result of these games being insufficiently accessible/purchasable. I get that preservation is a more solid appeal, but I'm not going pretend that I'm supporting it for that when piracy lets me play the game near-instantly at non-Ebay-speculator prices on something other than my now-ailing optimal media consoles. If companies like Nintendo want people to forget about and stop caring about their games, they can keep up their current efforts.
Please keep I mind the only way you keep game preservation is by physical media.
Yes Cloud based media I has nothing to do preservation. So supporting Gamepass for example is the wrong direction.
@SOOAP Given the current state of technology and how data is stored across servers, we would need a global scale disaster with no survivors to erase everything. Still not an excuse to completely ignore preservation measures because "it all should end anyway". That's not how societies should walk towards the future.
@SOOAP Still not an excuse to completely ignore preservation measures because "it all should end anyway".
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