Hate to get in the way of all the social signalling but just a quick reminder: THEY'RE FICTIONAL.
Stereotypes are bad when you judge individual REAL people by them. They're great for most other things. They allow creators to use commonly known styles and signals that people will recognise to help them understand a piece of fiction. You're not appreciating how incongruous a world like Zelda would be if they didn't rely on cultural norms, not to mention it'd take so much longer to design.
Hate to get in the way of all the social signalling but just a quick reminder: THEY'RE FICTIONAL.
Stereotypes are bad when you judge individual REAL people by them. They're great for most other things. They allow creators to use commonly known styles and signals that people will recognise to help them understand a piece of fiction. You're not appreciating how incongruous a world like Zelda would be if they didn't rely on cultural norms, not to mention it'd take so much longer to design.
That's not quite true, just because they are't real doesn't mean it's ok as it's enforcing and promoting the stereotype but that's applied to more bigoted things rather than non-issues like the Gerudo.
Absolutely nothing. It's just this ultra-sensitive trend in the past few years of looking WAY too deeply into every gosh-darned thing and coming to conclusions that were never even real beforehand. Nowadays, people can find offense in every. single. thing.
It's disgusting.
Well, that argument could be used against every single civil rights cause in history so... yeah.
Not that the gerudo are an issue like that, I just find them a bit weird. Do you all really think that this:
...would make it to 2016 in an HD game and not look rather silly?
Don't get me wrong, I always really enjoyed the bow-sniping areas that the Gerudo tended to populate. They just always read a bit weird to me, what with their being vaguely antagonistic to Link because... why?
For the record, I hope nobody feels the need to get offended about the Nord race in Elder Scrolls on my behalf. I realize the race is based on Scandinavian stereotypes, but really, I'm OK with it.
The thing about the nords is that they're much more developed than the gerudo, with lore and quests aplenty fleshing out their culture. For the latter party to make sense in a modern game they would probably need to be developed more; stuff like why they're nearly all women, when they split from the other humans, their history, etc.
In Ocarina of Time it was weird because you had the hylians as the 'normal' faction, then the kokiri, gorons, zora, and gerudo as the more 'exotic' ones. The gerudo stand out be exception because they're just normal humans; not rock monsters, not fish monsters, not leprechauns, but just humans.
Absolutely nothing. It's just this ultra-sensitive trend in the past few years of looking WAY too deeply into every gosh-darned thing and coming to conclusions that were never even real beforehand. Nowadays, people can find offense in every. single. thing.
It's disgusting.
Well, that argument could be used against every single civil rights cause in history so... yeah.
Yes, if you ignore all context and reality, statements that are made about things in a way that makes sense are similar to statements made by racists. Sorry, extremists exist on an opposite end to racists, those are real people. If you wanna make me legitimately angry, comparing cartoony arab-inspired video game characters to horrible oppression and racism throughout history, is a very, very good way to do so. And the only reason I haven't lost it is simply because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't actually trying to imply that makes him the same as people against civil rights (and you might think that's obvious, but I've seen people make some ****ed up accusations over smaller things that were blatantly (and admitted) backpedaled afterwards to make sure no one can call them out on what they're actually implying)
Even ignoring that that leap in logic in insulting to anyone who reads it.
That's not quite true, just because they are't real doesn't mean it's ok as it's enforcing and promoting the stereotype but that's applied to more bigoted things rather than non-issues like the Gerudo.
I have no idea what that means. My general test for whether something is ok or acceptable is whether it hurts any real people or not. Please explain how stereotypical clothing and cultural styles in a game hurt actual real people.
That's not quite true, just because they are't real doesn't mean it's ok as it's enforcing and promoting the stereotype but that's applied to more bigoted things rather than non-issues like the Gerudo.
I have no idea what that means. My general test for whether something is ok or acceptable is whether it hurts any real people or not. Please explain how stereotypical clothing and cultural styles in a game hurt actual real people.
Do keep up; it fosters a culture of discrimination and divisiveness that hinders society's cohesion. But that's not the issue here to our knowledge, so...
Anyway, great! We're back to being offended. Offended at the vague concept of someone else, somewhere, being offended no less. I bet that makes you guys feel productive. Don't address what I was saying about actual video games, or anything...
Anyway, great! We're back to being offended. Offended at the vague concept of someone else, somewhere, being offended no less. I bet that makes you guys feel productive. Don't address what I was saying about actual video games, or anything...
The thing about second-order offense, as I shall hereby call it, is that it's main aim is to just shut up people who are moaning. First-order offense is usually trying to shut up people are who creating something or saying something interesting. One of those is better
For the record, I hope nobody feels the need to get offended about the Nord race in Elder Scrolls on my behalf. I realize the race is based on Scandinavian stereotypes, but really, I'm OK with it.
The thing about the nords is that they're much more developed than the gerudo, with lore and quests aplenty fleshing out their culture. For the latter party to make sense in a modern game they would probably need to be developed more; stuff like why they're nearly all women, when they split from the other humans, their history, etc.
Actually, the Nords are based on the real life Normans as far as history and culture goes. But visually, they are stereotypical Scandinavians or Vikings. Bethesda went through all the trouble of crafting a deep lore and culture on the Nords, being respectful to their real life counterparts, and then at the end of it decided that the only way the audience would "get" that they're a northern people is if they cartoonishly fashion them on what most people think of when they hear "Viking," who weren't even Norman.
But that's just a thing that happens in any high fantasy. Writers play on what the audience knows about a group of people and uses that to make a race distinct and immediately identifiable. It's not "racist" to make a fictional race of people with dark skin and semi-transparent face veils.
In Ocarina of Time it was weird because you had the hylians as the 'normal' faction, then the kokiri, gorons, zora, and gerudo as the more 'exotic' ones. The gerudo stand out be exception because they're just normal humans; not rock monsters, not fish monsters, not leprechauns, but just humans.
I just find them a bit weird. Do you all really think that this:
...would make it to 2016 in an HD game and not look rather silly?
Don't get me wrong, I always really enjoyed the bow-sniping areas that the Gerudo tended to populate. They just always read a bit weird to me, what with their being vaguely antagonistic to Link because... why?
The Gerudo look "exotic" because they are, from a Hylian perspective. There's nothing else to it.
They are "vaguely antagonistic" because Link, a foreign man, sneaks onto their land. See also: How everyone has treated sneaky foreigners throughout real life history.
For the record, I hope nobody feels the need to get offended about the Nord race in Elder Scrolls on my behalf. I realize the race is based on Scandinavian stereotypes, but really, I'm OK with it.
The thing about the nords is that they're much more developed than the gerudo, with lore and quests aplenty fleshing out their culture. For the latter party to make sense in a modern game they would probably need to be developed more; stuff like why they're nearly all women, when they split from the other humans, their history, etc.
Actually, the Nords are based on the real life Normans as far as history and culture goes. But visually, they are stereotypical Scandinavians or Vikings. Bethesda went through all the trouble of crafting a deep lore and culture on the Nords, being respectful to their real life counterparts, and then at the end of it decided that the only way the audience would "get" that they're a northern people is if they cartoonishly fashion them on what most people think of when they hear "Viking," who weren't even Norman.
But that's just a thing that happens in any high fantasy. Writers play on what the audience knows about a group of people and uses that to make a race distinct and immediately identifiable. It's not "racist" to make a fictional race of people with dark skin and semi-transparent face veils.
Who are you arguing against? Because it certainly wasn't me who said 'racist' or 'sexist' here, only 'weird.' Perhaps you should make that point to said person.
My point was that the nords and gerudo both take inspiration from a historical group, but the nords justify the stereotypical reliance with lore and explanation. They make them fit into the world, which is what Nintendo would have to do for the gerudo in 2016.
The Gerudo look "exotic" because they are, from a Hylian perspective. There's nothing else to it.
They are "vaguely antagonistic" because Link, a foreign man, sneaks onto their land. See also: How everyone has treated sneaky foreigners throughout real life history.
...Except for the gorons, hylians, and (in recent history) kokiri.
Gorons mingle with Hylians though. Goron wares are regularly sold in both Castle Town and Kakariko, so if nothing else, diplomacy and trade are well-established. It makes sense that Gorons wandering about in Hyrule aren't seen as particularly unusual, or Hylians in Goron City. Kokori look Hylian enough that nobody would bat an eye at Link unless they were intimately familiar with "fairy children" stories.
The Gerudo on the other hand are isolated and their only contact with Hylians is... for another sort of trade... Hylians on Gerudo land or Gerudo on Hylian land had never been a peaceful affair until, ironically, Ganondorf appeared before King Hyrule.
I agree that the Gerudo need an update for a modern Zelda game, but I don't think we need the sheer volumes of lore that Elder Scrolls goes for. I think that distinct culture of ethnic groups in Zelda lore would be interesting to portray in more abstract ways, such as art, music, architecture, clothing, craftsmanship, etc. Seeing and hearing different cultures makes it feel like more of an immersive experience than reading about it.
But I'm a sucker for lore, so yeah, throw some books in the game as optional reads, like in Elder Scrolls.
But how Gerudo looked were appropriate for the general aesthetic of the game. Gorons look like living rocks and then there's goofy looking Hylians like this guy:
Or, speaking of Gerudo, the group of Hylian carpenters that they kidnap for sex slaves. Not a single stud among them. Hard times, my friend.
The Gerudo on the other hand are isolated and their only contact with Hylians is... for another sort of trade... Hylians on Gerudo land or Gerudo on Hylian land had never been a peaceful affair until, ironically, Ganondorf appeared before King Hyrule.
Not to mention the intentional or indirect genocide that happens between OoT and TWW / TP.
I agree that the Gerudo need an update for a modern Zelda game, but I don't think we need the sheer volumes of lore that Elder Scrolls goes for. I think that distinct culture of ethnic groups in Zelda lore would be interesting to portray in more abstract ways, such as art, music, architecture, clothing, craftsmanship, etc. Seeing and hearing different cultures makes it feel like more of an immersive experience than reading about it.
But I'm a sucker for lore, so yeah, throw some books in the game as optional reads, like in Elder Scrolls.
That was one idea. And they wouldn't even have to write as many as in TES because not even I end up reading all of those. That or perhaps a conversation somewhere.
But how Gerudo looked were appropriate for the general aesthetic of the game. Gorons look like living rocks and then there's goofy looking Hylians like this guy:
Well, yeah, everything in Ocarina of Time fit within that context and needed to be updated to fit into future games (like the goron merchants in TWW and the goron sumo wrestlers in TP.) They all made sense as they were brought into the newer Hyrules (except the zoras in TWW because they got cut or something, despite being salt water beings.) I dunno how to do that for the Gerudo...
Or, speaking of Gerudo, the group of Hylian carpenters that they kidnap for sex slaves. Not a single stud among them. Hard times, my friend.
Oh god! Was that really the original intent?...
Oh god! Is that how they propagate!?
Oh god! Is that why they're all extinct in Twilight Princess?!?
It's not explicitly stated, but it's there between the lines. It's stated in dialogue that Gerudo were known for raiding Hylian towns at night and capturing men. And with only one male born every 100 years, someone has to be uh... siring folk. Other events in the game go out of their way to make it clear to the player that the carpenters' adeptness in the trade was not highly desirable and they probably wouldn't know how to build Gerudo-style dwellings anyway.
It's interesting that this is a subplot that made it into a Miyamoto game though. I suspect that was m'boy Koizumi's doing.
So Anakin kneels before Monster Mash and pledges his loyalty to the graveyard smash.
@kkslider5552000: Thank you for speaking up for me. When I first saw @Haru17 's comment to mine, well...yea... it was clear he was out to eliminate reason from this little exchange. It was late, and I really couldn't quite believe I was seeing those words in black and white... but then I reminded myself it's only @Haru17, and that guy has long lost my respect.
I know this is a tangent and may not belong here, but it made me greatly sad when none of my 3rd graders knew the Legend of Zelda
3rd grade is 8 year olds right? TBH Zelda games have never been for 8 year olds but my baby brothers know Link and co from the Smash Bros games and they are 10 and 11.
I was 10 when Ocarina of Time came out, and I was definitely extensively familiar with that game...
The 3DS is the most popular dedicated gaming device in the world, especially among children, and has 3 retail Zelda games on it. It's bizarre that an entire class of 3rd graders would be completely unaware of its existence.
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