DartBuzzer

@SetupDisk Regardless of what you think, the overwhelmingly majority of people that try VR have fun and see the potential.

Most people don't buy in because of cost, content, setup difficulty, comfort, etc. But when they are actually using it, it's almost always met with enjoyment. And if you think it will take decades for it to be where you want it to be, you've spent zero time doing research as to how fast it's progressing.

@shaneoh I meant simulated worlds that we can step inside, and what game are you talking about, Dwarf Fortress?

And it's blatantly obvious the benefits VR would provide for any advanced civilization. So long as the starting conditions are the same, there are certain strides that will be made by any advanced civilization. Harnessing electricity is one of them. Inventing a method of transport is another. Inventing computers is another. Inventing VR is another. This cycle will never be broken because it runs off the inevitably of progression.

@WesEds VR can never be a phase by it's nature. Simulated worlds is something that any technologically advanced civilization would strive towards. It doesn't matter how different the path of progression is, you would always end up with VR at the end regardless. It's something that gamers have always wanted as well.

@WesEds Creed, you mean the game? I'm not sure how one game being a gimmick in your mind means much regarding VR itself.

Nintendo can still do AR. Obviously any VR device will do AR and AR devices will do VR and they will just be the same thing over time anyway.

@ChromaticDracula Well first of all, there has never been any studies to suggest sitting close to the TV harms your eyes. It's always been a debunked myth.

As for VR, your focal plane is set to 2 meters, so it's no different than sitting 2 meters away from a TV.

@Heavyarms55 Yes we get it. You have some bias against VR because you got sick or something and are holding that against it. Must be fun to have really outdated opinions to the point where people are literally calling you out as a troll.

Gotta say, it's refreshing to see the people turning against you in the comment section now that Nintendo is doing VR with labo. It brings a joyful tear to my eye.

@Baker1000 Sorry pal, you're going to be waiting for the rest of your life if you think VR is a fad that will pass on. It's here to stay. VR has always been one of the end goals of multi-cellular civilizations hence the fermi paradox. We're still very early, but that fact alone ensures it's always going to be important. Even without some crazy brain interfacing stuff, it's still going to be core to society and that includes entertainment and gaming.

@JDORS VR will be mainstream eventually. Saying it's uncomfortable for your eyes is to acknowledge the vergence accomadation conflict, which is a solvable issue. Prototype headsets have already almost solved it infact. Oculus Half Dome lets you focus your eyes naturally. Eventually light-field displays in VR headsets will make it 100% natural like real life with the only caveat being subjected to blue light which we're all used to anyway.

@Noid I wouldn't be so sure. There are 1st person platformers like Mirror's Edge. In VR, 1st person platforming is actually extremely good and precise because you can do more free-form parkour.

@SakuraHaruka Content is what sells hardware afterall.

@KingBowser86 Your 3D TV adds fake depth cues. It's nothing like VR.

@DFaceG_Rebooted 3rd person works and is immersive regardless of genre. It doesn't have to be just platformers.

@PaperLucario Everyone that tries 3rd person VR knows it has huge value. Try it for yourself and see.

@Franklin It's very clear that the sim community uses it extensively for augmenting their games. Obviously headsets need to improve in various ways before it becomes normal to augment all types of games, but for the early adopters that do this, they are experiencing much more enhanced versions of those games when executed correctly, but with the caveat of using 1st gen hardware.

3D isn't really it's own thing. It's just a 'mode' for content, whereas VR is a medium and effectively a human experience machine, which means it's always going to be relevant. There is more than enough investment now for VR to never fade away again, and will likely only grow exponentially. But as you should know, exponential growth feels slow at the bottom of the curve.

Looks better than I was expecting. Certainly a decent amount of content here, and some of the kits themselves are really well thought out in their use. The sculpting elephant was pretty neat.

@shaneoh "You're either too narrow-minded to be able to break all those components down and see how they can be implemented in a non-S2F experience, or you don't understand game design at all. "

I'm a game developer, and I like to say I think outside the box. Heck, it doesn't even require thought. It's fundamentally impossible on any level to create something that even remotely resembles the game. There is no way animation systems can ever allow you to move freely on any axis, bounce off ways in any direction with pinpoint accuracy, and move in a way that feels intuitive with full independent aiming.

Controllers, mice and keyboards, and screens cannot allow this no matter what.

"You aren't though, you're playing a game. "

The brain disagrees. When you are under the influence of presence, your brain just believes it's real. Also, not all of my examples were even games. Dancing and watching sporting events are not game mechanics.

"I do, and I imagine others would too."

That is a fantasy. If you are imagining yourself playing Zelda in the way you just said, then you are imagining yourself in a 1st person perspective doing the things that Link did, which is just a fantasy and not a recollection of actual events.

"Those fireballs you're remembering throwing, those are fantasy/dream as well, they're not a memory."

So how long is this going to continue? What if I'm literally hooked up the Matrix and shooting fireballs then? Are you going to say "Nope, just a fantasy. Your brain doesn't think it's real" Because that's what your thinking points to.

You seem to think that VR has zero ability to act in a way that feels like an extension of yourself in real life, but as just a game playing tool. Well, I have news for you: it is an extension of yourself.

I highly advise you watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGRY14znFxY

But this is my last response to you now, because you're either trolling or just ignorant of VR and gaming in way that seriously concerns me. What really tipped it over the edge is thinking that you can essentially recreate Echo VR without VR. Please, someone cannot be this delusional, I just can't bring myself to think that's actually possible, and I kind of hope you're trolling.

@shaneoh "Are you kidding? It's First person platforming with a ball to shoot around and a bit of reduced gravity."

That doesn't do it justice at all. Firstly, you can turn on any axis, can grab any surface in the game including players, and can manipulate / move yourself around the surface and push / pull off the surface in any direction with complete precision and immediate timing - and without even looking. (you can float towards a wall while looking in the distance at disc, and then push off the wall without turning to face it)

You have pinpoint accuracy with throwing in 3D space, including the arc and power of the throw, and it's all intuitive. You also have social presence which doesn't exist outside of VR. In the FPS mode, I can hang from the Flamingo payload that moves throughout the level, and can easily manipulate around it to dodge incoming fire. I'm also able to catch a ride on it and aim and fire independently in any direction without even looking in that direction.

So clearly this game isn't possible without VR. You can at best create a game that moves in zero gravity, lets you throw discs, and bounce off walls, but none of it would play anything like the game and it would never be intuitive or work well enough.

"So we are in agreement, we can't do these things in our normal everyday lives, we're still limited and nothing has changed."

If I'm doing these things in VR, I'm expanding what I can do in real life, because for all intents and purposes, these feel like things I actually did.

"Every game I play I feel like I'm doing something, even if it's struggling effortlessly."

You don't effortlessly recall it in the same vain as you do in real life with going to a theme park, or visiting a friend. You remember those naturally, and the same often happens with VR. Outside of VR games, you just remember staring at a screen with your character doing things. If you 'remember' doing crazy maneuvers in Bayonetta, that isn't you doing it, or if it is, it's a fantasy / dream and not an actual memory.

@shaneoh https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/using-virtual-reality-identify-brain-areas-involved-memory/ This describes the use of VR to trigger memories, which in turn points towards VR experiences being stored as memories. I saw another paper that is more specific on this, but I can't find it right now.

"Yes, as someone who understands game design, just so."

Please explain how you are going to do this without VR: https://gfycat.com/pepperycheerfulkitten

You're going to be scratching your head for a long, long while on this one. If you're getting bored of responding, at least enlighten me on this part.

"But it's not, you're still restricted in your everyday activities. "

Nope. I don't play zero gravity frisbee in real life. I don't fight dragons, skeletons, zombies. I also don't go to dance clubs or to sporting events. I can't shoot fireballs. I can't transform into someone else. I do this all in VR. Someone who is totally homebound has an even greater transformation.

"Games are just interactive pieces of fiction."

Yet it feels like you did something, like a memory - in VR.

" Suffice to say, judgement can be made without having experienced the subject on which you are judging."

I didn't realize we were all fit to judge food from videos, pictures, and descriptions. I thought you had to, you know, taste it?

@shaneoh "Any sort of game provides that already, and is just as real."

Research has shown that VR experiences occur in the long-term memory center of the brain. This is not the case with normal games, and it makes logical sense why.

"All possible without strapping a screen to your face"

No. As someone who understands game design, just no.

"To think that this technology is going to give new meaning to humanity is delusional."

Meaning is subjective. The point is that it's a shift in what it means to live a normal human life restricted by the real world. You can be someone else and break the laws of physics - all while feeling like you are actually doing those things.

"There are many games that are unlike any other, that doesn't give weight to the argument that it is virtual reality."

Right, you tell yourself that.

"Doesn't meet most people's perception of what VR is therefore it isn't."

Doesn't matter what people think until they try it. Then they make their judgement.

@shaneoh If you look at game design/mechanics and game experience, it is a total overhaul. Being inside a game means it can turn a game into an actual memory/experience of having done something. That's a fundamental shift in media period, and affects your mind in a way that has never occurred before. The level of interaction, new-found mechanics, new genres it opens is also revolutionary, as much if not more so than 2D->3D graphics.

As it develops, it won't just be a media shift, it will be a life shift. The ability to feel like you are somewhere, doing impossible things, with anyone in the planet alongside you, and to become anyone in this place - that is the biggest shift in what it means to live a human life since the dawn of civilization.

"Pretty much the same thing, but congratulations to them, they made a fun game, it's nothing to do with being a S2F game"

An odd abbreviation to avoid saying VR I suppose. But it's a VR game and unlike any other game in history (aside from a few copycats now), and if it's a VR game, then clearly it's a S2F game if you like to call it that.

"Boneworks looks fun, but it's not VR."

Uhh, Boneworks is VR. You might want to check again. Unless you're saying it's 'S2F'? Making up abbreviations for already established terms is pretty pointless, just saying.

"But it has never been about what S2F will be in ten years time, it's whether what we have now is VR or not, and is definitely not."

Almost everyone who has ever used modern VR agrees it is.

@shaneoh Considering that VR is a fundamental shift in games, entertainment, and media (and this is inarguable), yes it is revolutionary. While a lot of the pieces of the puzzle still need to be put into place for it to be useful outside entertainment, those are the aspects that will greatly affect our lives. If you don't think what this video shows is revolutionary (again, it's not here today, but it will be as time goes on) then you're out of your mind:
https://streamable.com/d01zf

Surely I don't need to convince you it's already revolutionary in gaming? Or are we going to pretend that games like Lone Echo / Echo VR are just the same thing as what we've been playing in the last 10-20 years?

"They can get those outside a screen to the face if that's all they need."

Sure, and yet it doesn't induce presence which makes all the difference. This is like saying "Why play video games? You can just get the same thing as Breath of the Wild, God of War, and Splatoon by playing tabletop D&D!" "Why play D&D with friends? You can just imagine it, and imagine friends too."

Sure, the same thing. Totally.

I'll obviously have the last laugh in the next 10+ years as people start to adopt VR at a large scale, and I'll look back knowing I knew it was going to change our lives in a big way.

@shaneoh Biologically, meaning the brain by nature cannot interpret a screen in a VR headset.

So, if you have tried it, why are you lying to yourself and others by saying it's a screen strapped to your face? Shall I start calling the Switch a piece of plastic?

Again, this isn't about seeing something that is there. It's about believing that something is there. Two different things. It's going to be very hard to induce presence outside of deaf people if you rely only on visuals. Visuals and audio is what enables presence to happen for many people that use VR.

And no, don't start with the whole "But you need smell, taste, touch!" The last one is important and will come in due time, but even without any of these, many people can induce presence. If all you did was increase the specs to human limits, and basically max out sight and sound (and no wires), you'd be inducing presence extremely often for everyone.

@shaneoh Have you actually used VR before, serious question?

Because you have a screen that physically exists, and sure the screen still physically exists when you put the headset on - but your brain is biologically unable to see a screen. It's there, but you can't see it. The screen is just a view into a virtual environment. No longer 2D, therefore no longer a screen.

"If you're weak willed enough to be tricked so easily..."

Many many people are tricked and can have presence induced, and that's at this incredibly early stage when things can only get exponentially more believable.

@shaneoh The screen is still there physically, but your eyes do not see a screen. If you ever saw a screen in a VR headset after putting it on correctly, I can certifiably say that wasn't a VR headset. Having a separate screen with each eye and lenses to focus the image produces an effect that mimics real life, which is why it's biologically impossible to see a screen in VR, once it's adjusted and put on correctly.

"I think the bigger favour is touting tech as VR, when it really isn't."

It is. All known forms of valid descriptions of Virtual Reality dictate it as such. The term was coined by Jared Lanier who absolutely considers what we have as VR, and worked on VR headsets in the past.

If you can trick your subconscious into believing you are in a virtual world, which happens today, then it is VR - end of story.

@shaneoh It's amazing how a screen to your face is so life-changing then - if not now, then in the near future. It must almost be like the screen, wait a second... disappears as you put the headset on?! Magic.

So anyway, what's a gaming console but a piece of plastic and circuit boards? It's really doing a lot of favors by reducing things to such simple statements.

Labo VR is really just a testbed for Nintendo. I'm not getting it, but I'm totally in for when Nintendo drops a high quality headset in 5 years or so with games like Astro Bot. A full Mario game in VR would be a huge turning point for the franchise.

@Heavyarms55 Oh, you poor misunderstood thing. It hurts to be that delusional about the industry, doesn't it? Sad.

@sauce There are plenty of full games. You can't judge a whole platform based on the short time you've spent on it, especially if it wasn't particularly relevant content.

@WiltonRoots Did I not just say that you can dislike it to your heart's content? The problem is when you start siding with people who bash it without reason.

Imagine if someone started bashing Nintendo or the Switch, saying things like "Switch is trash", "It's the worst thing that's ever happened to gaming"? Not very approachable when it's something more dear to you is it? Siding with trolls and and people like that only puts you on their level.

@WiltonRoots Don't be a apologetic for him. The guy literally said 'VR is trash', 'I'll never do it again', 'I wouldn't wish it on anyone' and then talked about how not a single disabled person on the planet can use it.

The guy is out of his mind, and you seek to normalize that? Get off your high horse. Also, to say you never will care is pretty premature; you don't know if you will or won't. But considering the many useful aspects of VR in society, it's risky to say you'll never use it.

You can dislike VR, but when you're siding with someone that trashes it relentlessly, it just makes you stand out as a really despicable person.

@FlashBoomerang Ah, the old motion control comment. This is as relevant as me saying that motion controls have buttons, therefore buttons on all controllers are gimmicks.

They aren't even the same thing at all. Entirely different experience. Pretty sure that parasite has gotten to your brain.

@TheOpponent And who are these people? Tell me, what is stopping them from using it? Are they also unable to play video games? Or unable to drive a car?

There is always going to be a subset of people unable to use a technology, until such a day when we can fix or bypass any kind of disability.

@FlashBoomerang If you think VR is a gimmick, then you've probably never tried it before.

@TheOpponent Being disabled comes in lots of different forms. Plenty of VR games support people who are in wheelchairs. All VR games support people who have one eye. These are examples that clearly throw off your point.

Also, good VR hardware doesn't cause sickness. That is up to developers. Just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean that is what VR is like.

@Dirty0814 Except it's been growing at a rate that everyone basically expected. Therefore, by all accounts VR is fine.

@TheOpponent If VR actually was trash, the games would be trash. Yet we've now got many high-rated games, some even on GOTY lists.

@Astrolorange I mean this is Nintendo. They said that online gaming was a fad.

@dew12333 That's because there was a VR push in 1995 that ended in about a year. After that, there was no real backing, and even during that there was basically no actual funding going on.

Which means there has been a 15+ year gap with no serious R&D going on. Now that it's here, the advancements are extremely fast in comparison to other technologies.

@MrGawain The point is that you can't move even on a micro-scale with this. That's unnatural.

@MrGawain Movement with your body can't cause sickness in the first place. This is actually worse because now you literally can't move which feels unnatural.

@Yosher You're not going to accidentally break stuff with this type of VR.

@SwitchForce Nothing will replace the entirety of real life, but as I said, most people can't afford to travel often. Some can't travel at all. Reality throws up roadblocks.

Therefore, in times where it's just not feasible, VR steps in.

"and you don't have to go far just step outside your front door. "
The Eiffel Tower is not outside my front door. My local town is boring. It's boring for a lot of people. It's also easier to find more common interests with people online than in person.

However, some things will replace real life for people. IMAX theater and night clubs, while they won't be absolutely ancient history, there are going to be people that only do that in VR because you can eventually get a richer / more stimulating experience as virtual worlds don't care about real world physics.

" I already read in another PC magazine I trust to read that Rift had lost some programmers due to philosophy idea differences."
This happens in many companies. Not everyone is going to be on the same page for the company vision. I'm pretty sure you're referring to Brenden Iribe leaving Oculus because he wanted them to pursue a Rift 2 headset that bruteforces the technology at a high price, to get it out sooner than later - rather than wait for advancements to make a Rift 2 cheaply.

@SwitchForce https://www.vrfocus.com/2018/09/oculus-go-exceeded-expectations-states-carmack-reveals-future-upgrades/

Carmack is also never one to mince words.

"using it for mapping places is one thing to find places. But one should actually go there to experiences the world more"

Ideally, yes. But I'm sure you know how expensive travelling is. It's also not instantaneous, some people physically can't travel, and you can't share that experience with people if they are not physically with you.

These won't even be just 'viewings', they will be experiences. If you have a 360 volumetric video live recording of a concert, then you are experiencing something happening at that moment in time. Combined with perfect 3D audio, you would basically get the same experience as being there for real. You could even have VR-specific visual effects which I can assure you, as someone who has attended virtual raves, are out of this world when people go down the rabbit hole with it.

@SwitchForce Not what what you mean with Oculus Go. It has a low price. It's exceeding sales expectations too.

Oculus Quest, yeah it's not out yet, but everyone who has demoed it has spoke about how good the tracking is.

What is your point about Steam? Oculus Rift can access everything on Steam.

"So does this mean you don't have Oculus Rift at home."
What? I just said I use my Oculus Rift at home watching movies with people.

Google Earth / Welcome to Lightfields aren't only related to just education. These are telepresence apps which is a whole use case of VR outside of education. (but can still be important for education like for virtual field trips)

" If the resolution and field of view were higher, it would be completely real."
I can tell you've never even tried the app I'm talking about. Everyone agrees it's indistinguishable from reality aside from the headset specs. This is because it's literally a real life capture fully intact.

https://youtu.be/a-JX3ZPi720?t=206

See? Lifelike.

Hell, there's someone who tried the new Varjo VR-1 headset (enterprise only headset) which is so high clarity that they described as realer than real life at one time.

@SwitchForce Nintendo would be beaten to the punch, as Oculus Go can be taken outside. Oculus Quest is the real deal and can be taken outside. Meaning, it does everything a high-end headset can do and it's not watered down in tracking.

Oculus Rift is the one that's tethered to a PC.

Companies are already applying it to things outside of gaming. Walmart is using VR for training in all of their stores for example. Google and some others are starting to get it into education. Oculus Go has sporting events, concerts, plays that you can watch with lots of people in a big social gathering. I use BigScreen on Oculus Rift to watch movies in an IMAX theater, sometimes as a way to meet new friends. You have plenty of social apps now too, I'm sure you've heard of VRChat. You have stuff like Google Earth for visiting the world too. Welcome to Lightfields is an app that puts you in truly believable real world environments. If the resolution and field of view were higher, it would be completely real.

@BenGrimm People will also lock in the future as if they have the facts when they don't. This is happening often in this thread, the other threads on this site, and everywhere else on any forum discussing VR.

"Plus I’m not sure how you can correct someone on future events when you don’t know what’s going to happen yourself?"

There are literally fixes to things that are in consumers hands in a matter of months. Most of the problems for VR can be solved very fast, because a lot of it has been figured out and is just about getting it ready for consumers. Much of it has been shown off already; it's not just empty promises.

@shaneoh "A pair of sunnies isn't going to convey touch, taste and smell. Until they manage to implement all five senses, then it isn't a virtual reality."

You also said that taste of food isn't even enough; you need to be able to kiss someone.

Your conditions for it to be suddenly VR are utterly preposterous. You even said you don't fall into the trap of needing it to be the Holodeck, yet you bring up foreign Sci-Fi concepts like being able to taste virtual food. That's pure sci-fi fantasy at this point. Everything else isn't for the other 4 senses, but that is.

@shaneoh You said it yourself. Now you're moving goalposts.

@BenGrimm No, I give people pointers towards the future without devaluing their opinion of what it is currently like. I also correct people who say 'X will never happen given an infinite amount of time'.

People often look at VR and say, nope, that can never work. You seem to be fine with that. Since I actually value the integrity of information, I step in. You have a problem with this. For whatever reason, you do not like facts being corrected by me.

@BetaWolf He actually does. He expects 5 senses to be stimulated otherwise it's not virtual reality. This includes taste, and apparently if you can't taste, it doesn't fit the bill.