
During 2016 we provided a few status updates on CEMU, essentially the Wii U spin on the Dolphin emulator - in spirit at least. A team of enthusiasts has been working on running Wii U titles on PC, and results range from playable to sketchy; progress was certainly made, however.
The release of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild on Wii U has undoubtedly been a key point for the emulator, though. Pretty much right after launch the game was ripped and plugged into CEMU, and was sort of functional - a low framerate and a series of bugs and issues with the game's physics meant it was very limited in performance. The team behind the emulation, though, stated it wanted to get the game playable within a couple of months.
Recent updates have been making rapid progress, though, and interest has been spiking. A Cemu Patreon page has nearly tripled in numbers of backers - at the time of writing drawing in just under $22,000 per month - in the past two weeks. The CEMU team has evidently been using these resources, as it set off a lot of excitement on its Subreddit with the following video.
Breath of the Wild, as the final blockbuster Wii U release, is naturally at the core of what the CEMU team is now trying to achieve. In a little over two weeks the game has gone from being a buggy proof of concept to having relatively solid physics and a playable framerate; the sheer size and scope of the game mean the emulated version will have a way to go yet, but evidently the building blocks are in place.
Nintendo, officially, is naturally opposed to emulators, though little action - if even possible - has been notable in all the years of the Dolphin emulator - which is still making strides of its own - and in the progress CEMU has been making in the Wii U generation. Nintendo is against emulators, but isn't actively pursuing or able to do anything about them, it seems.
It's all a notorious grey area, of course. Browsing the emulator's sub-reddit, plenty say they've bought a copy of Breath of the Wild in order to have done the right thing, before then dreaming of playing the game in enhanced form on their PCs. Of course, the act of ripping the game files itself means using a modded Wii U and unofficial tools, so that's all violating user agreements. Some, inevitably, use emulators and related tools with no intention of buying the originals, hence the accusations of piracy and theft that then get voiced. Meanwhile the effective monetisation of CEMU, through that Patreon, perhaps opens a separate can of worms.
Ultimately, emulation like this is still relatively niche, and you typically need a powerful PC to even get modest results (as some definitions of 'cheap PC' in the scene attest). Intriguing on a technical level, it'll be fascinating to see how far this Breath of the Wild project goes, and whether it continues its progress undisturbed by takedowns and legal notices.
[source pcgamer.com, via eurogamer.net]
Comments 116
your kidding me, these people are getting MONEY for creating an emulator (now i know that emulators themselves are OK and have many uses but lets not kid ourselves, people use them to play pirated games)
if you wanna play Nintendo games then BUY A NINTENDO SYSTEM!
try actually supporting the company
My PC is not for something like that !
Geez....
The Mighty Power that means Nothing for me if... misused for something like that.
I would respect developer if he'd open source his project, but there is something differently not clean there.
@FullbringIchigo
I'm in your side too.
Support Nintendo = Buy their products.
Not by pirating their products.
Humans lost their humanity for a cheap and illegal ways like that.
Why would this site "promote" thieves and pirates? Looks like this will be another site that I wont be visiting if this continues.
Completely iffy no matter how you look at it. I just hope the loss of money Nintendo could have had if this project hadn't been a thing, isn't much.
Seriously though. If you support the actual company - more games come and you can continue to experience them all as usual. Don't support the company but support crap like this, and the company will not only be making less games but the company itself could come crashing down at some point in the future. Which means no more games from them. Period. And that means the emulation of new games stops there.
It's literally a no-brainer what people should be doing, yet these morons are getting 22,000 per month for this trash? Smart move, guys. Smart move.
They will be shut down now that they are asking for money to fund it.
Why is this promoted on "Nintendolife"
These kinda articles makes me dislike this website.
Something tells me that Patreon will come back to haunt them. I feel like it's a bit harder to start up and succeed in a lawsuit against some folks who just happen to be working on a project from their house and posting it online as a hobby. But publicly taking (fairly large sums of) money, and using your development of a way to pirate Nintendo's newest major title (considered by some as a new contender for greatest game of all time) as your advertisement for that money seems like a very, very bad idea.
Without caring to participate in the otherwise pointless debate about the ethics of emulation, publicly taking money for the ongoing development of software designed to help people pirate Nintendo's newest crown jewel seems like an incredibly stupid idea. I hope they're ready to have a friendly chat with Nintendo's legal team.
I'm not against emulators,they have their purpose but this is just wrong.Using a brand new game as their goal and asking for funding to achieve it is just plain wrong.Hopefully their greed will come to back bite them and Nintendo send their legal team in.
Well, emulators do keep Wii U games digitally around forever instead of having it die out. Good for preservation and given that new Wii U games are almost sold out only second hand sellers will see profit, not Nintendo. This isn't actually harming Nintendo profit wise even if the method is controversial.
Why don't companies like this go back to credit card fraud and leave our games industry alone, hackers!
How bout not posting these types of articles that support piracy?
$22,000 a month? For stealing Nintendo's hard work? This should result in a conviction like other forms of theft, not just a cease and desist or fine.
My friend has been playing Zelda this way on PC, I find it funny as he's currently playing at 1080p whereas Im capped at 900 on the Switch! Its really amazing how much of the game they've got working, only 18 Shrines are unplayable!
Should not get any money, instead should be giving to nintendo
How about you don't bring attention to these losers?
I don't care if people emulate GameCube. Aside from a couple remakes Nintendo isn't currently selling any GC games.
But this is a game that is less than a month old. These guys need to BTFO. Especially f they are making money on it with patreon.
I have a friend who's already been trying to play Breath of the Wild on his PC.. I completely chided him for this as you can't be a fan of a game series, then actively take money away from the next game. All game developers plan investments in the next game based on money received from the last...
@Bsham Those that already own Wii U games can keep hold of them, those that want them in the future will likely be able to buy them on the Virtual Console (whether the Switch or what's next). I'm not 100% opposed the to the "backing up" concept emulation is based on... but this particular project is JUST taking money away from Nintendo & future Zelda projects.
Lets not forget, game cloning & emulation (for the PSP) caused Sony to use a propriety & expensive memory card for the PS Vita... how did that work out for Sony portable fans?
If you don't agree this article should be posted on this website, the best thing you can do is ignore it and not comment on it. At the end of the day, articles like this are created to draw in traffic to the site.
Personally I'd have articles like this than non-article, affiliated link shopping lists that get put on here every weekend.
All for emulators for content that is not available or hard to access. This though, on a brand new game, tied to the release of a brand new platform... well, it is just taking money away from devs and Nintendo who are they only ones to produce this type of content.
To argue that this isn't taking money out of Nintendo's pocket is absurd. it's one thing to use emulators for out-of-print games and abandonware (or games that you actually own a physical copy of), but this game is obviously still in print, it's a flagship AAA game that was released less than a month ago and is definitely a huge tentpole in Nintendo's revenue for the year.
Emulation has always been a big grey area for me. If you rip your own ROMS and ISOs then fine you are creating a backup of your payed for software. That and for some it is the only way to experience titles like Terranigma (in English) in North America or other JP/EU exclusive titles.
However, Breath of the Wild is a brand new game on both the Wii U and Switch and using it to advertise development and Patreon for an emulator to be used to pirate the game, that is different. I find it from morally grey to just greedy and wrong.
Let's all hate them now but thank them after 15 /20 years
I'll definitely be ripping my wiiu disc once they get it 100% stable to play it in 2K or 4K. I don't see the wiiu being hooked up this summer, but my PC will definitely be on.
@Wexter I agree. 👍🏻
BOO
this stuff is pretty cool for those who are into it and i doubt this is really a draw for the cross-section of people who both want to play it and are willing to buy nintendo hardware to go this route instead of rather than in addition to buying it.
PC owners must be really eager to play Nintendo games if they're paying that much money each month to an emulation team.
The dolphin emulator has probably only barely gotten by without issue... this, however, is going to draw a lot of attention, so I expect Nintendo will take action against it.
Welp, this is gonna get shut down soon.
Sigh, had kinda hoped you wouldn't report on this, Nintendolife... Any kind of exposure is good exposure for CEMU. Don't give them exposure. If anything, send Nintendo a mail about them, in hopes that they'll be shut down asap.
"It's all a notorious grey area, of course." No it is wrong and Nintendo Life should not be promoting them.
Dear, Tatsumi Kimishima. Please take a look that piracy and do something serious against that pesky company. Shut it down ASAP ! Thank you...
violating a user agreement doesn't necessarily mean you're violating any laws (which is the only important thing).
@Anti-Matter what company? this is being made by people all over the world in their free time
I think emulation is okay if you own the games you're emulating. But that's not always the case with everybody else. Most people who emulate just download rom and iso files and play games for free on their cell phone or computer. I can garuantee that most people who are going to be playing Breath of the Wild on their computer won't actually be playing their own rips of the game. They just downloaded it online and play it for free.
Also why did they take money for development? That's going too far.
@manu0 People are throwing tantrums because they have a patreon page and are showing their progress using the money people have donated on a game not even a month old on a system Nintendo has already abandoned. I get it, but at the same time complaining will do nothing. Even if Nintendo steps in and shuts it down, someone else will pick up the pieces and finish it. Maybe Nintendo shouldn't have been so quick to officially announce they're done with wiiu. Why would anyone want to go out and spend $300 on an abandoned system?
The world of emulation can be an ugly one. On the one hand it can make available certain games that are difficult to get hold of playable; I mean if someone wanted to play the SNES game Terranigma, what'd you think would be the most "reasonable" way to currently play it?
In this case however, we have a recently released game that overall is not exactly impossible or unreasonable to get a hold of with perhaps a bit of saving (you can argue the same for the Terranigma example but would many feel alright coughing up £150 for a single game?) Furthermore, there is no denying that Breath of the Wild's code is Nintendo's and the modification and such to play the game on the PC is against licensing agreement.
What's worse, actions like this only are starting to further unfortunate views (at least amongst myself) that certain elements of the PC Gamer crowd are merely greedy and want to play every game there is but only on their chosen platform (a rather childish viewpoint if you ask me). The notion that you can have everything you want and as you like it is just a fallacy and I only hope people come to realise this sooner. I've bought consoles before just to play a specific or small number of games. If they are not willing to pay for such experiences, well just suck it up then or hand over the "entrance fee".
This is one case I do wish Nintendo's legal team comes down on it and comes down hard.
Good gravy I'd love to be able to play this at 60fps in at least 1080p.
Shows how in a pure business sense, it really was a mistake to release the Wii U version alongside the Switch version, if at all. Nintendo needs every incentive to push people to buy a Switch and it certainly doesn't help that the best reviewed game in years is about to become one of the most pirated, which wouldn't be possible with the Switch version at this point.
I personally don't care if people emulate old games since companies aren't profiting from them anymore. But downloading brand new games I don't support since that is hurting them.
@Kriven That's like saying people who create reproductions of classic paintings are the only ones preserving the art form.
While I support the existence of emulators for history's sake, I think this is not good at all. Focus on older hardware and games that are not being sold anymore. Why would you not want to support the people that create what you presumably like in stead of potentially undermining them?
Absolutely amazing! I'm going to play Breath of the Wild on the best system - the PC. It's already possible to play this game in 4K resolution.
I've already dumped my other Wii U games. Hacks or mods aren't needed as this article suggests, you simply need an Internet connection and a Wii U.
Everyone is freaking out, but keep in mind you will need a fairly expensive computer to run this properly.
I had no idea what Cemu was... until now. Thanks to NintendoLife. I don't own a high end PC or anything. But surely this site shouldn't be endorsing a Wii U emulator just because the system is only now out of production?
@FullbringIchigo Emulators are more common in countries without good prices for games in comparison with what people can afford. I think there are some countries with this scenario, but I speak in behalf of Brazil, which nowadays doesn't have official Nintendo market, and even when there is one, the prices is much above PC games, for example. I think there are more taxes for console games, but for sure console companies try to get more money.
Knowing NintendoLife, causing an uproar over the posting of this article will only encourage them to do similar in the future. Isn't it about time for another article on whether the Switch really needs apps like Netflix or a web browser? We've already got our left joy-con article for today and we had a "scratching dock" article yesterday.
@Equinox It doesn't matter if they have a patreon account or not, this would've happened anyways. Might have taken a bit longer, but it was inevitable. I don't see how they're scamming people when they've made no guarantees on, well, anything. They're showing progress being made based on what they can do with their free time. This isn't a Kickstarter project.
Everyone needs to relax. If they bought they game, they can legally play it on whatever platform they choose to.
You all know that reporting something is not endorsing right? No need to act high and mighty like a teenage who recently discovered he/she can be a paragon of light in this dark world.
I swear you guys come off as childish as the things you deride.
@RickRau5 Not true. To emulate a Wii U game you must bypass it's DRM encryption, which is illegal in the US. Therefore, Emulating Wii U games is illegal here and possibly in other countries as well.
@MarioPhD I doubt it. There is already legal precedent that a properly reverse engineered emulator, even if commercial, is legal. Sony sued two companies for selling Playstation emulators (Connectix and Bleem) back when the Playstation was still their latest console, and which games they could play was definitely advertised. Sony lost both lawsuits.
As long as CEMU has been reversed engineered in a legal manner (needs to be done clean-room), Nintendo can't do anything about it. Nor do I see anything wrong with that, so long as people are using the emulator to play games that they've legally purchased.
Of course, many (most?) people using the emulator probably aren't using it to play games that they legally purchased, but why should those people have any impact on people who do want to do it legally?
@Guspaz nailed it. Thank you. Great comment👍🏻
@ACK It depends. If the emulator only works on ISO files that have already had their DRM stripped off, then the emulator is in the clear, because it does not support and is not involved in the act of circumvention. Even if it did support the DRM, the DMCA says distributing something capable of circumvention is only prohibited if that is the primary purpose of the product, and an argument could be made that the primary purpose of the emulator is to play the game, not to read a disc. But since I don't believe CEMU supports real Wii U discs, the DRM may not come into play at all.
I don't think this can even be legally lawsuited. Patreon if I'm not mistaken is just a method of donation rather than contract/business profit. Its why the free use claim for copyrighted content uploaded on youtube gets abused and monetized every day through patreon. I don't believe nintendo could lawsuit the emulator anymore than it can lawsuit patreon as a service.
I'm completely against this, this is in fact abusing a service to get around an illegal act of piracy, without it being piracy in context of law. (free use of a product they purchased)
This is fantastic news! We may actually be able to experience Breath of the Wild in full 4K without the abundant frame rate drops that both the Wii U and Switch versions are forever held back with by the end of the year! How exciting!
@Guspaz Well, I guess I mispoke, my bad. The act of ripping a Wii U disc is technically illegal, which is the only way to "legally" emulate a Wii U game through CEMU.
@ACK Right, but as long as CEMU has no involvement in that process (as in, it's not something the software is capable of, and it doesn't ship with any tools that are capable of that) then they should be in the clear.
@darien It is exciting, but you still need to purchase the game as well... Else you're bragging about being a stinky little pirate
I own a Wii U and bought every game I could think of for it. This new CEMU emulator is great though, because it means we'll be able to enjoy our Wii U games far into the future (long after our gamepad's are so dead they won't start even when plugged in). Just like I bought every SNES and Genesis game back in the day, but now can enjoy them thanks to emulators. Emulators preserve gaming history long after publishers and licenses are expired.
I don't understand all the negative posts here saying things like "they shouldn't get any money, Nintendo should get the money".
Sure, pirating the game is not ok, but that's not what this is about.
Some people just read the word 'emulator'' and automatically assume it's about piracy instead of actually reading the article.
And btw, emulator's are not a bad thing per se, they are actually used in software development and QA and - guess what - even the Wii U has it's own emulator, called the Virtual Console.
It also makes no sense to donate the money - which is intended for the software development of the emulator - to Nintendo.
Where's Nintendo's loss if someone buys the game for Wii U/Switch and then wants to play it on their PC? Nintendo doesn't lose anything because that person already bought the game.
Similarly, someone who doesn't own a Wii U or Switch can't buy the game. So if they play a pirated version on their PC, it's still no loss for Nintendo because that person wouldn't have bought the game anyway due to the lack of the necessary console.
If anything, it is free advertisement for Nintendo. Because those people who don't own a Wii U or Switch actually get a pretty decent look at the game and might want to buy a Wii U or Switch to play it properly.
On the other hand, anyone who has a Wii U or Switch already has bought the game.
Hence getting worked up about emulators is really stupid.
@yuwarite Actually I pre-ordered the Switch with the Breath of the Wild in January, the night of the reveal, so I already own both. And the idea of playing it in 4k without frame rate drops is very appealing. Not only that but using CEMU, you can back up your save file and have multiple save files easily, another feature lacking on the Switch.
@Paddle1 Nah, NintendoLife just needs an article called: "Is the Switch Sexist?" if they want some serious clicks.
I'm ok with them making an emulator. But I think the way they're advertising their patreon is shameless.
They're using a hot new game like Breath of the Wild to promote people giving them more money and specifically only putting effort into that game alone to basically leech off its current hype. All the while games like Paper Mario: Color Splash still have graphical glitches.
If they're "preserving" games then they'd be focusing on perfecting the existing library. Not making a mad dash to emulate a game that hasn't even been out for 3 weeks, I mean if it's all about preservation what's the rush for Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild?
@UK-Nintendo
I have no problem with ripping the game. My issues comes from distribution of it. Also, it's technically not preservation (if that's why we're supposed to thank them) because they are editing CEMU's code as well as thas game code.
It'd be funny if Nintendo would have added a bug that would brick people's PCs using the game data.
Also, now that's money involved they will garner more negative attention from Nintendo. I'd expect to CEMU's creators to receive a takedown order from ninty any day now.
In general, I have nothing against emulators. When used to play older games that are either hard to find or outrageously expensive, I don't have any problem with it. However, with a recent game like Breath of the Wild, we all know what will happen now....
@Dr_Luge That is where I have the problem. Let's be honest if we were to servery people who use emulators and I bet 90+% would say they don't rip their own ROM/ISO Files. I also, bet those who do it for modern systems also don't buy the software to begin with.
I mean I have no issue with older titles that are hard to find or outlandishly expensive, or even fan patches for JP titles. What I have a problem with is people asking for donations to make one specific hot title emulate-able when the rest of the library still runs in a close to unplayable state and state this is for "preservation". I bet most of the people donating have no intentions of buying a Switch or buy BotW.
@Araquanid That's what I thought, but apparently (if I'm not mistaken), Nintendo was able to take down the patreon of the Super Mario Bros. Z creator as he was attempting to revitalize the show on YouTube.
@shani Took the words right out of my mouth.
The side of the argument that you didn't address though is people taking issue with the legality of all of it. Some people are just obsessed with staying within the confines of the law when it comes to a certain issue but all of them are complete hypocrites (breaking the speed limit, as a small example). For emulation it's fine if individuals abstain - that's their choice. The second they try to impose their opinion on others however is when they start abusing their opinion.
@CartoonDan You are incorrect in your statement. It is both morally and legally a grey area.
Also, as a quick comment, people are misusing the word "wrong" more often than not. "Wrong" in this argument relates to two subjects which people confuse with each other:
Morally wrong
Legally wrong
The two are not interchangeable.
I am perfectly fine with ripping your GC/Wii/etc. library to your computer for personal preservation purposes. Hell, I fully support the development and progress of CEMU, minus the donations, and since the Wii U sold so horribly, but ONLY when you own the original discs. ESPECIALLY WITH BOTW. IT PISSES ME OFF TO COLOSSAL EXTENTS WHEN PEOPLE DOWNLOAD THE ISO AND THEN ATTEMPT TO PLAY IT ON THEIR PC, ESPECIALLY WHEN AONUMA AND HIS TEAM SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS, POURING THEIR BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS INTO QUITE POSSIBLY THE BEST GAME OF ALL TIME.
AND THEN THESE RATS JUST DOWNLOAD IT FOR THEIR OWN ENJOYMENT!
THEY MUST DIE!
@ProjectCafe Yes, those that downloaded the game (even if they already paid for and own the game) totally deserve to die. Heck, forget identity theft, murder, soliciting drugs, physical abuse - not paying for content that should be paid for is the worst of crimes, therefore deserves the most extreme of consequences!
Ah, that fulfills my satirical quota for the day.
@Urameshi
https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom
Oh, how I love this site.
@NESguy94 well If you distribute it. That's just plain piracy. Ripping dumping your own games ok for your self buy sharing it online is the biggest problem
@ProjectCafe Oh woops, you're right. It says right there in big bold letters:
"If you download an ISO of our games, you deserve to die. This being the case, we will hire a hitman with discretion."
Honestly how could I overlook that? I need to stop skimming.
@MarioPhD Actually Tony Hawk is the greatest game of all time according to some, so this greatest game of all time doesn't hold much wait. There is a saying: beauty is in the eye of the beholder, think about it.
@TrumpsHand No profanity on this site please, that post was unnecessary.
@Urameshi I couldn't agree more to the argument you added about that double standard.
Also agree on the difference between morally wrong and legally wrong.
@shani @Urameshi
Oh please. You people actually think I think that people need to die because they steal?
You two aren't very familiar with the internet. Or with the phrase "YOU MUST DIE!". At all.
Sad.
@ProjectCafe Huh? I don't know what you're talking about. Nobody said anything about dying.
Did you mean someone else maybe?
@shani
Sorry, I thought you were agreeing with another comment of his.
@banacheck ..... Okay....?
While I do think adding support for Breath of the Wild this close to the release date is in poor taste, I can't really fault the logic behind that decision. Doing so is a strong testament of the CEMU team's skill and I seriously doubt they would have drawn in as many donations had they not. Wouldn't you want to be able to pursue your passion on a more full-time basis? The funding should enable at least one of them to.
Legality-wise, the US court system has ruled in favor of emulation in the past but I do think it is unwise to "poke the bear." Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo attempts to threaten Patreon into freezing the funds coming in. But who knows, maybe this will lead to a big Supreme Court case with the EFF defending and technology companies will finally be forced to stop eroding our rights as consumers. One can dream, right?
@Tyranexx
Plus, with a system like Wii U that is still in retail stores (albeit phasing out) they are literally stealing directly from the insanely talented developers that made this happen. People constantly have this mentality that "Evil Corporation Nintendo" represents all of the Nintendo so they are justified in theft. Some PC critic/youtube star was promoting theft of Nintendo products because Nintendo made him take down some vids all anal-Nintendo style. Sooooo if a guy runs into my car I have the right to steal his girlfriend's Ipod? People need to grow up...
@ProjectCafe I don't like to make assumptions about age or life circumstances, but from your immature responses such as "sad" or the general statement "You two aren't very familiar with the internet" leads me to believe you're a kid. Both of those comments are recklessly condescending and purposefully inflammatory with no other purpose than to fill space.
Your first comment lacks any hint of humor or irony so the only logical thought is to take it seriously. Do you understand how many angry people there are out there in general? Do you understand the meaning (or a lack of) text can carry without a voice behind it? Think about how you say what you say next time before you say it.
"You two aren't very familiar with the internet. Or with the phrase 'YOU MUST DIE!'. At all."
When I see someone use something along the lines of "they/you must die," they do it in an ironic/comical/exaggerated way as to make it obvious that they aren't serious. Either you were serious but are denying it, completely misused the sentiment, or are trolling.
Also you posted a link to the Nintendo site with legal information regarding ROMs/ISOs. This had nothing to do with anything that you said since, according to you, it's people's blatant disregard for the hard work companies put into games such as Breath of the Wild.
In addition to this, you condemn downloading ROMs/ISOs but don't say a word against buying used games from independents or borrowing. By your logic, these people are just as "immoral" as those downloading ROMs/ISOs.
In summary, you don't seem to have a firm grasp on what you are trying to argue.
Instead of attempting to copy what others do on the internet like a parrot, contribute to topics with logical points of view and/or arguments. If you are trolling however, I apologize for wasting these ernest statements and will continue to waste my time elsewhere.
The thing is, I'm completely ok with emulation after the device that is being emulated has been gone for a few years. For example all the old console emulators and MAME emulators years ago when all the devices had pretty much stopped existing other than as overpriced VC products and even with those really small pool of products available.
Cemu on the other hand would be ok in a few years time if it became as good overall as other old emulators have during the years.
What however I am not ok with is that they are now doing the emulator purely on trying to get BotW running on PC, and the game came out three weeks ago on current and next gen consoles. So it's effectively piracy, I don't care that people on gaf and elsewhere say that "they are just making a backup of their own Wii U copy to play it on PC" because most of the people using Cemu are doing because of piracy.
The worst thing about Cemu devs is that A) it's closed source so not even open source for development, B) They are taking money for it, and insane amounts also. So basically they are doing copyright infringement and trying to cash in with it. That's why I suspect they will be getting hit and hard by Nintendo and that's completely understandable and also expected.
Cemu should exist in a few years time for exactly game preservation purposes, but not now when the only point of it is piracy and trying to play the hottest game in the gaming market for free on PC.
@Kolzig The most central question to game emulation seems to be "If a company can still make money off of a game, is it acceptable to emulate it." (e.g. emulating an NES Mario Bros. 3 ROM but it's currently for sale on the eShop). A difficult question to try to answer.
It most certainly is unjust that the CEMU team is trying to monetarily profit from Nintendo's hard work by using Breath of the Wild as bait, but I would call into question what percentage of those people contributing:
-already own BotW
-are going to get BotW
-refuse to buy BotW
I would think the third would actually be a rather low percentage. It takes a decently beefy PC to handle modern/recent emulation well, and honestly, if someone has the money for a PC like that and they're interested in BotW, why wouldn't they just buy a Switch? (When more are available anyway)
Nintendo seems to have figured out a pretty good way to combat piracy though. The Switch's pick-up-and-playability is an amazing feature all in itself. The mere fact that you can wake the Switch and continue playing your game where you last left off within a few seconds is staggering (not to mention putting it into a very low power-consuming sleep mode without having to even save). In addition to that, it's a portable console you can take anywhere. Only a pricey laptop could dream of attempting that currently and it still wouldn't be able to compete with the Switch's small form factor, power consumption, and general convenience.
I believe this has been said numerous times before (though I don't know where), but the adage "You can't stop piracy, so offer more than it can" seems to be what Nintendo is embracing, and the Switch is a great representation of that.
Why do we keep posting articles about something that Nintendo considers illegal as if it's just cool?
@Mortenb Even doing it for history's sake is sketchy because no one gamer is under obligation to do so. It's not our responsibility and we lack the authority.
The act of ripping your own games for backups may violate the user agreement, but that part of the user agreement itself is an example of trying to bend the law to their will. Neither US or EU law restricts copies for personal use with no mass sharing or sales involved, and EU law goes further by guaranteeing that people can back up data from products they own, both physical and digital, without risk of infraction. User agreements are not blood contracts, they do not overwrite governmental law.
Cemu is coming along nicely! Still issues with BotW in 1.7.3d, but hopefully 1.7.4 will bring even more much needed improvements. I don't expect an inproved play experience over the original Wii U version until 1.7.6, or thereabouts. I'm not a fan of Patreon, though, and I think that draws too much attention for something like this. No open source is also disappointing, hopefully they will open it up later.
@Urameshi Good posts! And yeah, Cemu is poorly optimized for BotW right now, so even if you have brand new components, you're still not consistently getting above 20 FPS at the moment. This isn't going to be a very playable experience for some time yet. So one has to buy the game to enjoy it right now.
@shani Drawing differences between legal and moral right? Now you're getting into some D&D stuff. Cemu is Chaotic Neutral at worst, but of course most people here default to labeling it at Chaotic Evil.
@KainXavier "But who knows, maybe this will lead to a big Supreme Court case with the EFF defending and technology companies will finally be forced to stop eroding our rights as consumers. One can dream, right?"
Too bad the US government is filling up with an increasingly wide revolving door of corporate representatives, including the new Supreme Court appointment. We're the subject of a coup d'etat at the moment.
Well, now that's weird.
Pretty sure these people who are backing on patreon are players who don't have a wii u, because if they wanted to pirate it, they would have done on the console itself because on how ridiculously easy it is :/
@Guspaz Perhaps, but the associated legal fees seem to have put Bleem! out of business, and it contributed to the downfall of Connectix as well, so even if the CEMU folks were to "win," they could easily be financially ruined by this, especially as hobbyists. It's not as easy as winning and precedent, and literally advertising what they're up to could certainly be problematic. I imagine that Nintendo would have few problems pulling their Patreon down as part of legal action against them. Heck, I bet Nintendo contacting Patreon would be enough to get them shut down, as they could probably state that it violates their Terms of Service for "encourag[ing] others to break the law," whether that's a fair assessment of what an emulator does or not. I wouldn't imagine Patreon would want to hear from Nintendo's legal team and would be willing to side with the Cemu folks too easily for fear of being wrapped up in legal action themselves. For that matter, the high profile of this whole thing can easily work against them, and I think making money off of it in an obvious way to get that negative attention.
That's all to say that regardless to the legality of it all, I still think this Patreon is in poor taste and could cost them dearly. I'm sure if there's anything that can be done, Nintendo's going to be all over it. Again, I couldn't care less about the legality of this, but I think their approach to advertising and raising funding is powerfully stupid, and I'll be shocked if it doesn't at least get shut down.
It absolutely boggles my mind that this website continues to post news updates about rather dubious projects. It's like painting a giant red bullseye on them for a cease and desist.
Though given the nature of how they are funding this and using a major game launched only this month, they probably do deserve one. I understand the need for preserving games, but it is far too early to be doing that for this such game.
@PlywoodStick
Yeah, that's an even more depressing subject.
@MarioPHD
That's a good point about Bleem! and you also reminded me of what happened to Lik Sang. One difference that may work in the CEMU team's favor is that crowd-sourcing is more common place now. That could help with their legal fees should it come to that.
@MarioPhD There are some differences, I think. For one, the legal precedent was not already set in the Bleem and Connectix cases (they were roughly concurrent), which may discourage Nintendo from taking direct action.
There is also the point that Nintendo, as heavy handed as they tend to be with IP issues, has never filed an emulator-related lawsuit (or even done a C&D, AFAIK) in the recent past. Dolphin (the most popular GameCube/Wii emulator), for example, has been around for 13 years without action from Nintendo. Suing an opensource project like Dolphin out of existence is rather more difficult than suing a proprietary product like cemu out of existence, but they haven't made an attempt.
All that said, it does appear that CEMU supports encrypted images, which may open them to difficulties with anti-circumvention laws. They'd have to argue that the primary purpose of CEMU isn't decrypting ISOs, instead of being able to argue that they don't do any circumvention in the first place.
All that said, CEMU isn't the only kid on the block: there is also a less advanced opensource effort known as Decaf, and nobody has ever managed to shut down all emulation of a game console platform through lawsuits. Even Sony, despite their effective success against Bleem and Connectix VGS, did not manage to prevent Playstation emulation. They didn't even succeed in delaying it, as both epsxe and pcsx debuted in 2000, while Sony's lawsuits were still in progress.
@Kriven "Again, those people were likely not going to buy a console anyway. Null sales are not lost sales."
Eh I'd argue most people wouldn't go out of their way to play a game or system they didn't think was worth playing, otherwise they'd just play something they did think was worth buying/playing.
I do believe there is an indeterminate number of lost sales as a result of stuff like this, especially when it comes from highly desirable games like LoZ, Mario and Pokemon.
@PlywoodStick Wow, that goes way beyong my knowledge of D&D. ^^ I actually had to look up the term 'Chaotic Neutral' (and from there, it was self-evident what 'Chaotic Evil' means), definitely an interesting concept!
And yes, I think it applies here (in the worst case scenario).
I was coming more from a classic philosophical point of view (although the concepts you mentioned are in fact philosophical too), based on what I learned during school and university years and of course, what I think about morals myself.
But when I agreed to Urameshi's post, I didn't know there was already such a fundamental discussion going on.
Though, without having read everything here, I guess my original argument (post #71) does fit in it.
I just wanted to point out that people blindly react to the term 'emulator' or 'emulation' as if it was a (morally or lawfully) wrong thing. Which it isn't (and inherently can't be, since emulators are just a tool, free of morals), as I argued.
Furthermore, I also wanted point out that by reacting blindly and emotionally, these people don't think about the actual consequences of - for example - BotW running in an emulator. Because, as I tried to show, these consequences are either positive for Nintendo or there are just no consequences at all. There are no negative consequences.
So depicting emulators as a bad or wrong thing is just a phantom argument, because it completely ignores reality.
And to come back to your post: 'Cemu is Chaotic Neutral at worst, but of course most people here default to labeling it at Chaotic Evil.' is a pretty good summary of what I was trying to say.
@R_Champ: Precisely. While I don't have a lot of experience with emulators (mainly someone's Atari 2600 recreation on a Raspberry Pi and a little bit of Project 64, which trust me did not run well on my friend's tablet), I usually feel that those games are better played on the system they were intended for.
I don't find it justifiable in the least to pirate a game just because you don't like a company, or because you don't have the game system for it. If you feel like you have to play something so badly, then buy the game and the system for it. Reward the developers, system designers, heck, even the marketing department for their hard work in making such a masterpiece a reality. If it's an issue with money (which IMO, most PC Master Race freaks shouldn't have any problem with), then start saving up. Honest people's pockets shouldn't have to suffer only because one's too cheap or too ego-centric to do things the legal way.
Tl;dr: I agree with you, people need to grow up.
@shani Terms like those are a great way of simplifying philosophical concepts using few words. Your understanding of this subject is beyond that of most people, even those familiar with topical issues surrounding gaming. However, sometimes one needs certain terms to make it easier for others to understand, in as many words or less than your synopsis. (Which is already shortened for clarity.)
@Anti-Matter I did buy their product. I bought Breath of the Wild.
I'm not paying $360 for a single game.
@Nintenerdguy Because I don't have a WiiU, or a Switch. But I did pay $60 for the game.
@Tyranexx What? People like me that don't have a Nintendo console will purchase the game to support the game's development, and play it on our PC's?
Because that's what I did.
@Tyranexx "If it's an issue with money (which IMO, most PC Master Race freaks shouldn't have any problem with)"
Dude, my PC is made up of pieces cobbled together from computers that otherwise were going to get recycled. I've spent a total of $330 dollars on it (a $150 graphics card, some extra RAM, and an HDD for the computer itself, $50 for a Steam Controller), and was gifted a $150 processor. I already saved up my money for a system. I also saved up the money to be able to buy Breath of the Wild.
I'm NOT going to buy a Nintendo console just to play literally one game. I can take or leave Mario, I play Smash Bros over at my friends, and it's not like we're ever getting a good Metroid again.
So Nintendo can either get the $60 they got from me when I bought Breath of the Wild, or they can get $0 from me.
@ChrisRevocateur: You're not entirely the demographic I was getting at with the PC Master Race comment. Many spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars building their PCs and on gaming hardware. In my eyes, those people can't turn around and complain about not having money. If they do, then clearly some priorities need to be reshuffled. I know of a case where someone got an expensive new graphics card, then didn't have enough money to replace the old tires on their car when they had a double blowout shortly afterward. Quite unfortunate, but something that should have been better planned for.
I can see your argument of not wanting to buy a system for one game (which is similar reasoning to why I haven't yet bought a Switch), but why not still buy a Switch or a cheaper Wii U if you want to play Breath badly enough? The latter has an excellent library of games, and even then if you're done with a system, you can easily sell it or trade it in. If that's still not your cup of tea, why not borrow a friend's system? There are other options available besides violating a company's ToU.
@Tyranexx
You cannot violate a company's terms of use if you never agreed to them in the first place. (And you wouldn't have if you were playing Breath of the Wild exclusively using CEMU.) Also, I scoff at any company that tries to dictate how I use their products. Terms of use should only apply to services and even then I think companies abuse the notion of what is considered a "service."
@KainXavier: That's where it becomes a moral gray area to me. As mentioned before, I have no problem with emulators themselves; they are just tools. Take a pencil, a common tool. It can be used for innocent writing, yet in the same practice can be used to etch swear words into a school desk. That's breaking the rules set by the school you are in.
In the same fashion, is it right to use an emulator to play a game that just recently came out, one that you could easily buy or borrow a system for? Not in my eyes. If, say, only ten people use an emulator to play BotW or Horizon: Zero Dawn, then that won't even make a dent in a company's profits. However, multiply that effect significantly, and the losses start to add up. I feel like this is exemplified quite well with how Game Dev Tycoon handles pirated copies of itself.
Take an emulator and play a game on it that released many years ago (like Mega Man 64 or Digimon World), and I have no problem. Nearly all physical copies of such games are sold secondhand (and overpriced in some cases) and thus won't affect their parent company's profits; they already made a profit off of them years ago.
I'm not saying that companies are perfect by any means; none truly are. However, if I use their products or services, I intend to follow the rules and warnings attached to them.
@Guspaz This came out shockingly shortly after our exchange and it's definitely a fun and interesting watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGHul1PrXCE
Norm does good work. It didn't necessarily work out well for either company in that case (although Connectix was probably pretty happy since Sony ended up paying them money), but the cases did set very important precedents.
@Tyranexx
You can buy a Wii U console second-hand. You might even be able to use it without agreeing to any of Nintendo's terms and conditions provided the previous owner already did. I don't feel paying an "entrance fee" should factor into whether or not it is immoral to play a video game on a platform other than the one it was intended for. (Also, sorry for the late reply and thank you for yours!)
@KainXavier: I was halfway through constructing a lengthy response, but then realized that it constituted, at its core, most of what was essentially disclosed in my last reply and in previous comments of mine in this article. XD
I think we should just agree to disagree on this one. Thank you for keeping the discussion civil, at any rate. That's an increasing rarity on the internet these days.
@Tyranexx
Thank you and I feel like-wise! Also, sorry to keep dragging you back to an old article. I didn't see a way of PM-ing you a response.
@KainXavier: I don't mind, really. This is one of the few sites I've joined that doesn't seem to have a PM system. While one would be nice, I can see reasons why not having one isn't a bad move either.
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