Nintendo 64 Emulator Unceremoniously Yanked From Xbox One Store

Ah well. I tried, but it was rendered incompatible with Xbox One by the time I got to it. There's always Rare Replay though!

"You know when you've been Ninja'd!"

What's Microsoft's excuse this time for removing this totally legal App? Was it not submitted as a "game" rather than an App? Was the name too close to N64? Was there an honest to goodness serious "bug" that meant it had no choice but to pull it?

There's always the Wii U to play N64 games with.
And the emulator used for Virtual Console games is probably a lot more polished anyway.

@SamuFinland Well, not if it's the same quality of the official NES emulator on Wii U vs the fan made NES emulators for the likes of PC. In that case the fan versions utterly wipe the floor with Nintendo's own efforts.

@jimi And, what?

You know many of those unofficial retro consoles you can buy these days . . . those often allow you to use/support emulators (as far as I'm aware), and they're being sold for money/profit, perfectly legally—because it's not illegal to create and sell emulators in and of themselves.

What's your point again?

@jimi See above.

I've perfectly made all the points I feel I need to make.

You're not adding anything of merit.

@impurekind Stop freeloading!!!! Sick of reading these same old stories each week from people who think they're entitled to free games when they're available on ebay.

Not surprised by this, I actually thought they took it down pretty slowly considering it was available for a whole day.

@impurekind It's encouraging the illegal distribution of copyrighted material... even though the app itself does not breach copyright laws, it requires those laws to be broken in order to fulfil it's primary function, and can be held accountable for those laws being broken as a result.
They should technically be blocked from use on PC, etc. as well, but to even attempt to do so would be futile... it is too easy to distribute emulators over the internet, so it would simply be impossible to stop.

@DragonEleven What, like in much the same way selling a gun encourages people to go out and shoot each other—Because that's clearly the "primary" and only function of a gun, right?—and that's why it's illegal in the Unite . . . Oh, wait. . . .

Well, I guess everyone should just ignore the law and prevent all those Americans for exercising their legal right to purchase a gun.

And we should stop certain companies from legally growing hemp to make hemp clothes and whatever else hemp can be legally used for too, because obviously its "primary" and only function is for people to get illegally high with it.

And . . . well, I think two examples is probably enough.

ROTFL! What did they expect?

@impurekind Because it would negatively affect the very friendly relationship that Microsoft have with Nintendo. It's really not hard to understand. Really don't get all the confusion around the removal of such apps. They can be and are used for the illegal use of protected IPs. Legal loopholes don't equate respectful business practices.

@impurekind Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you have to shoot someone with it, but using an emulator does mean you have to break copyright laws... the two situations are not comparable.

If you want to play N64 games, there is a crazy solution-

Can you guess what it is kids??
😉

@DragonEleven Eh . . . no, it does not in the slightest. Did you literally just sit there and make that up in your head?

@impurekind I am actually curious- apart from killing people, what else can you do with guns? 😕

@HappyMaskedGuy Are you being serious?

@HappyMaskedGuy uh...you're not serious, are you?

As for the emulator, it was a piece of junk that barely worked.

@impurekind Well you can't make soup with them, I know that for sure 😐

But yeah, I was under the impression that guns were primarily designed for killing things. Mainly people.

@DragonEleven Look at this:

_{link meowed}

Those are all totally and utterly legal MAME ROMs, which require the also totally legal MAME emulator to play them.

You can find out more about MAME here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAME

And there's a lot more homebrew titles out there than just the games that run on MAME:

http://www.1up.com/features/31-homebrew-games-worth-playing

There's many perfectly legal examples of both emulators and ROMs like this, regardless of there also being the chance that many really "bad" people will pirate copyrighted ROMs too.

It is our legal right to be able to play all those cool and perfectly legal homebrew games via the also totally legal emulators that are often required to run them, and not fighting to protect that right, under some misguided notion that all emulation is bad and we should only support stuff that companies like Microsoft and Nintendo can directly control and profit from, is just, well . . . it's not serving your own best interests, that's for sure. And it's not exactly great for the past and future of this industry either, from a consumer-choice perspective.

Regardless, I'm still struggling to see the legitimate and fair reason for Microsoft shutting down this apparently totally legal N64 emulator here, regardless of whether it has the legal freedom or not to arbitrarily decide who can or cannot release an App on its store as and when it sees fit. . . .

Meanwhile, grass is green, water is wet, and the NX still hasn't been revealed.

Boy howdy that was fast.

@Mega_Yarn_Poochy We wait with baited breath. . . .

Funny how Xbox don't want to mess with Nintendo in a court room.that's good that they are stepping up to the plate and saying no to this stuff.

@impurekind Point taken... I wasn't being specific enough.

To clarify, I was referring to the sort of emulator that this article was about... those that have been designed to allow for the playing of copyrighted games.

I want an Xbox emulator on NX. Just for equality. I would then campaign to remove it.

@BensonUii That's probably hit the nail on the head.

Excuse me: Why did the MOD remove my link to those legal MAME games?

Those are actually all legal ROMs approved for distribution by the original creators of those titles.

It's surely not against the site's terms and conditions to link to actual legal homebrew games; it's about not linking to and encouraging illegal emulation. Right?

Every single one of those games in that link was approved by the original developers for legal distribution on MAME. Why are you not letting me let people know about such games?

Can you please double check with the heads of the site if this link is actually supposed to be blocked for any good reason (maybe contact Thomas or Damian or someone else directly before you mistakenly block a totally acceptable link): http://mamedev.org/roms/

Note: If the actual link does get removed again then it's just the officially-approved-and-supported-by-the-original-developers ROMs on the MAME site under the Downloads-ROMs tab that I'm talking about: Should people actually want to go check out those game for themselves.

Nah, I didn't download it purely because the quality of the emulation was way too buggy. It's sad to see this yanked, though. I would have loved to see the potential future of emulators on the Xbox store.

@impurekind can they prove It? A website distributing said ROMS can claim anything about them. Review the community rules in regards to ROMS please. I personally think it's legal grey area.

@wiggleronacid Im actually really happy! this got yanked xbox needs to stop trying to copy Nintendo and just make there own games already they already failed twice at trying to be like the Big N by getting stupid nesbox removed and now this

@MegaMari0 Oh, God. Are we getting into some kind of conspiracy territory here? MAME is an extremely well known emulator for old arcade titles, that's been around for years (legally), and this is the official site. I'm certainly not doubting the claims the guys are making that these games have all been approved by the original creators.

I really really! hate! xbox!! their so bland and boring and have no creativity so much to the point where they have to keep trying to copy Nintendo because apparently they can't make enough games of their own it makes me super happy that Microsoft keeps removing all their Nintendo emulators

From what I heard its nothing like any of the emulations you can get on PC since it runs horribly.

@Xaessya that's cause xbox sucks i rather use virtual console

@impurekind are you actually supporting this trash that xbox is trying to do?

@Elysium What trash?

I'm not supporting Microsoft blocking what seems to be a perfectly fair and legal emulator, if that's what you mean.

However, I can't say if it's trash or not.

@impurekind Please use the contact form to Voice any further concerns about the removal of the link. Thank you.

@MegaMari0 Are you the MOD that removed the link?

@impurekind the Trash that Xbox is Trying to Copy Nintendo for the Second time now and it had to be Stopped

Note to MOD: The link below is not a link to any emulators and the games are all just simple homebrew games, which don't use any copyrighted material at all (no hacks; all original creations).

Now, to everyone reading, look at all these awesome homebrew NES games made by passionate fans and gamers and freely shared with you so you too can enjoy their creations.

Sadly, you wouldn't be able to play any of those games without the legal emulators required to run them. And, let's be clear here once again: These aren't pirated copies of copyrighted games and they're not using copyrighted material like original Mario sprites or whatever; they're all legit original creations that these talented developers just want to share with you, and they're doing so entirely legally.

So, just imagine if you idly sit by and let companies like Nintendo and Microsoft eventually dictate/control everything, which is exactly what they'd like to do and are indeed trying to do, and prevent you from using these totally legal emulators. . . .

How is that in any way good for you as a consumers/gamers?

Do you really think those companies should be controlling every single aspect of how, when, and where you game (and likely asking you to pay for it too)?

Well, it starts with the stuff were witnessing happening in the article/report above.

@impurekind The problem really lies with the fact that the vast majority of people will use an emulator to play a game whose copyright belongs to say, Nintendo, like Mario 64, without Nintendo, the original creator's, permission.

Microsoft can't be seen to just be sitting idly by and allowing an app to be sold on their store through the Xbox which allows the properties of another company to be played without that company's permission. It's bad business. Simple as that.

Some of us have legal ROM dumps of our own cartridges... Emulators are legal, ROMs don't have to be illegal, and a lot of you are willing to give up a lot of (legal) freedom because of your blind support to companies. It's pretty gross. I love Nintendo, but I've bought Super Mario Bros from them about 6 times, I have my legal ROM and I'll play it where I like now.

I understand it being a gesture of goodwill from Microsoft to Nintendo, but ultimately it hurts consumers. You own a copy of your game to play how you like, not how Nintendo tells you to. I don't understand why y'all support this.

@bherdm This, 100%

Even though that particular area of the law (backing up copies of your games) is a bit more of a grey area than simply creating/distributing emulators in and of themselves.

But, in principle, I totally agree with you from a consumer/gamers point of view.

@impurekind If the emulators were somehow locked to only play fan made games then it would be fine, but as long as they can be used to play copyrighted games, people will use them to do so, and that is where the problem lies.

@impurekind Please stop going on. You just want something for free. You don't want to pay. You can pull all kinds of long winded excuses about legality out of the cupboard, but at the end of the day, you and other emulator users are freeloaders who will never experience games in their original forms.

@olrodlegacy Stop pretending you even have the slightest clue as to what I want. It's both embarrassing for you and highly offensive to me. What if I just go make up some junk in my head that you are a murderer without any evidence whatsoever and openly accuse you if it online; would you like that? You know yourself; you don't have the slightest clue about me. Stick you knowing yourself; your better at it—you totally fail at having the tiniest clue what I'm all about.

@bherdm In an ideal world, yes. There are obviously many responsible, dedicated users of these emulators who do so respectfully and with the right intentions. But most people do not see it that way. They view it as a free means of access to other peoples properties. Whether the actual practice is technically legal or not- surely it constitutes as a form of piracy? I haven't heard Nintendo say it's harmless to them, and ultimately, fans of Nintendo generally don't want to support a practice which could be harmful to Nintendo.

@impurekind
Take a couple of these:

No use getting so worked up

@HappyMaskedGuy "Whether the actual practice is technically legal or not- surely it constitutes as a form of piracy?"

No, piracy constitutes a form of piracy; making and distributing a totally legal emulator does no such thing.

That's like saying legally selling guns constitutes mass shooting.

Do you understand?

@bherdm The problem with that argument is that if you have legal copies of the games anyway, then you don't need an emulator to play them.

@shaneoh Take a very large handful yourself.

@impurekind You keep using this gun metaphor. I get what your trying to say, but maybe consider the sensitivity of the subject and compare it with a more tasteful metaphor. Emulators are in no way comparable to mass shooting.

@impurekind
I have, though I warn you, they're suppositories.

@impurekind lol like me I don't buy those junk.i buy original consoles instead not cheap knock offs

@HappyMaskedGuy
"Emulators are in no way comparable to mass shooting."
Unless you believe the media...

@bherdm top comment. Couldn't write this myself any better.

To all these who want a Xbox emulator on the NX. Tough luck. It won't be powerful enough. If you disagree to Microsoft allowing it why would you allow Nintendo.

I'm a Nintendo fan but I have bought super Mario bros 3 5 times and also have the rom.

@impurekind The only person who's embarrassed themselves is you. The freeloader!

@shaneoh This entire comments section alone has me questioning the gun debate. Apparently guns do tons of stuff except shoot and kill things. Though nobody has actually given me the low down on that yet. If I can make a gun that plays Xbox games and makes soup- consider me converted.

@impurekind If you sold a gun to someone knowing that they were going to kill someone with it, then that is illegal... you would be charged as an accessory to murder.
That is basically the situation with emulators... they release them, knowing that people will use them to break the law, and can be held responsible as a result.

If we could look at the top 20 most played ROMs on an emulator, would they be original content, and if not, would those playing say, Mario 64, own multiple legal copies?

I'm gonna be a sceptic and say no, probably not.

Dolphin is a great emulator if not the best. It plays my wii games better than the wii

@DragonEleven
To tell you the truth the ones that have Wii/Gamecube games but don't have the system can benefit greatly from the Dolphin emulator to play their game instead of buying a new system.

@impurekind you can't win. If Nintendo says jump, they will jump.

It's Microsofts system, and Microsoft's reputation. If it chooses to pull an emulator - probably due to emulators being associated with piracy, regardless of what other legal uses you may want to put them to - it's Microsoft's right to do it.

If you want an emulator get one on a more open system and quit expecting Microsoft to sacrifice it's corporate reputation for the sake of a few amateur productions that could be played on just about any hardware made in the last 15 years.

I think there are obviously a lot of opinions on this subject, and people who use emulators and ROMs do passionately defend their use. So I want to better understand their point of view.

My own point of view is kind of like my feeling regarding torrent sites-
Example: I own an album. It's on a CD, so surely because I already bought the CD there's no harm in using a torrent site?

Well the band didn't give me permission, and it is THEIR music. I enjoy their music, so I want them to keep making more of it.

But what if-

I never actually even bought the CD. So I'm taking something without permission, and I didn't pay for it.

Beneath all the rhetoric and all the loopholes, didn't I just steal something?

I know these emulators (this one and the NES one from a little while back) are viewed as some big deal on this website, but I think it's been blown out of proportion. Emulators are available on just about everything nowadays; if someone can't emulate the N64 on their Xbox One, they'll just do it on one of the billion other devices they own that can do it, probably for free (unlike this one).

Take them down, don't take them down, it really doesn't make much of a difference either way. It's a symbolic action at best - it will stop nobody who wants to emulate the NES/N64 from doing so.

@HappyMaskedGuy If you download a CD but never listen to it...?

@DragonEleven I have the right as the buyer of this digital enjoyment to experience it in the best way possible. Nintendo has failed me at providing a good way to play old games in HD. The WiiU emulators are pretty bad compared to others that allow for HD rendering and texture packs. If you've played OoT with a texture pack, you'd understand.

Also, for a not-gun-metaphor, I have a large BluRay/DVD collection that never makes it to the player. Why? I rip my movies and stream them to wherever I am in my house. We have 12 screens in our house (laptops, PC's, and TVs) as well as phones that can now all access or movies collection, save checkpoints by user, and ALL LEGALLY.

As long as you don't share, it's not illegal. Buy your stuff, support the devs, but do what you want with your purchase.

I haven't even gotten into games they don't re-release. I have a legal ROM of Back to the Future for NES. I don't see Nintendo making an effort to provide that on Wii U (never mind that it's a garbage game, it's a guilty pleasure).

@gcunit huh? I'm confused 😕 lol

@impurekind i mean... it's an emulator on Xbox One, without Nintendo and other companies permission to allowed this app to be on a such console, we could argue the same thing about emus on PC and Mobile and etc. but still it's not surprised, i mean look how Nintendo taking action on removing roms from Vizzed to coolrom and etc.

so you can't be really this surprised that an action was taken, no matter what app it well be.

@bherdm Not if Nintendo don't want you to your not. Where'd you get that idea??

@impurekind

1) It wasn't me that deleted your link, but I suspect it should have been deleted.

2) I followed one of your links to those Homebrew games. I found a game called 'Whack a Mario' which featured a character in it who seemed to very closely (i.e. look exactly the same as) the Mario we all know from Nintendo games. How is using that character and that name, without Nintendo's permission, legal? That's Nintendo IP that guy has ripped off, whether he's 'created it from scratch' or not.

We reserve the right to err on the side of caution and remove any links we choose. OK?

@Xaessya My earlier comment was assuming that you would have a system to play them on (he had said he had 6 copies of the game)... if you don't then using an emulator would be understandable, assuming that you no longer have the console because it broke (if you sold it, then you have no reason not to just buy another).

@bherdm man you done it again. Your on fire

@gcunit I agree, while I wish Microsoft had the gumption to say that it's not illegal, I support their right to allow and disallow whatever they want on their system. I don't have an Xbox 1, but I do enjoy emulators on my Ouya, like Wii U, a totally underrated console.

@UK-Nintendo I dunno- I think you guys are in a little bit of a minority of opinion here. Got a big hill to climb to persuade others. I'm enjoying the debate though, and I respect your thoughts in the matter.

@HappyMaskedGuy If you download a CD but never listen to it, what have you stolen?

@gcunit So if I steal a car but never drive it? It's still taking without permission, which I'm pretty sure is the definition of theft..

@HappyMaskedGuy Not an applicable analogy. If you download a CD you have stolen nothing. And if you don't ever listen to it then nobody has lost anything, it's just copied binary sitting on a hdd.

And no, legally at least, that's not the definition of theft.

I don't understand the point of authoring emulators of Nintendo's creations. Especially nintendo, a company who wl not hesitate to remove unauthorized videos from YouTube. The emulator people are like children who willingly go against their parents rules knowing they'll be disciplined, but crave the drama and attention, nonetheless . And Microsoft is the older sibling enabling the kid, only to step back and get a kick out of watching mom yell at his little brother after it went a little too far.

There is one reason I can think of Microsoft removing the emulator that doesn't have anything to do with Nintendo. The emulator could be used to emulate games they are still selling in stores, mainly their N64 products that are bundled with the Rare Reply (and can be sold separately). Letting the emulator in play would have them be competing with piracy in the very marketplace they are trying to sell. It would be like Nike letting off brand Nike knockoffs to be sold in their own store.

@gcunit If the band or record producer hasn't given you permission to do so, and you have that binary sitting there, it's irrelevant if you use it or not. That's a silly argument. I genuinely worry about people who don't understand why torrents and piracy are not a bad idea.

I'd prefer to not be a cheap prat and give an artist who worked hard on a product for my pleasure the financial recompense they deserve for the experience I accepted from them as a consumer. It's called trade. Regardless of its form as a CD or binary code.

@impurekind Here is the simple answer. It is Microsoft's marketplace and they get to set the rules. Their rules say they don't want emulators on their console that create ill-will from other console makers because it is trivially easy to create emulators of their products on competitor's systems.

As for the gun analogy, it is weak. Guns can be misused for mass shootings, but their intended domestic purpose is to either put food on the table (hunting), competitive shooting (sport), or self-defense (deterrent). An emulator exists primarily for a single purpose, to play games on hardware they were not intended to run on.

Even setting aside the issue that some of those games still being sold commercially, you are still taking someone's property as defined by our laws. It doesn't matter if it is digital, it is their intellectual property to do with as they wish even if that is to let it sit there and rot. It is the same problem with films and television shows lost for all time because they were seen of no value and literally decayed in the can. It is tragic to record of culture, but it is the right of the owners to allow it.

Yes in taking a digital recording of a CD there is technically no loss of sale, but there is a theft of rights. There is also the problem that just because it exists, doesn't give you the right to take. You take issue with this when it is a physical item or even I would guess when it is plagiarism. Yet somehow you feel entitled to take digital because it's just bits and don't see the inconsistency in the statement.

Disclaimer: I do not and do not support downloading copyrighted content (including CDs). I dump my own ROMs/ISOs using original hardware and my own technical expertise.

Here's a soft-opinion I have that might be worth discussion:

Maybe if Nintendo saw these older games as less profitable (because everyone can play them easily (illegally), maybe they'd put more effort into making new, groundbreaking classics. I would like to know how much money they've made on eShop sales of Mario 64 vs Star Fox Zero. I'm not saying they are getting lazy, I'm saying it's a soft-opinion of mine that they could be getting lazy.

@impurekind just pay for the games on Wii U eshop and stop trying to be a freeloader

Copied binary sitting on an HDD is still classed as possession.

If I have something illegal on my hard drive, but never look at it, should I be exempt from punishment for downloading it and being in possession of it?

I think the law would look at what was in my possession, which as you know, is nine tenths

@olrodlegacy Thank you for saying that cause that's exactly what i thought people are being freeloaders and not supporting the company i think it's actually disgraceful to play great Nintendo masterpiece games on a crummy xbox

@Elysium I think there is something to be said in regard to wanting to play games that will never be revived on a virtual console though. But it still comes down to the owner of that IP whether they allow it or not.

@bherdm Enhanced and un-enhanced versions of games should not be talked about as if they are the same thing, as they are not... Nintendo's emulators are designed to recreate the original experience of playing the game, nothing more.

And using a ripped copy of digital media that you own is not illegal... I never said it was... I just said it wasn't necessary (as chances are you'd still have a system to use them with).
The problem (as many others have pointed out) is that most people using emulators are not in that position, and the people who make the emulators know that, but willingly provide them with a means of breaking the law regardless.

As for old games that are not being re-released... it's still illegal, and you could always buy a pre-owned copy to get around that... but I do think that's an area of copyright law that needs to be revised... currently video game copyright expires after 75 years from first being published, but I think it should be something like 15 years since it was last published... that way games that are not re-released could be freely distributed, while games that have been re-released will still be protected under copyright.

[I] LOL at the freeloader comments.
[I] LOL at $10 emulators.
[I] LOL at Xbox.
[I] Sit down and cry that WiiU is dead and it's VC sucks.

[edited for clarity]

@bherdm I think there is some truth in the freeloading part though. It's far from the rule, but it certainly isn't the exception.

@bherdm at at least it has it's own exclusive games unlike xbox and ps4 who relys on 3rd party games because they can't make their own

@gcunit You might consider looking over the law again. Unless you get the consent of the person who made said CD, it absolutely is stealing!

@bherdm And yes, the Wii U Virtual Console sucks. Nintendo need a kick in the head for that.

@TG1 Please share the link to the legislation that says that, cos in the UK the 1968 Theft Act says "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly."

Digital piracy is copying, not stealing, because you're not depriving the rightful owner of the property, you're copying it. The rightful owner still has their original version. Try telling the Police you've had your album stolen if it's still sitting on your shelf.

@HappyMaskedGuy But you haven't experienced anything until you actually listen to it. Until you listen to it nothing has changed other than a reduction in the available space on your hdd and a slight hit on internet bandwidth during the download.

@gcunit Respectfully, are you being serious?

@gcunit I don't think the courts are particularly interested in my experience of the thing I took without permission!

I think we are straying somewhat into the philosophical argument of what is theft, rather than what constitutes it's definition in law.

@impurekind Here's a novel idea for ya. How about instead of acting like an entitled freeloader, purchase said games that you desire from eBay, or download them from the Wii U or 3DS eShop, you know, like most people do when they want to play older games from the past. Nothing you say or do will make your actions or words sound right in the eyes or ears of those who understand how the law works and actually have a moral compass to them. I literally cannot stand individuals like yourself who think as you do. You're literally a cancer when it comes to the gaming industry, and you hurt the developers with your selfish actions and thoughts on the matter.

Stop being a low life and purchase the content you want legally, don't pretend you're owed or deserve anything you selfish little brat.

@HappyMaskedGuy If all you've done is violate copyright, you won't get prosecuted for theft.

You should note that nowhere am I advocating piracy. All I'm doing is answering your question in post #70.

@Lucina 🌋😨
No prisoners eh? Lol

@gcunit Interesting. Though I would still feel like I'd stolen something lol

@Lucina Thank you that's exactly how i feel these people are pathetic they just wanna steal everything for free but the creators need money to make more games

Disclaimer: I do not and do not support downloading copyrighted content. I dump my own ROMs/ISOs using original hardware and my own technical expertise.

@DragonEleven Nothing feels better than playing a game on its original hardware with original controllers! However, analog signals going to newer digital TVs cause problems, the worst of which is lag. Also, to say VC emulators are like the original experience? I have to disagree, VC is muddy and dark, whereas CRT TVs were bright and beau... well, hideous, but the systems are all capable of sharp picture if you grab it from the system before it converts to analog, and it's frustrating that Nintendo chose to go with an inferior experience in their emulators.

@HappyMaskedGuy I know emulators will be used mostly by freeloaders, and I am not upset with Microsoft for their decision, but the comments here seem mostly rational in support of the emulator while many against are childish "gtfo you freeloading hippies!" I lol at them. Especially because, despite my attitude on emulators, I spend a ridiculous amount of my disposable income on current-gen Nintendo games.

@Elysium I wholly agree. Wii U is a great console for exclusives, and I don't own a PS4 or XBOX. This is a Nintendo family.

@gcunit This question ... "didn't I just steal something?"

The answer, under the law, is yes.

Now if the question was "Am I likely to be prosecuted?" the answer would be no. However, just because a court might not choose to pursue, it does not change the fact that such an action is illegal.

@HappyMaskedGuy Your initial feelings were correct. You would have stolen something.

@TG1 No. The answer would be "no". Please read the Theft Act.

@bherdm Yo i luv you for saying that you and your balloon fight avatar are awesome and im the same way with Nintendo

@SamuFinland True the Wii U VC titles are more polished. I won't be one of those guys who comes on a thread like this and blames Nintendo for not releasing their whole N64 library as an excuse for emulation. Or the fact that Nintendo charges for their VC games and make claims that because the games are old that they should be free. I find it strange that Microsoft would take action against emulators on their Xbox One when they let them run rampant on the Windows App Store. Still good on whoever was able to download it. I prefer most of my games including N64 to run on original hardware, but for $10 I would have likely given it a try on my Xbox One.

@TG1 HappyMaskedGuy now gets it. You don't. What is your legal qualification/experience?

@TG1 @gcunit The Uk advice that I have read says that sharing a piece of media or file without a copyright holder's permission is absolutely illegal.

I imagine that is because it could be used to deprive the copyright owner of money which is legally theirs. Whether it is legally classed as theft or not, to me that is stealing something. I have found it an interesting conversation though.

@Lucina You're response to impurekind doesn't seem to tally with anything that user has written. Nowhere that I can see has that user said they play copyright-protected games illegally via emulators. Please calm down, try not to antagonise situations, and read what others have said if you're going to take them up on it.

@HappyMaskedGuy I can be awfully blunt at times, I must admit lol.

@Elysium You're quite welcome! A false sense of entitlement can be a dangerous thing, and, in my personal opinion, they're too many gamers who think as if they're owed or deserve something, therefore they take actions into their own hands. Such thinking is not only incorrect, but it's morally wrong and it should not be ignored.

This has been a fun discussion guys and gals!

@HappyMaskedGuy I'm not saying it's not illegal. I'm just saying it's not theft, because it absolutely isn't.

You're not taking their money when you download a CD.

@Lucina your last comment sounded aggressive. No wheray does he write he plays roms of free games. I plays roms I legally own physically. I dump them.
It's only illegal if you share it.

I own the wii and the GameCube. I also have the dolphin emulator for my games with enhanced graphics.

@bherdm I agree, it's a good example of how a discussion can become informative and illuminating, rather than a pie throwing contest.
@gcunit Gotcha buddy Cheers for the info and input. I'm now more educated on the subject! Everybody wins.

@gcunit Since you asked, I was a paralegal for a number of years. I found looking up copyright law in the UK interesting, so you might consider reading up on that.

@TG1 Whether it is technically theft or not, my feelings haven't really changed on the matter. It's not a practice I will participate in any time soon.

The only grey area for me is if it's an obscure old game whose copyright is a bit uncertain, I can't find it on eBay or people are scalping for it, and I have to move into a shed. Or something :/

@HappyMaskedGuy totally agree.

@TG1 Don't know which country you did that in, but copyright law is not theft law. I've cited the Theft Act, you're yet to cite any legislation that says that downloading copyright-protected data is theft.

Why do you think the UK has the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988? It's because the Theft Act 1968 covers theft, it doesn't cover copyright. There's a clue in the word 'copyright' - c o p y

I take it you're not a paralegal anymore...

From wikipedia: Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft. For instance, the United States Supreme Court held in Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property. Instead, "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: '[...] an infringer of the copyright.'" The court said that in the case of copyright infringement, the province guaranteed to the copyright holder by copyright law – certain exclusive rights – is invaded, but no control, physical or otherwise, is taken over the copyright, nor is the copyright holder wholly deprived of using the copyrighted work or exercising the exclusive rights held.[1] copyright is a type of intellectual property, an area of law distinct from that which covers robbery or theft, offenses related only to tangible property. Not all copyright infringement results in commercial loss, and the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1985 that infringement does not easily equate with theft.

@gcunit Is there a reason for rude sarcasm? I've been polite with you.

In any case, we both have information to read if desired. Let's end this, please.

@TG1 I think I probably took your "so you might consider reading up on that" in the same spirit, so assumed you'd be ok with the banter. Apologies if you've found my response out of keeping in comparison to yours.

You haven't given me any information to read. You've been very vague, and I know why. I've been very specific, because I know the law and have many years law enforcement experience. End this when you like, but you'll do yourself credit if you can make the acknowledgement that HappyMaskedGuy was able to make - that copyright infringement and theft aren't the same thing.

@gcunit Well, legally speaking "stealing" (which is what I mentioned) is often different from "theft". But there's no point in arguing semantics ... I'll leave that to attorneys who are paid far more than I.

Thank you for the apology.

@TG1 You're welcome.

I'm genuinely interested in any examples you can link me to where a distinction between theft and stealing was necessary, as generally the two terms are used interchangeably.

Why would anyone want to be playing N64 games on their Xbone when today is the day that Forza Horizon 3 is released? Craziness!

@impurekind calm down. It barely worked anyway.

What an annoying comments section. Most people go about on their merry way of piracy in the privacy of their own life. When ppl try to justify it or 'clear' their own conscience with technicalities it's plain silly. Everyone does it, just admit it and move on

@ghostjoshu I don't think anyone in this section has tried to justify piracy.

@impurekind I was able to look at the store description before it was yanked from the store and they clearly advertise playing Super Mario 64 on XB1 as one of the screenshot, so there's your copyright reason why it was pulled from the store.

@Lucina Lucina absolutely nailed it on the head. It's about a lack of a moral compass. A blight on the gaming industry. A sense of entitlement.

@ghostjoshu Not everyone does it.

@gcunit Pretty sure that's all @impurekind's been doing this entire time, despite his attempts to focus on a techicality. The Xbox One doesn't have an N64 cartridge slot, nor is there currently a USB-connectable device to do so that would work with it (and even that's assuming you're allowed to make an N64 clone right now, I'm not sure whether or not the copyrights still apply), so what else would that emulator be used for?

Just because he's leaning on a technicality doesn't mean the implications behind his statement aren't still plain as day.

Lol at the people actually angry with MS for taking this down, as if they had no basis or rational reasoning for doing so. As if "being legal" is all there is to the decision.

Some people just don't get it. And probably never will.

Surely no one is surprised by this?

@SLIGEACH_EIRE

That's disturbing and hilarious! Lol

@gcunit Probably not directly but you can see people arguing the one legal way of using an emulator as a smokescreen for its primary and rampant use as piracy. It's frankly ludicrous to expect someone legitimately ripping their N64 cartridges to their X1.

Legitimately using an emulator, especially for catridge based games is an extreme inconvenience to the point that the Virtual Console is a clearly better option to obtain the games legally.

However you only need to look at any popular ROM site and you'll see games with several millions more pirated downloads than the actual sales figure of the game. For example there's a single ROM site which has the Digimon World games with about 10-15x as many downloads than the games actually sold...the numbers speak for what people download emulators for.

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust

I'd just like to say that 'freeloading' old ROMs to play on emulators is awesome. That's what PCs, hacked Wiis and other open hardware is for though, not standard console ecosystems. I'm getting a new PC this Christmas, and one of the things I'm most looking forward to doing is running Super Mario Sunshine in glorious HD, with the 60fps hack applied, and possibly even with stereoscopic 3D. Even though I no longer own the disk!

Come and get me, coppers!

If they knew it was going to get yank anyways, why even try?

@toxibunny if you say so, troll.

Called it!

I would be surprised if it was still up. Hard to argue that the emulator can be used for innocent purposes when their page show off pics and videos from another company's IP

Also I had a good read with the comments on this. I lol, I smh, but mostly I git gud (learned).

They could have given it a proper ceremony. A proper burial at least... Lol.

good

As some have pointed out on Gaf, the emulator is a recompiled version of Mupen64 plus, which has a GPL agreement which makes it clear it shouldn't be sold for money. The app like other emulators on the windows store use a lot of these emulators.

@Elysium personally, I use emulation for playing games I can't otherwise play. I also support official releases. Example: I've been slowly picking my way through Golden Sun, Mario RPG, and the first Mario & Luigi on my android devices via emulation. Also bought them on release on Virtual Console (upgraded in the case if Mario RPG from the Wii VC purchase). Another example- Ogre Battle. That series' rights have gone to Square Enix. They don't put much thought into it these days. They don't seem interested in releasing it to Wii U VC in NA. My preferred version is actually the PSX version (I own both versions physically but lack working hardware), and they have no interest in tossing that up on PSN. I still fired up the Wii shop and bought it there, and then ripped my PS1 disc and play that via emulation. Ditto Valkyrie Profile- I bought it on PS1 and PSP, play it these days with emulation.

And there are games that won't come here. Fan translated games, games that just seem to not have the interest (Mischief Makers comes to mind), etc. I don't fault commented m companies enforcing their rights, and I believe in putting my money where my mouth is on official releases. Just know that people may choose to emulate for more reasons that just to pirate. The cases I mentioned aren't much different from using you media player to rip the mp3 tracks from a CD so you can use them in a playlist on your phone, for example.

Well, darn. I knew I should have purchased it the minute I heard about it. : (

@Lucina I must have missed something; where are all these specific, awesome, and completely and utterly legal homebrew games to be found on any of the channels you mentioned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESmU4QfqY28&list=PL42DFA33DBCC111F5

And that's just a tiny selection of the many completely and utterly legal homebrew NES games that are available.

Or how about these SNES homebrew games:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hGQDo-iLEI&list=PL1sfN5-rsITEqbtUE9R8Rw-xusyYDw9uV

How about all these amazing Dreamcast homebrew games:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLpBSGFAWJs&list=PL26A677F85350B9BB

How are we supposed to play all those awesome and totally legal homebrew games, which all require similarly total legal emulators to run, if we all just bend over and let companies like Microsoft and Nintendo shove it to us and dictate to us the law of emulators as they personally see it, which is basically that all emulators should be banned from all existence, even though the law around emulation is itself put in place to protect our legal right to enjoy all these brilliant games that have been lovingly crafted by some amazingly talented people who actually want to share them with us in a way that is totally and utterly legal?

Are you really/seriously saying you don't think any of us should be allowed to play all those great homebrew games, even though the law actually says we all should be allowed to play them just fine on totally legal emulators, simply because that's what would be best for Microsoft's and Nintendo's bottom line? Because that seems to be exactly what your words are advocating.

I don't think I like you dictating your own personal emulation laws to me, just a much as I don't like Microsoft and Nintendo dictating their own personal emulation laws (at least how we all know they'd love it to be), neither of which are the actual emulation law. The actual law here is that emulators are legal, making homebrew games that require emulators to run is legal, and I have a legal right use those legal emulators and play all those amazing and legal homebrew games on said emulators. And that really is the end of it; there is no debate to be had around it—not in relation to what I'm arguing about and for here.

You seem to be extremely confused about the real issue at hand here, certainly in relation to what I'm talking about in my posts.

@impurekind : Here is why all your analogies are wrong, with a much better one:

It's like if Showtime had an app on their website that let you watch premium content from HBO, just as long as you were the one linking to the content from a number of hacked streams.

Your gun analogy is stupid, because you would have to make a gun that works by stealing your neighbors bullets or some such silliness.

No, this is an app designed for piracy. You may be in favor of piracy or against it, but that's the primary function here. Microsoft has probably decided it wanted nothing to do with an app that could lead to legal issues.

@Action51 See the comment right above this one . . . That's really what I'm arguing about here in the grand scheme of things.

This one particular App is really neither here nor there but it does go to the bigger picture, and that's ultimately what I'm talking about: This isn't about Microsoft blocking this one emulator App; it's bigger than that—and the real problem starts like this, it always does, and then moves along with all of us bending over and blindly accepting this kind of thing as companies like Microsoft and Nintendo choose to shove it to us, to dictate the law as they personally would like it be, and we all just go along with whatever they say is "fair" under really misguided notions of what's "right" and "wrong", as preached to us by these very same companies, and not really seeing what's actually happening here.

But, yes, I'm sure Microsoft has its reason; I've never once claimed otherwise. And I have no doubt whatsoever that Microsoft is doing what's right by it and what serves its profit interests best. But what's right by Microsoft in this kind of situation, and indeed Nintendo, is never really in your or my best interests, and certainly not in this case.

Maybe you just can't see the bigger picture and real issue at all here.

@impurekind God, you really do need it spelled out:

1) If the emulator really was intended to be used for homebrew, then they should design a way to block copyrighted roms, and advertise it specifically for homebrew devs and fans.

2) programs like emulators, that allow the user to play various foreign programs could potentially be useful for hacking their console, which Microsoft has every right to try to prevent.

3) Nintendo can come after Microsoft for knowingly allowing a program on their system to play games that belong to Nintendo, thanks to various copyright laws in the U.S. and other countries.

4) Those copyright laws are there for a very good reason. Just because the N64 is old doesn't mean its makers don't still own the intellectual property. I'm not saying they're perfect (far from it), but at least make sure your soap box is stable before you go on preaching about the end-times...

One more thing before I was my hands of this particular topic: I'm certainly not above piracy, or roms. I've been doing it since I was 17, and I'll probably continue to do it for as long as I can. But I'm still sick of seeing people try to justify it, considering how much easier to simply accept the facts: It's easy to do, and we'll never be truly punished for it. I don't need to tell myself "it's not wrong" because I've simply resolved myself to accept whatever punishments may come my way down the road.

Besides, the conscience doesn't work like that - just because it's "not wrong" doesn't mean it's "right".

@CanisWolfred It's sad when I hear stuff like this. You and many other people in here keep wanting to change the facts of the law to suit your personal views on emulators but the facts are emulators are legal, regardless of whether you can play official games on them or not. It's totally irrelevant if you think this thing and that things needed/needs to happen for it to be right in your eyes. It's right regardless of your eyes, and irrespective of the fact that some people can an will abuse it—just like it's right to sell guns in America, regardless of the fact that some people will and do buy them for all the wrong reasons and do terrible things with them. But saying something like "they should make all guns so that you have to use finger print identification to use them" doesn't mean that's the law; it's just how someone might like it to be. The law is they don't have to have finger print identification. The law is these emulators can still allow copyrighted games to run on them (simply because of how these things work in the first place), and the onus is on you to not use copyrighted games and respect the law, just as the onus is on you not to shoot someone in the face. And the solution certainly isn't to ban all emulators and guns either. But, hey, you use emulators and play illegal ROMs, so anything you say against emulators or to defend the likes of Microsoft here is just plain hypocrisy. That's like saying "Hey, you, it's evil to kill! I support any action to stop people killing." as you stab a nun in the heart. At the very least, be congruent.

@impurekind - Okay. Then the entire conversation has officially been summed up earlier in the comments (...in a post I unfortunately cannot find. Too many walls of text):

It's their storefront. They get to make the rules. Plain and simple. It's not always fair, and they're certainly not always right, but this is hardly an issue worth fighting for. Microsoft has a million other counts against them that they have to atone for first.

_{Like the last 5 updates they made to Windows 10! Seriously, are they trying to bury themselves?! I'm totally switching to Linux as soon as I can afford it...}