While video games have age ratings in a similar manner to films, they're often regarded loosely by many. Most that frequent video game stores have a tale to tell of a parent buying their young child the next Call of Duty or GTA release, seemingly oblivious to the fact there's an age rating at all. Sometimes stores are lax in applying the rules, and on other occasions are powerless as parents buy the game and simply pass it on once outside the store.
Age ratings are often ignored, then, for games and various media, yet a group of head teachers in the UK are planning to crack down on parents that allow their children play 18-rated games. In a bold but potentially infeasible move, the Nantwich Education Partnership (which covers a number of schools in Cheshire, England) is planning to report parents to the police and social services for neglect. An excerpt from a letter sent to parents is below.
If your child is allowed to have inappropriate access to any game or associated product that is designated 18+, we are advised to contact the police and children's social care as this is deemed neglectful.
While some may applaud the principle that parents should be tackled over this issue, it's a legally fuzzy area (we believe it's only illegal to buy games under-age, not to play them) and Margaret Morrissey, of the group Parents Outloud, doesn't see it as the right move.
Accepting the huge concerns about these violent games and their effect on children, I think the schools are stepping outside the realm of what is probably acceptable.
It will be construed by many parents as a threat and it is not helpful. If schools want to get the support of parents and gain their confidence, threatening them with social services will not help.
It's a tricky area, with teacher's responsibilities (applied by law in the UK) to consider a child's wellbeing clashing with practicalities and realities. It'll likely be difficult for these efforts from the teachers to actually lead anywhere, while there's an argument to be made that the proposed reporting on the grounds of neglect is unreasonable. On the flipside, there's certainly a perspective that age ratings should be respected and that parents need to take responsibility, even if threats and action are needed.
Speaking to Eurogamer, CEO of games industry trade body Ukie, Dr Jo Twist, said the following.
There are thousands of games that are suitable for all ages, and there are some games that deal with adult themes in the same way that some films, television programmes and books do.
We have PEGI age ratings and parental controls on all consoles to ensure games that are meant for more mature audiences are not played by children. Parents should use all the guidance and tools that are available, and make sure that they talk to their children about what they are playing, what content is suitable for them and what is not.
The ratings and online information services like AskAboutGames.com are there to help them with these conversations.
It's a tough topic, with this move by some teachers in the UK certainly ramping up the issue. Where do you stand on age-ratings, the games children play and the responsibilities of parents?
[source eurogamer.net]
Comments 194
Good.
I think action needs to be taken with retailers too, who need to make parents aware of exactly the content they're letting their kids access. Too often I'll see a mother buy her 8-year-old son a copy of GTA V and clearly have no idea exactly what's on the disc. It's irresponsible and parents need educating.
its true that some kids shouldn't be let near any GTA-like game. They are too young to understand and process what is going on in those games.
This is great. now only if you move it to the states Xbox Live will stop being filled with squeakers.
"Nantwich Education Partnership"
First thing that popped into my head:
This is both good and bad. Some parents just don't care and quite frankly need to be policed.
I happen to agree, to a point. If their oldest is 10 then then the kid shouldn't play it. If their oldest is 20 with a 10 year old brother then that can cause problems. The older son could have let the kid watch him play gta while the parents aren't around, or the younger sibling could have played some while no one was looking. these problems could lead to the parents getting fined while they didn't know what happen. That would be bad folks.
Isn't it entirely legal for a parent to allow their child to play whatever games they want?
I thought it was just illegal to sell these games to kids under the age on the box.
Whatever the laws and rules I think parents should exercise some level of responsibility with what games their children are playing, maybe no so strict they'd never let them play any games above their exact age etc (because it's not always so black and white), but I really don't agree with getting the child services involved just because a 13 year old is playing Mortal Kombat or whatever.
Also; as per usual; the real problem here isn't some kids playing adult games. That's not what leads to all the problems in our society; not even the ones around troublesome teenagers or similar problems. Let's try to fix real problems in families and in society in general and not get sidetracked with largely meaningless crap.
In America it's not illegal to sell games to minors but most major stores have made their rules against it.
(well except for porn games but of course stores won't sell those anyways)
@lividd3ad
So you think the authorities and threats of breaking up families and prison time is a way to fix the problem of parents buying these games for their kids? If that's what you're saying, then you're a monster.
Charging parents for neglect--which leads to threats or actions in taking away children and breaking up families--for buying software for their kids does not fix the problem. It's only going to worsen things to an incredible degree.
All of us who grew up as gamers, at some point, likely received/played/viewed a game or movie outside of our age range as kids from a parent or relative. How would you feel if police had shown up and taken you from your parents for that? Would that fix the problem?
More likely, you'd be seeing people stomping on your private family life where they have no business whatsoever. Mortal Kombat came out when I was a young teenager, and I loved it. I played Doom as a teenager--and loved it. I watched a huge line of R-rated movies ranging from Stephen King horror to bloody action flicks--with my parents. Granted, these weren't all the best options for me, but at no point should my parents have been charged with neglect for taking me to see Die Hard 2.
I play a lot of games with my 11-year-old son of varying age ranges. I know he plays Call of Duty at other kids' houses sometimes and I know his uncle showed him a couple R-rated movies--like one of the Terminator movies. While not exactly pleased by this, I'm also mature enough to know that this stuff isn't hurting him and that at no point is it neglect. I also recognize that having these kind of experiences "behind the parent's back" is a right of passage for modern kids. I did it when I was his age--going to other kids houses to see (rare) movies and things my Mom didn't want us to see. Mostly, she didn't want to watch Critters 2 herself, so we'd never see it. Ironically, Critters 2 was PG-13, but the Stephen King movies and books we regularly had access to were R-rated in their label or content.
I gauge what I want him to play and see in my house. I played all three EDF games with him on the X360. You might note that EDF 2025 got an M rating--I looked at the game myself, and it's for blood splatter of giant space bugs, and I really can't see how the game is remotely M-rated in any other way, because it's not. It's still the same Teen-level EDF nonsense. We work together as a team and enjoy the games that way.
Should he be taken away from me? For neglect? Because I give him everything else he needs in his life--food, clothing, attention, love, but oh my, I played an M-rated game with him?
A funny thing about the moral crusaders--they tend to do more harm than good. Like those people in the US South that try to teach their kids that "sex is bad, and abstinence is the way to live, and that makes Jesus happy." All that moral crusading has done is turn that region into the part of the US with the highest teenage birth rate and highest STD rate.
Better education is always the way to go. Moral crusading and threats are not.
Yes! For the love of God, crack down on this!
@Quorthon "A funny thing about the moral crusaders--they tend to do more harm than good."
Totally agree.
It's often those exact people who can't look at things rationally and objectively and who just go to extremes that are often a far bigger worry than any of issues they believe they are fixing.
Even the threat of intervention that could lead to the taking away of kids from perfectly healthy family environments (let's just presume that not every case where a child plays a game above their age is a situation of child abuse and a dysfunctional family environment) just because they've been allowed to play a few violent games or watch a few scary movies etc is absurd.
We are slowly but surely turning into a police state (world even).
Oh well, as a parent I suppose I should take this seriously.
Education should be for education. I'm ok w/ elementary schools sending home a letter, say the week GTA or COD releases (shouldn't Damo have been handling this topic?) reminding parents that a very popular game is coming out that is not suitable for children. I live in a neighborhood w/ a large Polish speaking population and it might help educate those parents. And any other Luddite parents.
But don't warn or threaten me. Leave that to the criminals.
On a personal note. Pandora's box is open, nothing matters anymore. My friends 6th grade son is constantly being harassed on the bus by some girls showing him porn on their smartphones and making fun of him b/c he hasn't seen "The Human Centipede" and doesn't know what a bj is. Playing FPS at home would be the least of his problems. I know it's anecdotal, but I doubt it's rare. Nobody is hiding Playboys under their mattresses any more when you have a smartphone and sexting in your pocket.
I'm all for schools trying to educate and make a difference, just not sure they can accomplish anything. And threatening parents surely is NOT the way to go.
As a parent I don't want anyone telling me what should go on in my house. As a gamer I know what my 4 year old should and shouldn't be playing. The 1st step should of been sending home a letter that needs to be signed and returned informing parents of those type of games. In the end I think it's up to the parents to decide what goes on. I know a lot of people who don't care what they watch or listen to but they better come home with good grades and if they act up they will get their ass beat. Personally those type of games just don't come into my house, since I don't play them either. Informing should be the path these teachers take not make threats.
@Spoony_Tech
So you think breaking up a family with government intervention is the solution?
Teachers should mind their own business. They can passingly INFORM the parents if need be, but it's NOT their job to crackdown on this, it is the PARENTS'.
I feel like this isn't based in proper understanding of subject matter, but more in apprehension of what's not understood.
Isn't there substantial evidence that violent video games do not encourage violent behavior?
I personally feel it is more likely that lack of exposure to this kind of media provides less insight and understanding to the depictions therein.
Of course this does not excuse selling rated games to minors, but a lot of maturing teenagers are more than capable of consuming this kind of media without harm or being influenced. Assuming all people lack that sort of agency or capacity isn't good.
@KingMike it may not be illegal in the US but it has enough fines levied around it that many places have no tolerance policies. At the gamestop I work out it is grounds for termination. Lucky for me I love ruining some 11 year old's day.
On Topic: While I don't think some one has the RIGHT to tell someone else how to raise their child sometimes I wish current society was more accepting of the "nosy neighbor/whole village mentality". I'm still in my twenties (last year!) and I remember not wanting to get caught by the next door neighbor because my parents would get a phone call asap. I'm sick of these loud, foul mouth, brats trying to buy the latest M rated game but they don't have basic manners. Still... the games aren't the root cause, the parenting is.
So again I think these people mean well but they should leave well enough alone. All they are going to do is make people angry.
Calling the police! I'm not surprised stupid stuff like this is being brought up in that nanny state over there. Some people will never get it.
@Quorthon I think if the patents don't seem to care what their kids are doing then they don't really care to be parents so the answer is yes. I've seen far too much neglect to care. I'd rather the kids be placed in homes that do care. Too many times I've seen so called fathers belittle their kids in public. Its obvious they don't care.
It's pretty clear that the people agreeing with this action actually don't understand it, and those of us who are parents are obviously against this kind of crude, evil behavior being targeted towards our families.
Neglect.
There's a HUGE difference between actual neglect--not feeding, caring for, loving, providing for a child, or beating a child than letting them play Call of Duty or watch Predator.
For that matter, the average age of the modern gamer is 30~35, which is well into parenting age. It's not like parents are ignorant of this as they were when we adults and current parents were when we growing up. Chances are, we're playing these games with out kids.
@Spoony_Tech
Are you a parent? Because you certainly don't talk like one, or understand what parenting entails. Instead, you want moral police to destroy families and interfere where they don't belong.
You don't know what neglect is. You have no idea what you're talking about. You are demonstrating unfettered ignorance, and you want to tell other people how to live their lives by a standard you cannot even define.
To be honest, I think they (the Nantwitch Education people) are getting way too big for their boots here. If they want to stop kids playing GTA, that's fine, but there are better ways to do it than sending parents threatening letters and getting the police banging down on their door. Also, unless this Nantwich Education Partnership have cameras in peoples' homes (cough American school-issued laptop spying scandal cough) this is pretty much unenforceable.
In addition to this, while I think no child under 12 should be playing GTA, it really depends on how mature the child in question is.
This N.E.P bunch should instead send parents a letter about what GTA, et al. is, how it's violent etc, and to think how maturw the child is before letting them play games like GTA.
After all, it's the parent's decision what children should and should not play.
Oh, and good one, @rjejr.
Oh great, stretch the resources of police and social services even thinner!
I agree that it is wrong for children to consume unsuitable material but this is not remotely the way to deal with the issue.
Very interesting. My partner has told me about the 1st-graders where she works talking about playing GTA. I doubt anyone is advocating that.
On the flip side, I look at content in a lot of M-rated games, and I don't have a problem with a 15-year old playing those. I just don't. That's a lot of the target demographic, and a group that I think can tell the difference. It's the same reason I don't have a problem with nudity being accessible to that age group, though sexual content is a tougher sell. Context and all—I won't go into it here.
When we say we're doing this for children, lumping everyone under 18 together is dumb. This policy makes no room for that. It's a Mrs. Lovejoy through and through.
@Quorthon I wouldn't be commenting if I wasn't a parent of 3 ages 8 to 2. If they're reported then maybe it can be a wake up call and the parents will start to pay attention. I don't have any worries whatsoever as I don't let my kids play anything above a teen rating and even then not all those games are for them. The only reason this is even an issue is because of parent neglect. I don't care how mature a parent thinks their 8 year old is he's not ready for GTA anything!
Oh and I just want the kids to be looked after by someone that actually cares. Braking up a family is on the parents and not who ever reports them.
I think the hearts of the teachers are in the right place, but they're going about it entirely the wrong way. They should try to educate or reason with the parents. Threatening them will not lead to anywhere good, and will only create more conflict.
This is the UK nanny state run amok yet again.
if parents of kids who play games like cod actualy bothered to use the parental controls the systems have, then they wouldn't be able to play them anyway
This is something that should be left to the judgement of parents.
Even though Smash Bros is rated 12+, I wouldn't have problems letting a younger person play.
Maybe I'd be less lenient with the likes of Grand Theft Auto, but still, if your kid is smart and understands what's going on, I don't see a problem.
@Spoony_Tech
You are saying it's okay to break up a family for a video game.
That you don't "let those games in your house" makes you neglectful as you magically believe your kids won't be inspired to go behind your back.
It is NOT NEGLECT to allow a child to play a certain video game or see a certain movie. You do not know what neglect actually is. And when you defend this kind of monstrous intrusion of families, then you open the door for the day when even your faux moral superiority will be challenged.
I definitely agree that something has to be done about this, I've recently started helping out with cub-scouts (8-10 year olds) and it's disgusting and just plain wrong to hear an 8 year old kid talking about going to strip clubs, having sex, killing hookers and shooting at the police as if they were doing it themselves. I think parents need to be told exactly what's in the game before they can buy it for their children, especially when there are so many great games out there which are aimed at children.
Personally I don't think it's a good idea for 7 year olds to be desensitized to war, murder, sex and sexual violence, and communities where racial, religious, and sexual orientation abuse is thrown at faceless strangers. But hey, I'm weird like that.
The problem with the 'no psychological effects from playing video games' argument is it's about mentally capable adults. When you have kids or psychologically fragile people playing 'chop the head off the prostitute', there isn't that same boundary between make believe video game and real life. I remember the news of Jamie Bulger's killer's being influenced by video nasties such as Child's Play 3. Kids need to be taught right and wrong by parents, not mature entertainment. And it's the job of schools to keep this standard enforced. I totally support this action.
I'm all for trying to get parents to be more responsible over the games they buy for their kids, but calling the police and social services seems pretty extreme, in my opinion. I'd imagine anyone who thinks it's a good idea to do so over a video game, likely has never seen the wrath and rage of a [good] parent when you threaten to take their kids away... It can essentially be traumatizing for everyone involved.
That said, something does need to be done about the ignorant parents unknowingly (or simply not caring enough about) buying mature games for their kids. These are likely the same parents that wouldn't just hand their kids an R-rated film, give them a link to a porn site, or give them a free pass to curse around them. So why are they so lax on video games?
Though, let's not forget that the rating system for TV, games, and movies are more for parental guidance than a hard and fast law. If a parent has looked into a product and assesses that their child is mature enough to handle it (add to that, they've likely talked to them about not imitating what's seen), then there's not much else one can do from a legal standpoint unless that child actually DOES something illegal with the consumed medium being to blame.
@EarthboundBenjy
A kid won't always understand what's going on, and in that regard, they may not be hurt. I realized as an adult how many very adult moments I missed in various TV shows and movies as I was growing up--some particularly graphic dialog in Batman Returns which had my girlfriend and I looking at each other in shock, and then down to my son, who didn't even seem to notice. And I realized that he hadn't noticed that dialog because I didn't notice it at his age.
Some of that content will simply go over their heads and be ignored. Not all, but some. I don't think any kid needs to be playing GTA (I find value in the maintaining a youthful innocence), but to threaten to destroy families over it is not the solution. It is not neglect unless you're magically rewriting the definition of the word.
What makes this also kind of pointless in the UK (and Australia) is, that the UK (and Australia) seems to hand out age ratings much more lax than e.g. Germany. You will find many cases where a games has been rated age 15/16 in Australia/the UK, but 18 in Germany.
LMAO Like teachers don't already have enough to do? The kids take in knives, jump out of windows. assault teachers, and much worse, and I know that because I've been in classrooms where stuff like that has happened. This is mere PR for headteachers, who, by the way, are much more likely to take a troublesome child to get a nice cup of tea than tell the child to belt up and get used to life sucking ' cos it ain't getting any easier from here on and having an outburst of whatever kind is never going to help. The bottom line is that if a kid is a little ****, then they will stay that way video game or not. This is a teeny weeny problem in the big scale of things - the main problem being, that actually for all our UK nanny-state rubbish, people simply do not care about others. Just look at the disgrace of the "Adult Health and Social Care Act" that comes into force on Wednesday. Anyone with a stable mental health problem is being discharged from services. Oh fabulous! So, a schizoprhrenic who is stable at the moment is being discharged with no monitoring and has to get a GP appointment to get back into the system if they have a problem later (with a 1-3 week wait because of the massive shortage of GPs)? Yes, absolutely yes. Aren't there other services? No, absolutley no. Well, pardon me, but I don't think that is fair on anyone and it is going to end in some kind of massive tragedy. And this is to save money, pure and simple. The reason that services are being cut is because people develop a dependency on services? Oh, so being dependent on a service, meaning you can't survive without it, is cured by scrapping the service entirely? Oh genius! What, you think people are suddenly going to develop the life skills they need that they aren't actually capable of developing, magically just because you said they should? "dependency" in that sense is a value judgement and by scrapping services you are saying that these people are not worthy of services. Well, remove the barriers to social inclusion, then maybe you'll have an argument. As it stands this is wholesale marginalisation and you're not going to dress it up as "efficiency savings". This is being pushed through without consultation by some faceless nithing, too cowardly to even identify themselves. And if you think it's fine to leave the most vulnerable people in society without services, then don't come a-crying when you or an innocent get stabbed or shot. Way off topic there, but it still stands.
@Quorthon As a good parent I know everything my kids do. Sure they can do stuff behind my back for a time but I'll always find out. I have plenty of mature games in the house but they are locked out to them so they can't play them. That's what a good parent does.
I'm not saying the kids should be taken away from a family because of an M rated game. What I am saying is if they're being played and the kid is being aggressive then maybe there is a problem that needs to be investigated. You don't just go and take away a child unless there's probable cause. If M rated games are being played maybe there's more to it then just that and that's where the investigation needs to come in. If all is fine and the parents deem the game is appropriate for them and nothing else is going on then move on.
I personally don't want the government telling me what to do but some times we can't get out of pur own way to do the right thing because too many parents don't care. When you become a parent you no longer care for just yourself but you give anything to protect your kids and care for them. I've seen too many parents ignore their kids to the point they don't care what they do as long as they don't bother them. That's negligent and that's bad for the child that needs a parent's love.
While many kids should not play mature games/ media in general there are some that actually can handle such content. These kids can be respectful of the subject matter. I say that it is the parent's decision if they think their kids can handle the subject matter. There are some 18 year olds who honestly can't handle this stuff but at the same time some 12 years old can handle it really well and much better than the older crowd. Contacting authorities over this is silly at least in my opinion.
Parents need to take it upon themselves to learn about the games they are buying for their kids. Too many are too worried that "little Jonny will be upset if I don't get him GTA5". My parents allowed me to buy GoldenEye 007 because they knew what happens in it and they're fine with that. What makes me uncomfortable is that my 15 year old cousin is letting her aged 12 brother play GTA5 without batting an eyelid. For me, that's just wrong
I don't care. I know what I play and what I don't play. However, I don't even know why I haven't touched my copy of Bayonetta/2(only my brothers have been playing the games).
And some people are turning this into something else, as always. Yay.
@Spoony_Tech
No, up until this last post, you were very precisely saying that parents should be reported to the government as neglectful for the dastardly deed of buying a video game.
Now you're backpedaling. Because either you're ignorant of what actual neglect is or you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you know what happens when a parent is charged with neglect by officials? In many cases, parents have their children taken away, they end up having to spend countless hours and dollars in court trying to defend themselves and get their kids back.
Do you have alcohol in your house? Alcohol is one thing that has been shown to lead to violent actions by people. Maybe your kids should be taken way for you having alcohol in the house. Unlike video games, that is something that can actually, truly damage them. Do you have a Bible in the house? The content therein is infinitely worse than any video game out there. You might be neglectful if you teach kids that they'll burn in hell if they don't follow Jesus. Why, that has actually caused real emotional problems in real people. The exact opposite of video games.
So you don't want the government telling you what to do, but you do want them to do that to other parents, for video games. That's hypocrisy. I don't think anyone practicing hypocrisy could be a good parent. I would never do that to my kid. Because I have respect for him, and I want him to respect me. I don't make blanket statements, and I try my best to teach him that there are gray areas to everything. EDF 2025 is a gray area. It has that M rating, yet is no different from EDF 2017 or EDF: Insect Armageddon or, for that matter, a silly Godzilla movie. You'd want the authorities to interfere with my family life for this. You'd want to ruin my son's childhood and break apart my family. For a video game. As you very clearly stated.
And most importantly, I caution him against people who behave in those ways, and to be questioning and distrusting of anyone who claims to have all the answers. I am not so asinine to puff my chest and claim I'm a good parent. I simply love my son and do my best for him, and we'll address our mistakes together.
@BLPs
No, you do not really understand how parents feel. You are not a parent. You're a sibling helping raise your sibling--like pretty much any siblings with some separation in their ages.
And 4 year olds do not misbehave. They're four years old. They don't know any better than most things. That's why they need to be watched. And sometimes, the best lessons are learned when the cat lets the kid know "that was not acceptable."
@Quorthon I haven't backpedaled one bit. No I don't drink and never plan on it. It just seems to me you're trying to justify your actions more then anything so I'll just let it go. If you think allowing your child to play or watch what ever they want isn't neglect then there's no reason to continue this conversation.
For everyone with the lazy anecdotes of "Oh, I know some bad parents," I truly doubt that you do, unless you live in one of the worst neighborhoods in the world. Most parents are not the neglectful monsters some of you apparently want them to be.
During my time at GameStop and Best Buy, I very rarely encountered a parent buying an M-rated game for a child. Rather, I encountered--by far--mostly parents who were either gamers themselves (in which case, it's not for me to tell them how to raise their kids), or parents who weren't gamers, but were deeply concerned about video game content as all they'd heard up until that point was insane commentaries from dubious figures like Jack Thompson or Fox News.
It was extremely rare for me to encounter a parent buying their kid a truly inappropriate game. I can think of one occasion only, at GameStop, concerning Saints Row, and there was a language barrier and the guy probably bought it for himself anyway. I was always ready to deliver detailed information to fellow parents, and was happy to see how many were willing to engage in the conversation.
Every parent I know personally also cares about this stuff, and many of them are gamers as well.
I really don't have a problem with kids playing the M rated games, just so long as the parents know the content that is in them... though there are some games out there with content that kids should just not be exposed to.
@Spoony_Tech
So just becuase YOU think a child of 8 isn't mature enough to play GTA that is reason enough to break up another family if they let their kid play the game? Even if the kid is extremely well behaved? Even if otherwise the parents are great parents and good, upstanding citizens? Utterly ridiculous.
@Spoony_Tech
I don't actually need to justify anything. I love my son and I take care of my son, and want him to be an intelligent, skeptical, thinking human being that contributes to the world.
@Gamer83 If you read all my comments then you would see I don't think that.
@Quorthon "I'm wondering what drives this holier-than-thou attitude."
You should have added puts on sunglasses after "drives".
I don't think they should take it this far, but i'm tired parents buying their 10 year olds gta. I think game store employees need to read everything under the rating criteria of a game box, out loud to the parent, before they buy the game for their child. I think parents will think twice then when they hear that a game their 10 year old is playing, is pretty much porn.
This sort of heavy-handed nanny state nonsense brings my blood to a boil. There have been two studies about violent media and the video game one has shown to have had NO effect on children. I'll link the newspaper article here, which has a link to the Journal in which the study can be found.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/nov/10/video-games-violent-study-finds
Allowing your child to play M- or 18+ rated games does not make you a bad parent. I played Doom on SNES when I was 3 years old and games like Duke Nukem and Quake when I was 7, both supposedly very impressionable ages. This has had no bearing on my behaviour whatsoever. I never attack anyone and don't think about hurting others at all. In fact, I didn't even understand Doom properly when I first played it.
This is once again, the age old argument that the government likes to blame video games even when there is EVIDENCE AGAINST INCREASED VIOLENCE AS A RESULT OF PLAYING VIDEO GAMES.
@Quorthon is completely correct about this. Parents need education about what is appropriate for their children and what they can handle. Teachers should NOT be butting in about what a child does after class. Anyone who supports this needs to wake up because no form of media will ever make a person unstable. Anyone who performs acts seen in films, books, comics or video games are most likely mentally unstable to begin with. And infringing on access to media will stifle creativity, expression and more likely PROMOTE such crimes rather than prevent them.
@Quorthon like I said I'm done with this conversation because I've said my piece. If you think it's ok for your kid to do those things then that's fine. Freedom is only as good as long as you abide by the laws and rules of society. Like freedom of speech can be taken away if you abuse it.
Good idea. Get teachers to play the part of big brother. Not just video games, but extend it to DVD's, TV programmes, books, comics, newspapers, cartoons and worst of all rap music.
It is neglect, especially when these kids can expose other children to these games. What you allow in the privacy in your own home is your buisness, assuming you're not breaking the law, but in public spaces i would suggest it is proper parenting to ensure your child is not bringing inappropriate materials to school. People may not like kids getting in trouble for the games they are playing but with if a kid brought playboy to school? I'm sure there might be some issues, it's the same idea just a different medium. That's not to suggest these teachers should instantly narc on these parents, but if history is repeating itself and other children are at risk to being exposed to media that is inappropriate then i think it's reasonable for action to be taken.
There are certainly many parents who ignorantly or willfully disregard video game ratings and neglect to monitor video game content. Even sales tactics need oversight; it's hard to know where to place the blame when a child racks up a huge bill on micro-transactions without parent knowledge.
I'm annoyed equally over the targeting of kids by companies and by the parent who tosses their kid a phone or tablet and walks away.
Still, ratings are for guidance not enforcement. Perhaps stores should be held more accountable, but as a teacher, I do not believe it is the job of a school to threaten parents.
A better tactic would be to reach out in an effort to educate. Something like, "As digital media becomes more and more prevalent in our lives and in the lives of our students, we want to welcome you into a discussion and an exploration of the latest developments with the goal of gaining more control of our digital lives."
Then follow through.
Much better than "We might call an organization that has the power to take your kids from you." Sometimes we as educators get too big for our britches.
This is very entertaining.
I completely agree with quite a few of you, parents should be the ones to decide what their kids can play. While I'm never thrilled to see parents come to my Gamestop buying gta or cod for their kids (especially the hypocrites who yelledat me about my age the first few months I worked there), it's the parents decision and others can't dictate how they raise their kids.
@Spoony_Tech
It's not freedom of speech if it can be taken away. Then it's a privilege. And then we're stepping into Big Brother territory.
If I think it's okay for my kid to do what things? Question authorities? Think for himself? Be given the freedom and opportunity to make his own decisions and mistakes? If anything, my biggest flaw is protecting him too much.
I need to let him fall on his own now and then. Make his own mistakes.
Frankly, it doesn't matter how strict your censorship for your kids. All that's going to do is make those things you perceive as dangerous that much more enticing--and they'll learn to be sneakier when they go after them. I'd rather, personally, teach my kid to be open with me. So instead of sneaking around--he just told me his uncle showed him Terminator (my Dad showed him Top Gun which is like 45% make-out sessions). I said his uncle shouldn't have done that, I was glad he told me, and shrugged my shoulders as, hell, I'd seen The Terminator at that age. It's not like he's going around building futuristic kill-bots.
@Quorthon,
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. In this day and age, having a TV in the home with children can lead to a reasonable assumption that parents are letting the Internet and Cable babysit their children.
Considering IT DOES NO HARM to restrict a minor's access to media in the form of school and the library, I generally would be in favor of a law barring households with children access to television, smart phones, tablets and computers period. Let children play outside, and force parents to play with them.
Allowing parents to have the freedom to decide what content their kids can handle at what age cannot be so absolutely terrible that it is worth destroying families by setting the bureaucracy on them to take their children, especially if legal childhood is going to last until the age of 18, an age that some people are "mature" by and some people aren't. I stongly dislike the idea of parental freedom being criminalized and I strongly dislike the idea of requiring teachers to be the ones who spy on parents and children and report them. Maybe I'm just a crazy American (and we aren't much better sometimes), but I don't think a society where people report each other to a big government for any offense without handing anything on a personal, one-on-one level is really what we want, is it? Should we really make a society where people must be afraid of their neighbours and their government? Can't a teacher have the freedom to talk to the parents instead of reporting them right away if they are concerned instead of being legally required to report for offenses more minor then clear physical abuse?
On a less ideological level, are all games given M ratings in America given 18 ratings in Europe? In Australia, most were given 16 ratings. Almost all 16 year olds could handle Skyrim. It has enough morbidity and violence to make me question if I would give it to a 8 year old kid, but I think most "teenagers" (what a big category to lump every kid between 13 and 18 in) would survive without trauma. I know I did just fine. My dad and I played it together as well and he is a pastor and a respectable guy, so I trust his judgement. There are games with more offensive content than Skyrim (citation needed), but I'm picking an example here. I think most parents could find out a lot about if a game is alright for their children with a Google search and their own judgements. Can we start by encouraging them to do that and skip the part where kids get traumatized by going through a legal battle over whether they can be with their parents because they played Call of Duty? Imagine the guilt. I felt bad enough when I broke a window as a kid. This can't be the healthiest way.
Do the bbfc still age rate games these days? Thats the only age rating i'd pay any attention to as a parent (not there yet). I dont particularly agree with the pegi ratings, in fact i think in general they are nonsense. In future i wouldn't let my kids anywhere near gratuitously violent games like manhunt for example, but fps games have been around since doom, I don't really see the problem with them. I just think good parenting at the end of the day will solve most of these issues. If a kid is going to go off the rails odds are video games aren't the true problem
@bloodycelt
Wow, you basically want to live in a government with the kind of insane controls over society as in Orwell's 1984.
For shame, your misuse of Spock's famous line (it was also misused in Transformers 3 as they would actually have been taking way more lives to "save Cybertron" than if they just forgot about the planet). It doesn't fit at all here.
@MasterBlaster
That's Volume 1, Part A. It'll be available in Kindle form in a few weeks, but you'll need to attach an external storage device.
@MasterBlaster Lol! He seems to just be trying to justify what he's doing as a parent. I don't know him at all. I'm sure from his comments he is a good parent because what parent would go to all this trouble to argue their point. This topic isn't for parents like him so i dont see why he's so passionate about it.
I feel the need to also note that over the past 20 years as video games have really grown into a common past-time of Western countries, violent crime rates have actually dropped drastically, and continues dropping.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/19/as-video-game-sales-climb-year-over-year-violent-crime-continues-to-fall/
@Quorthon And yet many are afraid to go to schools in this day and age for various reasons.
I think the Nantwich Education Partnership could have tackled this differently.
About two years ago, the primary school my children go to sent a letter home to all parents warning about the effects of under age children witnessing / playing COD & GTA as these games were being acted out in the playground. The letter ended reminding parents of their responsibilities and no threats were issued at all.
Now as parent who has been gaming since the spectrum 48k!, I have grown up alongside the games industry and know how to set up parental controls on all devices. The Wii U & 3DS's are fully locked out and have age limits in place. The only thing that is missing is a timer that monitors gameplay and switches the game off automatically like the Kindle Fire.
There a number of 18 rated games in my collection but these are played when the kids are in bed and my kids know that 18 rated games are for daddy only.
The problem comes when parents don't censor what their children are playing and watching and don't research how to put parental controls in place. I know Game has a policy of not selling games to under age children as I have seen this put into practice on a number of occasions.
To be honest what we're discussing here is the same when the whole "video nasty" debate blew up in the 80's
@Spoony_Tech
I'm passionate about freedom and living free of unnecessary government interference. Again, I don't need to justify my actions. Most important for a child is love and attention, and I give that to my kid all the time. He and I play games together and it builds trust.
What disgusts me is that so many self-proclaimed "gamers" here seem to be so eager to side with the Jack Thompsons of the world rather than addressing reality.
As for this: "And yet many are afraid to go to schools in this day and age for various reasons."
What an utterly useless statement. I didn't like going to school when I was a kid. I hated bullies. Do you think mass shootings at schools happen because of video games? What the hell is the point of that sentence?
These are some of the longest comments I have ever seen on this site
These are some of the longest comments I have ever seen on this site
These are some of the longest comments I have ever seen on this site
@Farmboy74
Do you think schools sent home letters like that in the 50's when kids were re-enacting the Lone Ranger or playing "Cowboys and Indians?" Or whatever the British version of that would be... "Noble Britishmen and the rest of the world that we conquered that one time?"
@Quorthon Also at what point did i ever say i was a better parent? We are all trying to do our best but even you have to admit there are parents out there that don't need to have kids right. Like i just said this topic isn't for parents like you it's for neglectful parents that just dont seem to care.
@Quorthon What do you think the kids of the Colinbine (spelling) shootings did years ago? They were reinacting the game Doom i believe. So yes i do believe not only video games but also movies and any media in general can influence a child to act in an inappropriate way. If they don't know wrong from right then the consequences good be bad.
Have fun on your slow decline into communism guys!
Let's just let the community (which ends up being clan-like with someone having more power over everyone in the end) have total control over how we live and what we're exposed to. If my children want to play a game like that, I'll be the one that decides. Not the government, not the community, not my child, ME. I'm not going to let my child be exposed to senseless violence, but I will let them be exposed to the real world, and what it's truly like, a little at a time. As long as they understand, then they won't become sociopathic monsters. As long as they're moral living beings that understand right and wrong, they won't go and kill someone.
@Quorthon, not for one minute have I ever recalled my parents telling me when they had a letter sent home for playing Cowboys & Indians back in the 50's.
Debates like this all about peoples perception of things at that moment in time, the world has changed it's views on a number of things since the 50's
Good!
If people could see the little chips in Dublin that get access to these games you just have to look at the parent beside them, oblivious or couldn't care less about what little Timmy is seeing. ( Timmy is most like a knacker/scob)
Parents should know better or just not have children. When I was small, 20 odd years ago, no over 12/15/18 vids were allowed in the house ever, and I was the youngest. Why isn't that still happening?
I feel parents need serious parent training before they even think of having the ride.
Annoys the crap outta me as a gay man who, in Ireland at least, isn't allowed to adopt a child because a 'straight' parent can clearly do a better Job. sigh, rolls eyes
I had... and still have very little interest in Adult themed games... as a kid I was happy to smash around on Mario Kart and Ocarina of Time... I did however get several games that were rating 15 and 18 such as Perfect Dark and the Turok games... essentially because my parents judge that I knew the difference between really live and gaming ... and despite shooting monsters and people neither game felt inappropriate... I actual found the games themselves were too difficult to play at that age. It should be the parents' call but they should perhaps do a little research it the type of games they let their kids play and if possible play it themselves first.
@Spoony_Tech
HOLY CRAP. You really have no excuse to maintain this Columbine ignorance. Those kids killed because they were terrible human beings, had terrible home lives, struggled with depression, among other things.
You, holy crap, you are as bad as Jack Thompson. What the hell are you even doing here, knowing as little as you do about gaming, or holding such negative stereotypes of this industry?
Do you also blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shootings? Is he at fault? The reports that they made maps of their school in Doom are not even supported--the maps they made were for a group of them who played online together. They were not enacting Doom, and to say so is to admit that you have no idea what you're talking about.
In the past I might have been vehemently against this and claiming those head teachers as knowing nothing. However I think there is a good case for raising awareness of violent games to parents. I am not going to be finger pointing, just considering that they may just be one of many the factors in society that may result in bad behaviour in children.
I know when I was a kid back in the 90's and 2000's a lot of games influenced what I thought about; I thought Dante from Devil May Cry was really cool, I thought Pokémon would be great if they were real, and so on. With friends they'd be incorporated into playing outside or on the playground during school.
Games and any media(movies,film, even books) will have some influence on peoples behaviours in combination with other real world influences. For some kids playing GTA it might affecr nothing about how they behave, for others it might encourage them to swear, for others it might encourage them to fight more(and I don't mean just mean negatively, it could influence a kid to do karate or other practical outlet). It's always wise to be aware of the most extreme side of media especially if children are watching/playing it.
Additionally I think however as of recent due to how connected everything is via the internet and smart devices that the kind of media children have access to is blending with adult media and with less control. The more digital, more connected world has came pretty fast and I think assuming "the rules" of culture, society and media are exactly the same as before or needs no control would be a mistake if not irresponsible.
I personally think some non-18+ games should still come under some scrutiny, specifically free to play games with microtransactions. I believe a government need to intervene need to intoduce a cap on the amount someone can spend on IAPs in a time frame or be treated as gambling and given the same restrictions.
@Farmboy74
The media blows things well out of proportion, and we are bombarded with bad news from countless angles. We, as a society, are soft, in a sense. Not sure how else to phrase it, but over the years, while our media has gotten more violent, people have not. But even then, violence was always a part of media and storytelling. From darkly horrifying fairy tales (many often co-opted as horror films) to war stories, and real war. We live in a society where you need to be 18 to go to war to kill a man, and even then, you're not very likely to be doing that.
Go back in time, and the ages for war go down, or teenagers faked their ages to go fighting, or kids were actively used. We're a reactionary culture these days. Look at @Spoony_Tech --he still lives by the media hype around Columbine, but none of the facts. He was fed that flashy news ticker and fell for it without ever looking deeper or trying to understand. "It was Doom that killed those kids."
Play has always included an element of violence, a "versus" component. Cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians, Star WARS, G. I. Joe, plastic bins full of toy soldiers meeting grisly fates under magnifying glass lenses. Even our sports are aggressive--look at Football (American), Boxing, or Hockey--these are brutal, sometimes deadly sports, but perfectly acceptable for parents to sign up their kids. Looking at the animal kingdom, particularly our fellow mammals, play tends to incorporate violence in some manner.
We're just extra-sensitive as a society, perhaps a note on how comfortable our society really is. We don't have Nazis or Communists at the doorsteps, the real-world threats "from without" are hardly the over-whelming monsters they once were. So we turn within, what's next to fear? And we blow it out of proportion. The worst school shooting in US history was the Bath School Disaster of 1927, with 45 casualties. That predates video games by quite a bit.
School shootings actually share characteristics--and video games never appear to be one of those links. It's downright ignorant to even look at gaming as a point of blame. At most, the choice of game may give us insight to the character of the individual, but not really in any meaningful way. After all, millions of people have played Doom or Call of Duty or GTA without murdering anybody.
The problem in this action from this group of social nannies reflects their ignorance of reality.
Again, as gaming and violent games have grown and spread, real-world violence by these people has actually gone down, and continues to do so.
@rjejr Wooow. I can't believe kids THAT young do Potatoes like that! 6th grade was a lot more innocent for me. Stuff like "bjs" and stuff like that didn't come along till 8th grade! Crazy.
While I do think there are a lot of cases where parents aren't paying enough attention to what their kids are playing and watching, this is NOT the solution.
With increasingly high divorce rates and many parents focusing on their career, many kids aren't getting taught certain lessons, such as knowing the difference between fantasy and reality.
No, letting your child play games like GTA and CoD isn't neglect. So long as you are paying attention and at the very least making sure your kids know the difference between fantasy and reality, then your kids are fine.
Violent video games won't have a majorly negative influence on children. Playing Ace Attorney doesn't make you a lawyer, so how does playing GTA make you a rapist/murderer? The media likes to blame violent video games for tragedies when in reality it's mental health issues.
I think that kids do need protecting from such games. Some parents are very uninformed about games and may be letting them play them out of naivety while others are just negligent. I have some friends who let their 7 year old play GTA because "He just uses it for racing, not the other stuff" which is just delusional. I won't even play Monster Hunter when my kids are in the room.
Yet, I still can't really get behind sending random threateningly letters to all and sundry. If the schools are concerned then the first step would be to send a letter warning parents what is in these games.
My 12 year plays GTA and COD and Far Cry and I have no problems with it.
He is a straight A student, never been in trouble, he is very respectable of others, and a all around great kid.
It is up to me and only me which games I let my kids play.
@Quorthon
My quote should be appended: The needs of the community outweigh the selfish needs of the parent. Improper raising of children is like dumping lead paint into the river, it affects everyone for years later, and costs quite a bit to cleanup.
Unlike 1984, people would still have the choice as to whether they wish to become a parent.
Fascist, hitler youth like societies were not the only governments that handled the raising of children.
Tribal societies often raised children as a community, this is because once the child is an adult, its the community that pays the price for the poor care.
Wow what a situation that school has caused. I'm all for informing because there are games that are just bad for kids. Coming out next month will be mortal kombat X n man that's a game I won't let my kids play. That being said, informing should be the limit. Threatening with police and child services is way too far.
My 12 year old also has his own shotgun, rifle, handgun and bow.
I don't think the law presently supports this. Yes it is illegal for retailers to sell 18-rated games, but this is the first time I've seen any suggestion of trying to push that as a way to pursue parents for making these games available to children.
I can see this being open to all kinds of abuse, however I do think that too many parents take little or no interest in the activities of their children; the fact that we have a law against selling games to minors in the first place speaks to that.
What is being suggested here however isn't "taking children away from parents," but bringing parents to the attention of social work, though I agree you don't really want that. Solution: don't let your kids play 18-rated games when they're well under that age - I wouldn't regardless of my child's age (yes, I'm a parent, as if not being one disqualifies someone from having an opinion on this topic).
@IceClimbers
I think kids know better the differences between fantasy and reality, as a whole, these days, simply because information is so readily available. Adults, on the other hand, seem increasingly prone to fantasies--be it Conspiracy Theories, ghost hunting, going to Chiropractors, what have you. These are some dangerous adults to have around.
@Sean_Aaron Very well said!
@freaksloan
My house had lots of guns when I was a kid. I'll be inheriting them from my Dad at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if that AR-15 ends up in my home sooner rather than later (I'm the only one of his kids actually trained to use it). He's sorting things now.
True, many kids cannot maturely handle the content in 18+ games, but isn't it up to the parents to truly gauge the maturity of their child? If there's an innocent child, don't ruin it. If there's a mature, independent, and responsible child, go for it. Don't let others make your judgement call!
@Sean_Aaron
Just because you have a law against it doesn't make it right. It was "against the law" in the US for homosexuals to get married, and that certainly wasn't right--it actually prevented people from having rights.
The "law" was also used to round up Jews for extermination in Germany, or used to imprison people for minimal reasons to work in Gulags in the Soviet Union, or used to imprison people for the dreaded crime of being Japanese in the United States.
Just because it's "against the law" to sell those games does not mean that law is right. It means the government is over-regulating your lives.
It's also against the law to perform/receive oral sex in far too many states in the US. Not only has every healthy human being engaged in this, all healthy adults should. Because it's awesome.
@Moneyjaypr7
Yeah, I'm getting Mortal Kombat X, but won't be playing it with my kid. He and I have Injustice to play, anyway.
@JakeOfAllTrades Who's going to judge the maturity of some of the parents. Not all parents are fit to be parents and it's things like this that can get a child out of a bad situation. That's all I'm saying. Not everyone wanted to have a child and their actions some times show it.
My main argument is to have all children safe from harm. Kids are taken away from drug abusers all the time but some times it's too late. Children go hungry because the parent would rather spend all their money on gambling. There's all kinds of forms of neglect. Sure an M rated game seem harmless compared to what I just said but the child's mind is much different then ours and don't process things like adults do.
@bloodycelt
Now that's better. I'm all in favor of not raising another leech on society, but at the same time, there's only so much I can do. Each generation has it's own characteristics. Coincidentally, my girlfriend and I read about Gen X and the Millenials (Gen Y) over the weekend, and noted that there are overlying characteristics that tend to define the majority of said generations. I'm X and she's Y, so we had fun measuring our "generational differences."
Apparently Gen Y people are considerably more narcissistic, but Gen Xers defied the slacker image that came to define us.
It'll be interesting to see what comes to define our children, or our children's children.
In general I'm for this, as long as it happens in a good way. I agree that young kids shouldn't play 18+ games, I totally agree. However, I'm not sure the police is the right solution. And you have to make some borders. I know plenty of kids from 13 who play 18+ games, and while that's still a little young, it's already a lot less bad than when 8 year olds play them.
@Quorthon
We are now surrounded by 24 hour news coverage which as a society has de-sensitised us to violence.
If I remember right wasn't the Matrix blamed for what happened at Columbine?,
Here in the UK the game Postal, was blamed for a murder carried out in the 90's with my local MP pushing for a ban on games and all sorts.
The fact is, the people who carried out these crimes had some pretty serous issues going on. Blaming violence in games and films is an easy way out for society to handle things and unfortunately then leads to the nanny state stepping in.
@Spoony_Tech
I'm sure there are better methods in place, and better measures for defining those minority poor parents from the rest of us who clearly care about our kids as our societies are not utter trainwrecks. You're still overwhelmingly putting emphasis on defining "bad parents" by what video games they buy or let their kids play.
And that is not only a stupid way to measure "healthy parenting" from "unhealthy parenting," but it completely ignores important issues that should be noted. What kind of stupid, asinine metric is this? You might as well judge people by which brand of TV they own, if the TV is basic cable or has premium channels, or if their car needs a new muffler.
Video game purchases do not correlate with parenting skills at all.
You know what does? Here, I'll simplify, this is the one way to measure a the quality of parenting: Is the child happy, healthy, and loved?
If yes, good parenting is probably happening. If not, then it's not automatically bad parenting, there is deeper investigation that should probably be done.
Frankly, if someone tried to call child services on me for playing an M-rated game with my kid, I would sue the hell out of them for trying to destroy my family. I could take everything they own, and it still would not make up for the threat they made to my son and his home.
@Farmboy74
Totally agree. Was the Matrix also part to blame? I thought that came out after Columbine happened. I wouldn't be surprised. The media seemed to want to blame everyone but the killers themselves.
@MasterBlaster LMAO 😄
What's worrying me is whether games like Fire Emblem or Zelda may be considered adult? Kids won't play those games even though Nintendo clearly censors content most of the time.
@JakeOfAllTrades You can't really assume every parent is able to make a sound judgement by themselves.
Some parents might just not care what their kids do or the consequences. Some parents may simply not be aware of the content of the games and buy them even thought if they were aware of the content they wouldn't. Other parents might think they're being a great, responsible parent for making their child happy and getting their kid the game all the other kids at school or all their friends are playing.
Lack of information/communication is the key issue, I think if parents knew more about the games content or the potential issues more of them would be able to make the decision that is appropriate for their child.
Probably few or none of us think children should be playing these games. Why do any of us love to see graphic and ultra gory depictions of brutal violence? I don't think these kinds of things are a cause of violence, but I wonder why so many of us like it.
@Quorthon So you don't think what a child watches or plays has ANY influence on there behavior whatsoever? If that's your stance then you'd be wrong. Not all children will act out on the negative things they see but it's still there in there minds and over time that can desensitize what they perceive as reality. For instance I just bought my son Code Name Steam so we can Both play against each other. After a gaming session he says I killed you daddy. Would he had said that any other time? No, the game had influenced him to say it. Now if he goes out of the house and to school and starts saying that to his friends then the teacher gets word of it then that could start problems. Sure it was harmless enough when said but now he doesn't have the logic to not say this outside of the house because maybe I failed as a parent to let him know it's just a game and we don't talk like that.
Either way I'm done and tired. You keep up this crusade you're on for whatever reason. I never said I was better then you and you seem to just be focusing on the negative you're taking out of my comments.
I suspect that a lot of the people buying these kinds of games for their kids are simply remnants of a generation that is just unfamiliar with games as they weren't very pervasive while they were growing up. I think most parents that grew up with video games will simply be more aware of content in various types of games and will be less likely to buy their child a completely inappropriate game. Maybe we'll see some decline in this kind of thing as video game savvy generations have children.
Then there are parents that just don't care. They will always be around.
@Robotron2084 I totally agree. Plus, criminalizing or threatening parents with child services for buying or letting their child play a game that's not in their age rating is terrible.
This is ridiculous of the teachers to do this. If they're targeting video games, why are they not targeting television or movies too? I'm just guessing these teachers are really uniformed or extremely biased. Doing this kind of thing will not change a thing. It's like the war on drugs and how it failed terribly.
(The ratings are there for a reason people! If others ignore that, there's not much we can do.)
Also, lets say child services ends up taking a child, who'd be willing to take care of that child? For all I know, foster homes are hell on earth, and if the parent was doing an adequate job of taking care of their child, why should we take their child away (or even arrest the parent)?
I know these teachers are trying to do the right thing, but police and child services aren't the way to go about this issue.
@Spoony_Tech
Your comments have been repeatedly on the Jack Thompson side of this issue. All media is related to life and some things influence life, and vice versa. Now, did Codename STEAM inspire your son to actually kill you? Did you correct his language? Did you say, "no, you beat me. I'm just defeated, and next time, I'll get you!" to maintain levity and keep it fun? Or did you lay low a lecture on it and feel like your son is now a murderer?
I use selective language with my kid, and all of it in jest, as he does with me. I keep it light, no matter what. It's a video game. If you take it seriously, your kids will absorb that. If you take it lightly, they'll take it that way. My son has killed me a few times in Helldivers, so I quip "try being a team player, maybe" or "geez, you sure love killing your Dad." Lot of friendly fire in that one.
You paint such a bleak, grim picture. Did his eyes glow red when he said that you were dead? I'm curious if you just took the game away or what. You indicated that your kid was 8, and that's well below the actual rating for STEAM. By your own logic, that makes you a neglectful parent. You neglected your child by allowing him to play a game for someone older.
I'm not twisting your words, this is a mirror. You stated, very clearly, that parents who allow their underage (per rating) children to play violent games are neglecting them.
I sincerely hope you addressed the issue with humor and a quick correction, and nothing else rather than the dark manner in which you reflected the behavior. I'd not want to put emphasis on that, myself. And as my son has grown older, our most common games are co-op. So it's mostly focused on working together, rather than against each other. Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris was a great co-op title. We had to work together not only to survive, but to solve and work on puzzles.
Your options for that are limited on the Wii U--but you can always do it in Smash Bros, just put yourselves on a team against the CPU.
Kids will copy things they see in TV, movies, media, etc. But for the vast, vast, vast majority of healthy, particularly mentally healthy human beings, they aren't going to kill something in a video game and then do it in real life. But where they get the most of their influences--is from their parents. If Mom or Dad are regularly following media on TV and acting out on it, then so too will the kid. Usually what's copied is dialog.
That doesn't mean Codename STEAM turned your underage child into a murderer. And if he said, "I killed you," then where did he learn that, if you have your censorship so perfectly applied to your children? It would seem, then, he learned that from you.
@Robotron2084
Brilliant post. Truly.
@Artwark
Fire Emblem Awakening featured a high profile suicide written into the plot and permanent death for characters. Zelda games have historically featured violent content.
It's interesting, over at PushSquare (the Sony version of this site), the opinions are exactly the opposite--most there agree that this is a few officials overstepping their bounds and targeting gaming unfairly for petty reasons.
Nintendo fans, on the other hand, seem to be all for censorship and calling officials on parents who dare buy a video game. No doubt, this is because the targeted games are seen as "non-Nintendo" or "anti-Nintendo" in some absurd way--disregarding that Bayonetta 1 was a PEGI 18 title, and Bayonetta 2 was PEGI 16 for some reason.
I say they should add Zelda and Fire Emblem games to this list. See how the opinions change. Because I think there's some fanboyism guiding this, and you can see it--a bizarre joy in seeing adult-centric games like Call of Duty and GTA targeted in some childish "that'll show 'em" manner.
@Spoony_Tech The problem I have with this law is that it doesn't specify M rated games so in other words parents could let their 9 year old play an E10+ game and have their kid taken away from them...while I do agree about fines in certain cases with M rated titles this law takes things WAY TOO FAR.
Shouldn't parents decide what media their kids can enjoy? I hope any teacher who follows through with this is terminated for overstepping their authority.
@Quorthon what a bunch of nonsensical hyperbole. This law is so far from your examples it's an insult to people who've suffered actual oppression to even make the comparison. There's a law against selling 18-rated games to minors here, just like many places make it against the law to sell them alcohol or pornography. No doubt you think all such places are also just like nazi Germany.
Sorry, but just because someplace isn't completely anarchic doesn't make it a fascist dictatorship...
Parents should be INFORMED on this sort of stuff, not threatened by the authorities. I do agree that little kids shouldn't be playing 18-rated games because I think it mostly turns them into disgusting individuals. Yet, some kids are mature about the stuff in those games and the parents are fine with it. It should be the parents who put restrictions on what games their children play, not the schools. It's really none of the school's business to be honest.
Since I am on the other side of the pond, I may be shaky on the finer points of the law so i will avoid that mostly. I am however a parent, and lived through the trama of playing Mortal Kombat (sarcasm people) in my younger years.
I think we as a society need to do more to protect the innocence of children. Far too many children are forced to deal with things they are not mentally or developmentally capable of handling. This isn't just a gaming issue either, but all media. An easy example is that a thirteen year-old girl shouldn't brought to tears because she doesn't look like the airbrushed models on a magazine, or measure up to some arbitrary societal standard.
I do not agree with the method here, it is heavy handed and lazy. it is like the mentality of just giving money to the homeless person instead of going to the restaurant with them, sitting down with them and engaging them as a fellow human being. Real solutions and real efforts to protect children take time and require you to get messy and dirty.
I do agree we need to do better as a collective society. As I've said before however, you cannot legislate morality.
@Neko_Rukiafan What I think everyone is doing is taking this whole topic way to far. No teacher is going to call out any parent unless they feel like there is something seriously wrong. If this is simply a law to take away parental responsibility then by no means do I support it. However if this is something that leads to a bigger problem then I'm all for it. My children are healthy and love and that's all I care about.
I don't think games should be singled out because I believe movies and to a lesser extent songs can be just as bad and in most instances worse.
This isn't going to be as simple as you're 9 you can't play this game. If that's the case then we'll we will have millions of kids taken away from their families as I don't know any kid that doesn't play at the very least a 10 rated game.
@lividd3ad YES! I see that every single day!!
I remember many of the kids at my Primary School loved watching the Nightmare On Elm Street series on VHS copied tapes. Should sovcial services have got involved? No. Obviously.
That's ridiculous! I think it should be up to the parent's own discernment whether or not their children can play M games or not. No need for child freaking services to get involved!
If I had kids of my own, I personally would not let them play certain games until they were old enough, but for teachers to go telling parents that they need to take away M rated games from their underage children, and threatening to call Child Services if they don't is absurd!
@SecondServing - It doesn't bother me too much what kids say, there have always been bullies, but it's the smartphone usage which puts things over the top. There's more "Adult" stuff in kids pockets than on videogame consoles.
A prime example of a government with too much power.
@Quorthon That can correlate with parenting skill, if a parent lets their 7 year old kid go into a random video game store, pick any game and buy it, I'm sorry, even if the child is happy, healthy and loved, you're doing something wrong.
:U That is just a huge waste of time and resoursces to put on Police and Social Service's plate.
I can only speak for myself when I say this, but to legally reprimand parents for allowing their children to play 18+ games isn't as black and white as they assume. I mean sure, if the parents deliberately allow their kids to dabble in adult content then the neglect charge can be applied, but kids are clever and sneaky these days. I've seen kids convince their parents to buy them Mafia II when it came out saying that they could filter the adult content, or some crap like that.
Best you can hope for, really, is that you do your best to inform parents about the extent of the content. Perhaps show them a clip on YouTube or a highlight reel from the developer about exactly how explicit the content might be, and then let them make that decision to buy it or not. At least that way, the only persons at fault are the parents should they decide to get the game anyway.
This is incredibly stupid; the parent should be able to decide wether or not their child can handle it; or watch them as they're playing it, and take it away from them if needed. Some games are M for Mature simply for horror; news flash, not all of us minors are fazed by horror. Teachers should have no say in what their students play, unless said student(s) is their child.
I've come to this thread quite late, but as a parent, gamer and (shock and horror!) a primary school teacher, I feel the need to clarify a few things.
Firstly, at no point has the Nantwich Partnership made a correlation between these games and increased violent behaviour. As a gamer this kind of lazy blame throwing, targeting videogames as the root of all violent acts by young people gets my goat as much as the next person. But the letter, which I have read in full, does not make that link, rather it acknowledges that by playing them the children are potentially exposed to violent or sexualised images at a young age. As far as I can see this cannot be disputed, you play a violent videogame as a child, or as an adult, you are exposed to violent images. Attacking the schools and teachers for saying there is such a link is putting words into their mouths.
Secondly the letter states that this may be reviewed as neglect. There appears to be some confusion here with what that means. Neglect is not intentionally harming a child, that is abuse. Rather neglect is putting a child at harm through inaction. This may be obvious, such as not feeding a child, but can be less clear cut, such as a parent not accepting the consequences of a child's medical condition and failing to seek help, or a parent that allows a potentially dangerous adult into the life of their child. That doesn't mean that the parent does not love that child, but rather that they are being neglectful in their duties as a parent first.
Whether you view allowing an underage child to play a game as neglect is open to debate. Personally I think it is wrong that children as young as 8 at my school are playing Call of Duty or GTA, and believe me they are, but I also accept that the age ratings are a guidance and an older teenage child may well play something they are not quite the right age for, with an informed parents consent. I know I did as a teenager. But I would not allow my son, who is 7, anywhere near my mature games, but I do feel it is alright for him to play Smash Bros, with a rating of 12. I know that he is mature enough in himself.
But the point that seems to be upsetting most here is the idea that the schools are becoming the ones policing parents. But you have to understand the position the schools are in. Following the recent historical abuse allegations and the big cover ups in some cases, particularly Rotherham, the government has made it clear that any one in a position such as care, who does not report any concerns for abuse or neglect, can be held criminally responsible. But beyond that no guidance has been given to what degree this needs to be done. The Nantwich Partnership actually state in their letter that they are doing this on the advice of the councils safeguarding team, i.e. the same people responsible for social services. The school has little choice now but to report these.
Now it is highly unlikely that one report of a child playing COD underage is going to result in that child going into care. What will happen instead is that the school, social services and the police will instead look to see if there is a pattern emerging with a child. For example, is that child who played COD also constantly hungry, withdrawn socially and have a medical condition which the parent is not seeking help for. Then you have a pattern of neglect.
Like it or not as gamers, but I have seen children who have unhealthy obsessions with certain games, but it is never the only reason for concern.
So in looking at this, please bear in mind the full context around what has actually been done here and don't get sucked into thinking, by the same media that would blame videogames for every death caused by a teenager, that this is an attack on gamers or caring parents.
I know a parent, who is a fellow professional artist and old school punk rocker. He doesn't let his kids play high age rated violent games.
Ever heard of the Alice Cooper song Wicked Young Man? Some kids are gonna get their hands on stuff they shouldn't, and do things they shouldn't, then blame adults. It isn't frightening what kids say, but rather what adults are willing to believe. You want the law to micro manage your house just because some kids with growing minds aren't watching Barney, but rather playing a video game? Enjoy. Let us all know how much you like it when you slip up yourself.
I grew up during an interesting time. Mortal Kombat was a brand new thing when I was in fourth grade. I don't think anybody was prepared for that like they are now. If children are TAUGHT and DISCIPLINED, they'll know that whats on a game or movie STAYS on the disc. If I blamed something on my game system or did something wrong, know what my dad would have done? Locked it in the trunk. For weeks. When I started yelling at the original Super Mario Kart until I was annoying, I was corrected. I didn't DARE use foul language. Even in 2nd grade I knew the consequences of that!
This same dad took me to KISS concerts when I was 6. I'm glad nobody threw him in jail. I'm now a military veteran with a clean criminal record. These teachers need to open their Marry Poppins parasols and float away to their fantasy world where kids pick up knitting rather than wanting to be men and women someday.
Instead, stores/companies that sell video-games should hand out sheets of paper—or something of the sort—teaching their consumers (mainly the parents buying for their children) about the various ESRB/PEGI ratings, to let them know what they're getting into (or letting their kids get into).
Kids will copy things they see in TV, movies, media, etc.
I don't remember jumping on mushrooms and turtles when I was a kid.
@Bass_X0 That's because it was so traumatizing, you repressed it. I mean, the growing a raccoon tail would be terrifying.
EDIT: Because my brain is fried here at work and I used the wrong version of a word.
Even though young kids shouldn't be ultra-violent 18+ games, I don't think this is a matter the police should be involved in.
Perhaps the focus should instead be on raising awareness of the meaning of the age ratings and the content of games instead of just trying to ban something and getting the police involved.
Some woman brought a baby with her to 50 Shades of Gray Valentines night.
Seriously, wtf? Hire a damn baby sitter next time you go to the movies, geeze. Seriously there are so many idiotic parents it's rediculous.
My mom got me a Block Buster Jr membership card when I was a teen, with a "No R-Rated Movie Rentals" printed in red on the card. I accepted it. Plenty of fun times to be had with PG-13s.
And I'm an adult gamer with no kids yet the majority of games I play today are rated E-E10, although there are exceptions in my collection like Bayonetta 2 and Conker's Bad Fur Day for N64. But I may be the exception since I loathe most modern FPS games.
@VR32F1END
I agree with you, that's what parents should do. That is a caring parent who makes sure that their child knows right from wrong. But not all would and that is where it becomes neglectful.
But as for attacking the teachers over it, as I said above, we've been put between a rock and a hard place. We are now potentially criminally responsible for not reporting these things, in this case the group of schools were advised by the council who run social services that they should report, if they don't they potentially land in it.
I actually bought this up in my staff room today and it was universally agreed that the whole thing is a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but it's not the teachers that want to be put in that position, it's the government and councils forcing them to be.
Tricky issue for sure. I have been an elementary teacher for close to 4 years now and all I will say is that I do not think that kids should be playing GTA or CoD. That said, I think it's up to the parents to give a damn about what their kids are experiencing and what they have access to. Students are my responsibility in the classroom; when the bell rings and they leave they are no longer my responsibility.
It'll be interesting to see if any teachers make good on these threats and what kind of legal repercussions there will be once the police determine its a load of bollux. Its the equivalent of a crank call and should face similar fines.
While I do agree that parents need to take more responsibility for what their kids play I think this is the wrong way to go about it. People complain all the time about COD being infested with 12 year olds it because uninformed parents bought the game because their kid wanted it without even considering the content and whether or not it was right for his/her age. Its pretty sad that the majority of parents are to ignorant to do their research properly
@Robotron2084 Wonder how long it'll be before the Daily Mail tries to pin the recent plane tragedy on a video game the pilot played
@Neko_Rukiafan Looks like you shouldn't have too much issue (though I'm still somewhat against the idea that parents could be accused of neglect - which to my mind, is a pretty serious accusation and shouldn't be treated lightly) - "If your child is allowed to have inappropriate access to any game or associated product that is designated 18+, we are advised to contact the police and children's social care as this is deemed neglectful," the letter read.
'If your child is allowed to have inappropriate access to any game or associated product that is designated 18+, we are advised to contact the police and children's social care as this is deemed neglectful."
Pfffft, i guess that makes my parents neglectful. I was playing Fantasy strip poker on the amstrad when I was three, and I turned out alright. Bloody PC police.
Pretty sure the age rating pertains to if someone is allowed to purchase a game not if they are allowed to play it. You can't call the police for that.
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@DarkKirby
Love it.
@Monado_III
Wrong by what standards? Healthy isn't just a fancy word without meaning, it refers to emotion and physical health.
I saw R-rated movies at that age, the first movies I remember seeing in the theater were Die Hard 2 and Top Gun (not R), and I turned out fine, per my own evaluation and absurdly rigid standards.
Are you saying my parents were doing something wrong? They knew their kids, they knew how to deal with us.
Your "correlation" does not work. If the child is healthy, happy, and loved and still playing Mortal Kombat, the parenting that makes them healthy, happy, and loved will trump anything in Mortal Kombat. You're making an absurd statement that a violent video game will not only undo love and attention from a parent, but also genetics. Only those who are already highly at risk--emotionally disturbed like that psycho that tried to shoot up a sorority--would be in any way negatively affected, and the problem there STILL isn't video games.
YOU HAVE NO DATA TO BACK UP YOUR COMMENT.
@Sean_Aaron
These kinds of laws are the very slippery slope that lead to lost freedoms and rights. Mild hyperbole or not, a valid point. This is people sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and trying to legislate behavior that harms no one.
I'd recommend that some people read this article: http://venturebeat.com/community/2010/06/05/my-four-year-old-son-plays-grand-theft-auto/
I don't think it's inherently wrong for a kid to play some M-rated games, as long as the game does not force that content at the child and that a parent is present, monitoring and constantly considering what the child is doing. I'm not a parent. I'm far from being a parent, but I don't doubt that M-rated games and R-rated movies, among other types of media can't be used in a way to help raise children. Overprotective parenting isn't a better alternative to neglectful parenting and both are selfish. Moderate what your kid reads hears, sees, and plays, but don't just leave him or her clueless. Expose them, but explain.
If a teacher sent me that kind of note, I would draw Fred Rechid's on that note, and rev it back to them :3 I sorta did that in skool!
......Anyways, I'm not a parent (yet), but I would let the future little offspring of me (hoping for a boy, CUZ I need to continue the line of our first namez!) play something M-rated. My parents were like "if it has too much of this in it, then nope, but if it don't, then A-OKAY!", basically, the biggest one I could not get around back in my day was "suggestive themes" cause I grew up with 3 sisters, and they might've gotten offended or some poooooooop >: Y I remember wanting a Dead or Alive game, I enjoyed a demo, and wanted to buy it, but one of my sisters was like to my Mom "This is the fighting game where the almost naked girls fight around with big boobies!", so I could not get it...........But I still played games that had that kind of stuff (thanks Dad), and look at me now! I'm so swelltastic, that I would rather watch Spongebob then boobies! Some random guy I did not know at work said to me "Hey, check out that lady" and I was like "I see a lady, now I have to get back to work" and he was like "are you not interested!?!" And in my head, I was like "I would rather play a nice game with my Jigglypuff, if I had one in real life....." but to him, I said "Nope".
..........So if you didn't understand any of this, then all and all, I played those kind of violent games back in the day, but I turned out fine and swell, and i'm @SheldonRandoms, so that must be saying a lot =w=
Now if only this could happen in the US. Kudos to these teachers for actually looking at age ratings! Over here we have elementary kids refusing to get anything without murdering and sexual content.
@VR32F1END
For the most part, I agree with your post, except for the part about knitting, as my girlfriend is very big into that. Knitting can be very cool. Observe:
Also, my kid's first concert was an outdoor Alice Cooper show at a festival. He was 2. We were pretty far back. It was really more of a fair that focused on food, but with awesome live music than a concert, but still. Alice Cooper.
This is irresponsible at best and dangerous at worst. Many adults these days are gamers and have kids too. This is the sort of person that knows better than to let their five year old play COD, of course, but what if little Johnny just wants some father-son bonding time? Are you going to say no to letting him watch you play GTA V? Not every parent would. And that's not neglect. Because consider this: how is that different from being allowed to hang out with your dad and watch a few scenes of an R-rated film he happens to be watching? Now some people, their parents never let them do this. Others, it was OK. Either way, I'm guessing you grew up all right. But suddenly one group is having the police and child services called on them. How messed up is that?
Consider that someone could be lying about little Johnny or little Susie seeing Mom or Dad's games. Maybe Mom and Dad only play the mature games after the kids go to bed because they DON'T think it's appropriate for them to see a little bit of Bloodborne or whatever. But they have the games in the house and that's what matters. So some parent (or kid) with a grudge says, "Oh, Susie/Johnny is playing mature games! Mr. and Mrs. Gamer have loads of them!" Well then the police are called and when they show up, sure enough there are the games and how do you prove the kids haven't been exposed to them? If you can have your kids taken away just for having mature games then something has gone terribly wrong.
I'm not saying that it's come to that but even starting down that path is just... effed up is the nicest way to put it.
Jump to 39:30 for discussion of this article on Radio 2 today if anyone's interested.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05nsbb3
Hilarious way to waste Police time - why deal with real issues when you can report gamers lol.
Just like to point out that one county in England does not =UK.
Please let's keep pro and con religious debate out of this.
Also, please keep the conversation civil.
@Quorthon If there's a slippery slope, restricting sales of 18-rated games isn't it. Pick a battle worth fighting.
I know I'm from the US and its not my place to judge....but doesn't this seem a little much. I think most people don't give enough kids credit, they are very good at processing things that are inappropriate (and I don't mean cussing, kids just find that hilarious I know I did) but they aren't going to start murdering people because they did it in GTA. I wouldn't want this kind of policing on movies, so why put it on games, seems like a restriction that will do less good than bad.
@Firebird3334 Your comment didn't go unseen!
Your comment wasn't the only one deleted or edited. For further questions, please use the contact form.-MorphMarron
I remember a lady on the bus with her 5 or 6 year old telling me how GTA was his favourite...
As frustrated as I was being a 14 year old whose parents wouldn't let him have Goldeneye, I think age ratings are there for a reason. The younger you are the more impressionable.
Mind you that didn't stop me playing Goldeneye at my friends house
@Quorthon No, just because a child is healthy, happy, and loved doesn't mean their parents are doing a good job, my example shows a parent that doesn't care about what their child is exposed to and thus is being downright lazy by not even looking into what their child is doing, I'm not saying if they allowed it they're bad parents but to not even look into it is being a bad parent. If they looked into what was in those games/movies and decided it was okay because they think their child is mature enough to handle it great! let your kid play that game/watch that movie. But if you don't even attempt to look into the content, even if you would allow your child it, is being a bad parent. I've seen far to many parents who've bought their 7 year old GTAV but then gone and ridiculed that same child for playing something far less graphic and mature than GTA.
I remember, not to long ago, seeing a ~10 year old pick up GTA, but then not being allowed to buy FFXIII because his mother had a friend who shared the game theory episode that was titled "Why FF is anti-religion" via facebook even though she admitted to not actually watching it. I was so close to walking there and telling her how bad of a parent she was.
@Quorthon There's no way this is going to go so far as to actually remove kids from their homes (at least not without further evidence of neglect). After all, the legal basis is extremely shaky. The idea is that by threatening such action or actually arranging some preliminary visits, the parents will then be more educated on what kind of entertainment is inappropriate for their children.
Anyway, good for them. I don't know if this will really accomplish much, but it's nice to see people take a stand over the fact that it's much harder to keep inappropriate video games away from children than it is to keep them out of R-rated movies (although even there parents need to be careful not to buy them the DVD/Blu-ray or order them off of Netflix, but then again parents also seem to be more educated and strict when it comes to movies).
@64supermario Just because they can process it doesn't mean it won't affect and desensitize them. If a parent and young child happened upon a bloody murder scene before the police were able to clean it up, you'd expect the parent to cover the child's eyes, wouldn't you? The same thing also applies if they caught a couple of exhibistionists having sex in a public park or even just blocking porn sites on the family computer.
Exposing minors to restricted material can harm their development, it can leave them with symptoms similar to children who have been physically abused or even sexually abused if the material has sexual content (which is why predators use restricted material to groom kids), and can (not always) make children more accepting of violence and sex.
Some kids have none or slight negative effects, some can even have symptoms similar to kids who live in war zones.
It's illegal to give restricted material to a minor, and teacher's have to report it as a mandatory reporter, or they could lose their jobs and face charges themselves, particularly as it can also be an indicator of real abuse.
There's plenty of evidence out there, and no reason for anyone especially to give this sort of material to pre-teens.
@StitchScout It's illegal to GIVE restricted material to a minor, that would have to be proved. If another child gave them the material then the other child would be fined. If nobody gave it to them and they borrowed without permission, then nobody gave it to them.
I can speak from experience as I am 15 and have followed the rating systems very strictly with exceptions of some games such as tony hawk or legend of zelda. Although I feel some games are more strictly rated than others (Like HALO).
@Quorthon I see kids purchasing that type of game with their parents all the time, since I am a 15 year old Iknow 95% of the kids I know own this type of game.
Maybe warn parents if they are like 10 or younger but these teachers are pathetic.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/go+too+far
@BulbasaurusRex You are using extreme examples in that scenario and it would be rational to do so, but you know that this is not even remotely on that level. I have a cousin, who is younger than me by about 5 years who grew up with horror movies (Rated R/PG-13 of course) throughout his entire life. He loved them when he was around 7 and now wants to make his own. He never became a felon of any sort or was traumatized by it. I don't think this applies with every kid obviously, but kids process different things at different ages as others and don't always see it as the black and white that older people do. And before we go off on this tangent, no I don't think there is much difference on the impact of kids from movies to games, interaction or not. Unless a WELL-TRUSTED study comes out proving me wrong (with years of study) I'm sticking to that gun.
Comment section has exploded.... LOL...
What's the point of bringing in the authorities? Parents should watch what their children play, but it is not even the school's business what its students play.
I agree that kids shouldn't be playing games like that, but it's the parents' responsibility. Leave social services out of it.
I signed up just to comment on this. Also, please read this. I'm not gonna say this is just bull cause I like Video Games, but I'm gonna try to make a valid point.
First off, if UK schools are like the US's, since when have they given a f**k about anything. Instead of directing themselves to more important things, they are focusing on stuff with no real purpose. Video games have been proven to not alter your thinking in any way thus making you violent or anything.
Also, 6, 7, 9 or whatever year olds have been going to PG13 movies since the crack of dawn. No one even thought to bring it up as a concern. In my opinion, it's the fact that label "video games" is present making this a bigger deal than it should be.
But yeah, this is pretty stupid when you look at it. And shouldn't they have to violate property to go into my house and search the friggin place to see if I have like Evolve or Tomb Raider laying around my house? I bet the first Volume of Uncanny X Men had more violence than Bravely Default but now my parents have to be arrested for that.
Reporting it to the police and social services? What?
Granted, I have no idea how the UK works with things like this, but around here (and as it should be anywhere) ratings are guidelines and nothing more. A game rated 18+ may be perfectly suitable to one 8 year old, and not suitable whatsoever for another. Kids are as different as adults, and it's sad that in many cases this is not accounted for.
Playing for example Postal 2 as a 6 year old didn't impact me in any negative fashion whatsoever. I'd rather say the opposite actually.
Though it is true that plenty of parents are neglectful, and don't know what they're really letting their kids access, this is going too far honestly.
@Contrite
I love you. Every word you said was perfect. I will pay you every cent I have
While I think its important for parents to be made more aware of and educated about the rating system, this here is not the way to go about it. Reporting parents to social services for neglect is a HUGE accusation to make even as a bluff, never mind over something as relatively minor as what kind media they're allowed access to.
Its not just some little slap on the wist and off you go if they choose to investigate it, the department would take it very seriously as they would any other case. Whats even scarier is there are a number of people actually OK with this, either based on what they deem the "right" way to parent, or its a sign there might be something wrong.
That's a HUGE slippery slope to go down. Following that logic, being "overly" shy/quiet is a sign of neglect too, so should parents of kids with those types of personalities be reported too then? It only says "children who are allowed access to games/products designated R18+" so what constitutes a "child" in this case? Nobody 17 or under can legally buy them, and are all considered minors, so where do we draw the line? Who makes that choice?
As for mature-rated content itself, its been proven many times that violence in media does not negatively impact people, not even children. Its actually proven to be beneficial. The only form of neglect is if the parents don't pay attention to what they give their kids, but if they do then who's to say they're wrong for allowing it?
They're potentially jumping he gun a little. Rather than threatening with the police and social services, why not first bring the parents in to discuss their concerns. Some parents may have felt their child mature enough to play these games knowing full well what they entail, in which case it's not neglect though there may be other issues like the impact it's having on others in the class which need to be addressed. It may be they're unaware of exactly what the game entails in which case explaining it to them will help them take action. It may be the kid is lying because of peer pressure!
Kids always try and access adult content, back at school we used to have regular trips to the library and half the class would borrow Steven King novels until a parent complained to the teacher who then had to tell the library not to lend these books to kids and monitor what we were picking better. It happens.
"Also, 6, 7, 9 or whatever year olds have been going to PG13 movies since the crack of dawn"
I think its actually been since the dawn of man
Stupid people these days...
If wee Jonny wants to play GTA, then he's sure as hell gonna get to play it. My cousin's kids use pester power to get their own way, as much as she resists the inevitable happens and she caves in to their demands.
I don't recall playing such violent games myself at that age (NES/SNES era), and I sure as hell don't like them now (aged 36). I really don't see any clear cut way of solving the age old (no pun intended) problem of age ratings.
The teacher's are stepping out of line by calling this neglect and involving social services, who's resources are stretched enough dealing with REAL social needs for children that are ACTUALLY being neglected through parent/gaurdian abuse, not some age rating logo on a product of someone's past time.
@MasterBlaster
Only since the dawn of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom--which instigated the rating.
@BulbasaurusRex
I don't know how it is in the UK, but a single call of neglect to social services in the States can lead to a string of problems and harassment, not the least of which is a parent being improperly labeled as some kind of danger to their own children.
@CyanSolution247
That's a pretty awful anecdote. 95%, huh? You may only know 10 people, and you and 8 others your age--all with similar interests in gaming--may own the game and that doesn't mean a damn thing to the wider picture.
For that matter, even if your number is accurate (highly doubt), how many of them are suddenly murdering people because of the video games? I'm betting the number is still zero.
@MadAdam81
You talk a lot about evidence, indicating that violent games warp kids, but have provided none of the evidence you claimed.
Frankly, given the number of unstable people here who think video games make you violent (as we project ourselves onto others when judging them), by all means, list the games that tend to make you violent.
Because violent games never did that for me. I'll admit right now, the single game to inspire the most rage in me has historically be Mario Kart because of the "screwed at the finish line" and cheating way the game operates. More controllers were broken because of Mario Kart than anything else. Actual violent games have no effect on me. Cheating, however, does.
There's also this interesting article from a disturbed fellow over at Kotaku: http://kotaku.com/violent-video-games-help-me-get-beyond-my-violent-past-1678978763
While I understand the concern, I don't agree with it. Restricting them adds a "forbidden fruit" aspect to them that will make them want to play it even more. And they WILL find a way; playing a game owned by an older sibling/parent, for example, or if that fails, they'll turn to illegal downloads.
And the teacher is SERIOUSLY overreacting. Police and social services, which can and will ruin your life even if you're innocent if they get called on you, is way too disproportionate of a retribution for not having the same views on censorship as you.
@Quorthon
Thank you. That was awesome!
I haven't read all of the comments on this because there are so many. I apologise if I'm repeating others.
I feel the best way to address the issue of children playing inappropriate games could be achieved in two ways.
1 change legislation making it illegal to sell a video game rated for adults to a parent if suspected it is for a child. I know that this is not fool proof. Publishers and retailer's not be allowed to advertise adult games in childrens media and sell related mercandise In toy shops etc. I have seen terminator and halo toys in toys r us. Games for adults could be shelved in shops in an adult only section. Thi s will give unaware people buying games for children a clear guide to whats not appropriate.
2 buying games via the Internet. This is harder to regulate and relies on parent responsibility. My son likes lego and wanted to join the lego club online. To do this I had to give my email address and lego then contacted me directly to ensure that I was who I said I Was and give permission for my son to use the site and gave me lots of info on parental settings to keep children safe on the internet. Lots more companies should do this.
I think that the police and crown prosecution service should take offenders to court and the consequences be high to deter offences in the first place. How this is done I havent the legal background to say however the safety of children from material designed for adults should be paramount.
This is not an anti freedom of speach issue or that when i was a kid i saw adult things and it didnt hurt me. we have childrens categorys and adult categories for a reason and its not just a moral one. check out information on child and adult development and understanding .
Finally children shoud be allowed to be children theres plenty of time to be spent in the adult world later.
Thanks
Where does this madness end?
For instance, I'm playing through Final Fantasy XIII-2 on my PS3 at the moment. The game is rated 16+
It's barely violent at all (asides from firing spells at monsters), features no blood or gore, nothing in the way of sexuality or nudity...if my 10 year old nephew sees me playing it, should I be expecting a knock on my door from the police?
Sheesh.....
lol as always, these kind of topics always leads to lengthy discussions.
I almost finished my popcorn reading them all :>
Guys guys. If you want me to accept this, give me proof that its harmful. Saying something is harmful doesn't make it harmful. And TAKING AWAY the parents?? If an 8 year old loses their parents because he played an 18 rated game, how would THAT effect be like? I bet it would be worse. But since I don't know it myself, I can't judge it. I want studies which show that playing games at a too young age is bad.
"Why did your mum lose the allowance to raise you?"
" 'Cause she bought me GTA V when I was 9"
"Was she actually bad?"
"No. She spent much time with me even though she works full time and seemed to love me more than anyone. And how is your mum?"
"Well, she drinks, smokes all day, is lazy and doesn't do that much besides work, but she buys me normal toys so she is allowed to raise me."
@Quorthon Seeing as how I never said video games make people violent, I'll wait for you to reread my post and do your own research on how restrcited material can harm the development of a child without necessarily making them violent. Some children can become more accepting of violence (to themselves and/or others), some children have absolutely no negative effects whatsoever, other kids become more worried about violence and various other effects that are similar to those suffered by victims of physical abuse.
There's a reason why it's illegal to give restricted material to a minor, so unless you want to believe in a gignatic conspiracy amongst health professionals, social workers, police and various governments around the world, maybe you should accept their word that restricted adult only material can be harmful to minors.
Or maybe you think we should also allow predators to groom kids with restricted material?
@geheimxy No parent will have their child taken away because of this, any adult would receive a warning or fine for a first offense (assuming that it wasn't part of grooming a child for abuse).
@MadAdam81 Alright then I got it wrong. I am sorry for that. But still I've read that if they do it a second or a third time, the parent will have their child taken away. This is not something I approve. I think a parent should have their own freedom to how to raise their kids (.at least if they don't abuse them) An informational letter where the parents get to know which games will com out in the next months which are probably bad for the kid is enough because in the end the parents should have the last words and the right to how they should raise their kids (at least if they don't abuse them).
And also, I still won't accept this before I have seen decent studies on what "bad effect" 18+ games have. Even though I am thinking that they probably have a bad effect, I want to see proof.
@geheimxy That would be crazy to remove a child from a home for that, as in many cases removing a child from their home would be just as bad.
There would need to be quite a few steps to be taken before forcibly removing a child from a home, including attending an education session so they understand what it can do to a child, and a full investigation into a child, their family and other activities to make sure there is no abuse happening anywhere, a fine, even having their games, or mayeb even console or PC be taken away (or locked to prevent restricted games from being played) before taking a child out of a home.
As for proof, I don't know how scientific these are, but theres
http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/02/how-playing-violent-video-games-may-change-the-brain/
http://ithp.org/articles/violentvideogames.html
However, I think in most mature people, games, movies, books, magazines etc with high violent content or sexual content will not affect their brains, personality or way of thinking.
In children who are not mature enough (whether pre-teen or a teen who is easily led, or even grown adults who are easily led), there are changes.
I have read somewhere that kids who are exposed to violent media are similar to kids who live in war zones and kids who live in a violent home.
Some kids end up stronger as a result of violence (make sure it doesn't happen to anybody else), others end up struggling to understand what is acceptable and what is not, especially when it happens regularly (which is why mature media can be used by predators to groom children, by trying to convince a child that something like that is normal). That is why if a child has parental supervision with mature media as well as moral discussions and things like that, they will be less affected by things like this - they will be more grounded and less changed. It doesn't mean games with violence or sexual themes will make children more violent or sexual, but it can alter what they think is normal if they don't have a strong grounding.
I know this is an old post but with the rise of digital gaming, parents don't have as much control over their kids gaming as the head teachers would like to think when you factor in point cards that don't require age verification. This problem is maximised on portable gaming consoles like 3DS/Vista where young players can easily hide the device/gaming content from their parents. So criminalizing those parents that are earnest in their goal and love their kids but struggle to control the kind of content that they can access will set up a slippery slope for the future.
(I know that a lot of people will just argue back "parental controls" but I think Nintendo is the only game console producer that actually cares about their family-friendly image and therefore heavily advertises their kid-friendly games and parental control settings even though that the other popular gaming consoles do have them. Heck the DS range, including the 3DS lineup, definitely has no more then 30 18 rated games that were released worldwide. And even GTA: CW was toned down in terms of violence and sex due to the hardware therefore making its 18 rating debatable)
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