Topic: NINTENDO is alienating its hardcore audience

Casual, to me, does not mean family/party games being played by soccer moms and retirement home occupants, rather it means people who don’t have hours on end to devote to gaming. In the same way “hardcore” doesn’t mean that every game has to be rated “M” for Mature and be filled with profanity, severed limbs, and suggestive themes – it’s a term referenced to people who like a challenge, and don’t want the game to be helped along with answers to every puzzle given by a NPC.

------theres your definition

Seriously, what is it you're arguing about, you're twisting this up too much, you go on about how you don't want to play kiddy games, then change your definition, then go back again.

Like I put up, look at the list I put up, and try them out, I don't care if they don't appeal to you, you should be more open. Infact if you do own a 360, do me a BIG........... favour. Download the demo for Beautiful Katamari and play the level given to you until you beat it. If you say you don't like it, something is really wrong with you...

Sooooo, basically you mean hard games? Hmmm.... let's go through a timelapse of Ninty games:

1) Super Mario Bros 1-3 1980's-1990's, NES - Was a very hard trilogy. But then again, most all NES games were hard back then.
2) Kid Icarus, Metroid, 1990's, NES - Ridiculously hard.
3) Super Mario World 1-2, 1990's, SNES - Again, they were quite hard. Nearly 20 years old.
4) Super Metroid - I don't need to tell you how hard it is.

Those are the most well known games from the 80's and 90's. Enter the N64/GCN era:

1) Super Mario 64 - Not exactly hard, but challenging.
2) Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Like SM64 - challenging, not hard
3) Pikim 1-2 - Medium difficulty.
4) Super Mario Sunshine - Not hard nor easy. About medium difficulty.
5) Zelda: Twilight Princess - Hmmm, quite a bit easier than previous installments.
6) Super Mario Galaxy - Oooo, we're getting easier. Not a pushover though, and loads of fun.
7) Metroid Prime 1-3 - Occasionally difficult.

Hmm, I see a lot of variety, but a gradual difficulty relax since the N64 era. None of the games made by Nintendo in the past decade have been really and truly hard. Solution: Spend your next $50 (or whatever) on 10 Ninty NES games from the VC. Nowadays, people in general don't want to be frustrated by incredible difficulty. Do you think Mario Galaxy, Zelda TP, and Prime 3 would sell well if they were as difficult as Kid Icarus or Metroid 1? Ninty is doing a smart biz strategy. They're still providing excellent games, while enabling the casual crowd to play and complete them.

I can understand you wanting some more difficult games, which is why you should checkout some of the classics. However, I'm all for Nintendo adding difficulty options to future games.

Difficulty relax noway @pixelman try collecting everything in; Sunshine, ocarina, galaxy, prime, and so forth now that is hard shit...

100%ing Sunshine? Difficult!
Ocarina? Time consuming but not that demanding
Galaxy? Aside from a small number of certain stars not particularly challenging
Prime? Relatively difficult without a guide

Collection quests are tiresome, though. It takes a special kind of fan to want to complete these. When I think of difficulty in a game, I think of the difficulty of a single play through as the best measurement since that's all you should expect of the average player. I don't think Nintendo has made a challenging game since the NES, barring a few exceptions like the most recent Fire Emblem.

I hate this whole "hardcore vs. casual" debate. These terms were hardly ever used until Nintendo released the DS and Wii, now it's being thrown around all over the place. These days, anything that isn't a crossword puzzle-sim, a minigame collection, or a glorified tech demo is considered "hardcore". It's ridiculous! IMO, casual games are games that are accessible to the average person, while hardcore games are the uber-difficult games only for gamers with mad skillz, such as Ninja Gaiden. In that respect, Nintendo IS abandoning the hardcore.

Nintendo never cared about the hardcore anyway. Save for a few games, such as Kid Icarus and the original Zelda, Nintendo has always aimed to make their games accessible and enjoyable to everyone. This trend definitely isn't going to change anytime soon. They haven't forgotten their fanbase though, which is why they still make Zeldas and Marios and release games like Punch-Out!! With that, and games like S&P2 Muramasa, and Madworld, the Wii is doing pretty well for itself right now IMO.

You apparently don't remember FZero GX. That game is so bleeping hard that I just ended up putting it down. The unlock system also annoyed me to no end. I was so happy to beat the Captain Falcon training after literally hours of trying. I was like, "Yay! Now I get to play the real game in story mode!" Then the game spat back, "After you complete the training course on HARD!"

My reaction: "WTF? Screw this, I'm outta here. Maybe the VC will get FZero X..."

Well, I said a "few exceptions" and just listed one. I actually don't remember that one, but the F-Zero series has had a pretty consistent level of challenge in the few of them I've played long enough to remember (I still can't beat either F-Zero on VC). I forgot why I didn't like the Gamecube version, well, except for the whole concept of a story mode... F-Zero and "Story Mode" don't click. It seems to get a fair amount of praise, though. Oh well.

I meant difficulty as in finishing the game - not 100%. Mario Sunshine is much easier than the classics, such as Kid Icarus, Metroid, etc.

Oh yes, and Punch Out is incredibly hard. Point is, you won't find many truly satisfyingly hard games past the NES/SNES era.

I think the Wii could do well with some blockbuster racers that feature online. F-Zero online, a game similar to forza would be nice too. Man if they could get the Wii wheel to be super precise and THE choice for hard core racers they could make a ton of cash.

Play either f-zero on the 64 or gamecube on the hardest difficulty and don't use some cheap tactic like snaking. You'll find a nice challenge.

I said "many", not "any".

Is the GBA F-Zero basically the SNES version?

I managed to unlock every vehicle except one which frustrated me so much I haven't played it since.

I played GX round a friend's house and gave up almost before I began.

Maximum Velocity (GBA) was very similar to the original in graphics and game play, but it is a new game with new tracks. The original didn't have unlockable racers that I know of.

You think Punch-Out, a very fun game yet also a simple matter of pattern memorization, is 'incredibly hard'... Yet you also think today's games are too easy?

OBJECTION! Your honor, this testimony contradicts itself!

Not to mention Mario 3 isn't honestly that hard till the last couple worlds, and Super Metroid is a pretty easy affair aside from one or two spikes in difficulty (I know this because I actually just got done playing it for the first time).

My definition of "casual game" is the Brain Training, fitness games, which seems to make up the majority of the "shovelware" these days. I have no problem with casual games if they are properly done. The problem is that the vast majority isn't, and large amounts of that majority is blatant shovelware.

My real moan at Nintendo is that they're slacking and letting others do the hard work. Hell, even Brawl was out-sourced (to Sora).

I don't really care for these definitions about casual / hardcore. If we really, really need to use something to define guy who plays more than 3 hours per week, I would go with "gaming enthusiasts". At least it is clear and describes exactly what kind player we are talking about.

I mean, if we go by its actual definition, "hardcore" means uncompromising. Could someone tell me then what the hell turns something like Halo 3 into hardcore? It is mass marketed, has been severely compromised to please the target audience, and has sold 10 million copies or so. There is nothing daring or obscure about it neither. What is exactly "hardcore" here? If we use stupid food analogies, Halo 3 is same as McDonalds. Easy digestable stuff for mass market.

Mod Edit: You can get your point across without using offensive language.

But it is clear that internal teams are doing something as Nintendo won't pay them for fiddling their thumbs. And outsourcing is necessary evil if you want to keep current pace. I mean, so far Nintendo has announced / developed / published 59 games for Wii. Small number? To put it into perspective, it is more than N64 or SNES ever saw 1st / 2nd party games during their lifespan. And the Wii has been only out for two and half years.

Yes, Punch Out is incredibly hard for the casual gamer. (I myself am having trouble beating Bald Bull ) I never said I thought games of today are too easy - I said there has been a general relax in difficulty since the days of the NES/SNES. I love good ol' hard games