Now, I have to take issue here. You talk about not providing evidence and being allergic to statistics, without providing either. To be fair, I do recall some of the coverage you mention, but I find it hard to believe that roughly 10 sites provided no evidence to support claims on either side for two years running. I also don't think the simple number of women in games compared to the number of men in games is at the heart of the issue.
Lol, yes but I only said because I'd checked the sources and was willing to back it up if you wanted (and if I was writing for an actual site, I'd never make a single claim that I couldn't back up with evidence).
Actual data (I'd love to credit whoever did the insane work of making these but I don't know who it was, just saw them being thrown around on twitter):
I think this also answers your later question about why some people seem to push back on this so called "progressivism". It's because it's very often incredibly dishonest and seems to be far less about representing reality and much more about wanting to show you're the person who stands up for the right things.
How did I know this would turn into a gender argument the minute Linkle was revealed for the game? Oh, maybe because these silly debates have been going on for months now and people still haven't moved on.
But honestly, I'm fine with Linkle as a character. It's a new character with a new set of abilities and a potentially new personality. That's much better than trying to change Link into a female character to please a bunch of whiny college kids.
Back to the topic of Hyrule Warriors itself... when do you think we'll get some new Zelda characters as playable? We've now got Link's distaff counterpart, but I want some existing Zelda characters made playable, like how Toon Link, Tetra, the King of Hyrule and Skull Kid were.
Alright, @Dezzy, my friend, I'm wrapping this up on my end. Folks are getting annoyed at this debate, and rightfully so — it's a horse that's been beaten, resurrected, and beaten again, and it's straying ever further from the topic of ol' Linkle.
Honestly, you've lost me anyway; I just have no idea what point you're making here. You said a bunch of websites posted their viewpoints on the issue with no evidence — I said that was doubtful, so you linked me to a bunch of websites on either side of the debate that all provide evidence of their viewpoints. Each of those articles states an opinion and then provides examples to justify the opinion. Then you link me to a Kill Screen article this is, yes, pretty reactionary and pretty torpid.
So to summarize, I originally posted that I thought Linkle was a nice example of the socially progressive baby steps Nintendo is taking, I think that's nice, and I think it struck a chord given the current climate on the issue of women in media. I still don't know what you're getting at, though. That the whole issue is made up? That it's not worth talking about because some advocates post rubbish articles? That it's not an issue anymore? That Kill Screen is pretentious? That there aren't many old ladies in games? It's all over the map.
Near as I can figure, you think the issue is a falsely generated "witch hunt." In any case, that's the vibe I'm getting. And I think that's absolutely silly. With respect, I'll leave it at that.
Anyway, onto Hyrule Warriors. So we know that Skull Kid will make the journey from 3DS to Wii U, but do we have any more info on characters making it to the Wii U version without buying the 3DS game? I love the game, but I have no desire to play a 3DS version when I can play it on my Wii U. I do have very much desire to play as all the new characters, though. Hopefully, Nintendo and Koei will continue taking my sweetassed DLC money.
Honestly, you've lost me anyway; I just have no idea what point you're making here. You said a bunch of websites posted their viewpoints on the issue with no evidence — I said that was doubtful, so you linked me to a bunch of websites on either side of the debate that all provide evidence of their viewpoints. Each of those articles states an opinion and then provides examples to justify the opinion. Then you link me to a Kill Screen article this is, yes, pretty reactionary and pretty torpid.
So to summarize, I originally posted that I thought Linkle was a nice example of the socially progressive baby steps Nintendo is taking, I think that's nice, and I think it struck a chord given the current climate on the issue of women in media. I still don't know what you're getting at, though. That the whole issue is made up? That it's not worth talking about because some advocates post rubbish articles? That it's not an issue anymore? That Kill Screen is pretentious? That there aren't many old ladies in games? It's all over the map.
Well they didn't provide evidence though did they? I started the discussion by pointing out that MOST of the talk of these kinds of issues follows a very simple formula 1) decide a conclusion. 2) cherry pick the examples that fit that conclusion. 3) ignore anything else. The thing about this method is that you can use it support absolutely anything (including completely opposite points of view) provided you have a large sample size of fairly varied examples (there are about 1000 games made a year).
I did go out of my way to provide the ACTUAL evidence, which showed their conclusions were almost entirely fictional (there was only a 3% change in female characters). But you didn't seem to even mention it.
I don't think the issue of "women in the media" is entirely made up. I gave that one example where I think there's a real problem (I could give a few other genuine ones too, like the fact that female characters generally have a narrower range of body types than male). All I was saying is that A LOT of the noise on this issue comes from blind ideology rather than genuine response to facts.
I also don't think including a female Link is at all "progressive": If you look at that data I posted about E3 games, another thing you'll notice is that there are actually twice as many games where you can either choose the character's sex (or you play as both) as there are games with a male protagonist (and then female protagonist being the smallest category). Given that I actually massively prefer third-person narratives (i.e where the character is NOT supposed to represent you), I don't consider there to be anything progressive about creating even fewer games with a set protagonist. If you want a female playable character in a Zelda game, I think the "progressive" thing would be to make use of Zelda instead (I'd earlier suggested in another thread that a kind of Last of Us type deal where Link and Zelda take turns would be quite good). That way you keep people happy who want to play as a girl without having to sacrifice set and established characters.
I'm oddly disturbed with the Link x Linkle ship fanart. Don't be too specific.-Morpheel
People are shipping Link and Linkle. Don't they realize that Linkle is just Link with a sex change?
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Edit, anyway why do people keep saying that, the direct made it very clear that Linkle is an entirely separate person who just happens to have a ridiculous name.
@arronishere: Nope, the reason Linkle isn't present is because there hasn't been a trailer for her yet in the same style as the Tetra, King of Red Lions and Toon Link ones. As for the extra story content, I doubt it, the HD footage of the Linkle cutscene in the Direct has got to be somewhere in the game and the New 3DS doesn't have HD graphics so by that logic it'll be in the Wii U version. The question becomes how rather than will it. For example it could be update and another season pass or update and redeeming the code that comes with the 3DS version unlocks it.
@AlternateButtons: well maybe they wanted to make it available to the millions of 3ds owners who wont or cant buy a wiiu while adding improvements for the owners who loved enough to buy it twice so they can play it on the go.
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