Forums

Topic: Will there be a Nintendo switch PRO?

Posts 61 to 80 of 82

skywake

@GrailUK
Or an alternative spin on this take. What if there legitimately isn't a gimmick to be had that couldn't just be an accessory? Or at least not one that changes core franchises in the way that 3D, Colour, Optical Media, Motion, touch screens, Dual Screens, 3D or a Hybrid console does.

Miyamoto famously said during the tail end of the Wii era that Nintendo won't start the new console generation unless it would add something new to gameplay. And that better graphics wasn't a reason. So what if they don't have anything new to add other than better graphics? Is that a reason to start a new console generation? And if it isn't.... maybe you don't start a new generation. You make a revision!

As a side note, we like to pretend that Nintendo comes up with wacky ideas nobody would've thought of. That's not entirely accurate in my mind. Most of the gimmick they have had were simmering away in the background before they jumped onto it. PDAs existed before the DS, 3D existed before the 3DS, remote play existed before Wii U, Nvidia has literally been pushing Tegra based portables with HDMI out since 2013.

So what new and cheap tech is there on the market relating to either user input or AV output? Plenty. But not much that isn't tied to either moving from HDMI 1.4 or adding Tensor cores. I mean you mention holograms which is a new and emerging tech so it fits the bill there. But how do you drive a holographic display? Think about it. 1080p is 2MP, 4K is 8MP, 8K is 33MP right? Well 50 angles at 720P is 46MP..... so.... you've invented a new version of a 3DS that allows.... two people to watch it and requires.... a $2000 GPU to drive at 720p..... congrats? I guess?

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

GrailUK

@skywake They are great at adapting technology towards gaming if not necessarily inventing it per se. Maybe a revision then. But I dunno. MS and SONY seem to have a set idea on what gaming is and focus a lot on how to sell it. Nintendo still have that thirst for new ideas. Sounds fanboyish I know, but heck, I guess their philosophy is why I am a fanboy haha. We'll see. But I will always lean towards them having a new idea somewhere (that may either mnake everyone ask 'wth?' or 'why hasn't anyone done this before?'

I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.

Switch FC: SW-0287-5760-4611

Bolt_Strike

@skywake I think the most apt comparison would be something like a DS -> 3DS transition (again, with a short cross gen period like PS3 -> PS4/Xbox 360 -> Xbox One and now PS4 -> PS5/Xbox One -> Xbox Series X). Similar form factor, but with higher specs and some new gimmick layered on top. It probably won't just be DLSS. They have mentioned wanting to refine motion controls (I can't find the PR statement where they said that), but in general they're not going to tip their hand on what they're doing. I know what I'd like them to do, and that's a dual screen clamshell hybrid with detachable screens (the purpose of that being so that they can have the dual screens of the DS, 3DS, and Wii U in both handheld and docked, and with the added bonus of allowing each player to have both a Joycon and a separate screen in two player), but I'm not sure the technology is there yet for that to work well.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

skywake

@Bolt_Strike
Motion control is definitely a space they could improve but I'm sceptical. The way to improve it would be via a camera and light system of some kind. Think Kinect, most VR even the Wii IR camera.

But I feel the public had lost its appetite for wired accessories. Better or not the idea of a camera doing some motion tracking is seen as dated. In the same way that WiFi is seen as better than Wired.

And besides, this is an accessory we're talking about here....

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Bolt_Strike

@skywake Bad example, as Wired can be better than WiFi in certain circumstances. Wired internet can be faster and more reliable than WiFi so for stationary devices, it might be better to go Wired.

I don't think a camera will do too much to solve the problem with motion controls. The main complaint with motion controls has been the inaccuracy/imprecision of recorded motions, which seems to be caused by latency, and both camera based motion controls and gyroscope based motion controls have equally suffered the same issue. If Nintendo is really intent on making motion controls relevant enough, what they need is Joycons with faster processing. I'm not sure they could do so without making them prohibitively expensive, so maybe the interview I saw was just BS (I can't seem to find the PR statement where they mentioned it, which isn't a good sign).

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

skywake

@Bolt_Strike
The WiFi/Wired example was good you just misread me. Wired is fantastic but people perceive it as "old tech" so you get laptop manufacturers dropping Ethernet to make themselves look "more modern". Modern would be 2.5Gbps+ Ethernet, not no ports

As for using cameras for motion well cameras are high latency but they allow tracking in 3D space. Gyros are fast but they have no awareness of 3D space, just the rotation. Accelerometers are fast but they are useless in motion (except to show there's motion) and have no concept of rotation except in relation to the ground.

If you want decent motion tracking want all three. But cameras are clunky and don't look modern so.... we get gyro and accelerometers

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

skywake

Wavey84 wrote:

Except we wont be getting adaptive triggers with a Switch Pro controller revision or Haptic Feedback level rumble as there won't be a Pro controller revision period.

People are into precedents for some reason so lets cite some precedents for controller upgrades. Dual Shock, Wii Motion Plus, the 3.5mm jack on the XBox Controller, The XBox Elite Controller, Wavebird, N64 Rumble Pak, Master System "Control Stick", Six button Mega Drive controller..... and that's before we consider novelty controllers like the SNES Mouse, Wii Balance Board, Playstation Move, Kinect. Controller revisions are common.

I mean pure hypothetical here but lets imagine a world where Microsoft wants to release more games on the Switch. Not the craziest idea out there, it has been suggested before and there are Microsoft games on the Switch. Lets say they wanted to put a Forza game on Switch but on the condition that Nintendo release a controllers with Analogue triggers. How many seconds do you think it would be before analogue triggers suddenly appeared? (This is basically how the Classic Controller Pro happened, ironically dropping analogue triggers)

Wavey84 wrote:

Also, 1080p might make a difference on lets say an 8 inch display but it all depends on how close your eyes are to the screen.

At 8" you have to be 30cm away to see the pixels at 1080p. That's pretty damn close. Also anecdotally I have a 13" laptop that's 1080p, that's plenty of resolution at that size for a laptop. This site calculates the "retina" distance for that is 51cm which is probably around the distance I'd hold my Switch comfortably. A 13" portable.... would be way too big.... 720p is fine
https://www.designcompaniesranked.com/resources/is-this-retina/

Wavey84 wrote:

And yeesh, that would be pretty disappointing if their next gen console fails to hit PS4 Pro level graphics..

Comparisons between architectures are completely funky so take this with a bucket of salt. But the PS4 Pro is around 4000GFLOPS, the Switch sits at 400GFLOPS docked. If they unlocked the clock they could get as far as 650GFLOPS on the Switch

Now Tegra has released new SoCs since the Switch, some more power hungry and others less so. Their most capable that is available sits at around 1400GFLOPS. But the assumption is that they'll go with a newer Tegra SoC. Looking in the gap between those micro-architectures? Maybe you get 2X there (pure speculation). So 3000GFLOPS, very optimistically. That's still short of the PS4 Pro

So yeah, they're not going to overtake the PS4 Pro, not any time soon if they want to maintain this hybrid form factor. But with DLSS they might approach that spec in terms of real world perceived performance

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Bolt_Strike

@Wavey84 And how exactly is 4K innovative? How is copying the same specs as its competition and catching up "pushing the industry forward"? The higher spec games aren't really innovative for the most part (PS5's SSD allowing for faster load times is a game changer, but that's about it and that's not directly related to typical performance metrics the industry pays attention to such as resolution or frame rate), they just look prettier. Comparable specs are important for third party support because it makes it easier for them to port their games, but that's not exactly innovation. If anything, Nintendo going off in their own direction is better for innovation since going against the grain allows them to make more games that are new and original.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

@Wavey84 "Looking nicer" isn't really the same thing as innovating but you seem to be equating the two. At this point I think graphical improvements have mostly if not fully reached the limit in terms of what they can do to actually, fundamentally change how video games work and play, all you're really doing is making something that's prettier to look at but otherwise is the exact same (and even then, due to diminishing returns from increased performance, it's not even that much prettier).

At this point I think anyone that's interested in actual "innovation" needs to find other avenues for progressing the industry, and that's what Nintendo is attempting. Areas such as controls that expand the range of actions that are possible in a video game (and no, VR doesn't seem to have improved this either as it's mainly just holding up a screen to your eyes, the industry is largely resisting the sort of motion controls that would make VR an actual, worthwhile innovation), AI which makes in game characters increasingly lifelike and adaptable would be much better, or infrastructure and services that expand when, where, and how you can interact with your games would offer much more tangible improvement than just increasing a slider on the resolution and framerate.

I agree that the Switch isn't the most innovative device out there, it's more revolutionary in terms of being the culmination of just about every playstyle in the industry and wrapping it up into one neat little package. But it's still more than what the likes of Microsoft and Sony do to actually innovate. They don't seem to really care about innovation for the most part, they just want to create the illusion that their consoles are the next evolution in gaming with higher specs that are flashy and attention grabbing while in really they just want to make the games the same way every time (maybe even find ways to be even lazier with their games in some ways). So I don't get this crying about "Nintendo should innovate like Microsoft and Sony". If you want them to be more like Microsoft and Sony to get more of the games that end up skipping Nintendo's consoles, that's understandable, but that's not actual innovation. If anything, Nintendo is the one trying to innovate and the rest of the industry is resisting the kind of change they're trying to introduce.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Pokester99

absolutely. It should come out a year or two before whatever next console Nintendo is working on.

Pokester99

SwitchForce

Considering now we see the DOCK has options to do output 4K/DLSS from the Switch in future designs that means a Pro or neXtGen Switch is coming sooner then later from the YT teardown as first shown.

SwitchForce

Matt_Barber

On the other hand, it might just be that HDMI 1.4 is practically obsolete these days, so getting a more modern HDMI 2.0 chip - with support for 4K output for free - works out cheaper.

Getting 4K output from the Switch was never the real problem. The Nvidia Shield TV already did it in 2015 with much the same hardware. Rather, it's all about whether you could get enough rendering power into a low power package and, even with 7nm technology, that still looks like a very tough proposition.

Matt_Barber

SwitchForce

Matt_Barber wrote:

Rather, it's all about whether you could get enough rendering power into a low power package and, even with 7nm technology, that still looks like a very tough proposition.

LOL
What April fools? Low power - love how people try to diss the Switch every chance they get and the Switch keeps doing the unexpected. When Docked it doesn't really require power restrictions.

SwitchForce

LEGEND_MARIOID

There won't be a pro IMO. It'll be the next gen Switch out next. Probably like Switch Advance or something like that. I am fine with that personally

Edited on by LEGEND_MARIOID

"They say video games are bad for you? That's what they said about rock n' roll."

Matt_Barber

SwitchForce wrote:

LOL
What April fools? Low power - love how people try to diss the Switch every chance they get and the Switch keeps doing the unexpected. When Docked it doesn't really require power restrictions.

I'm not sure why you think that's a diss. Low power is a big plus for a handheld device like the Switch.

And sure, the Switch can draw more power when docked but it's still limited by what the cooling system can handle. All the 4K capable consoles so far have been pretty bulky, because they've needed large cooling systems. Technology has moved on somewhat from the PS4 Pro to the extent that the Series S can more or less match it on half the power draw, but that's still 75W which is way above anything you'd contemplate putting in a handheld device.

Personally, I'd like Nintendo to make a purely home version of the Switch as a complement to the Lite, and that could totally be a 4K-capable machine without needing to make any of the compromises necessary in a hybrid/handheld device. However, after the failure of the Wii U, I can see why they wouldn't want to go down that route.

Matt_Barber

SwitchForce

@Matt_Barber we all know when people use terms low power for Switch it's not a complement or when it's called Mobile console. Nintendo already found a working formula and it's not coffee table console. People gamers want options and the Switch provides the product they are looking for-why else would they be enjoying the success they are having. The only reason to have updated chipsets is tech moves on and gives better chances that a more powerful 4k/DLSS Switch emerges to give old/new Switch games better gameplay and for those looking to pay more for that change to choose to do so. And, I for one think it will outpace all Switch sales should it become reality.

Edited on by SwitchForce

SwitchForce

Matt_Barber

Yeah, they'll make an updated Switch at some point. I just wouldn't be waiting up for it and would bear in mind that they're as much constrained by the laws of physics as everyone else.

So, when nobody else can make a 4K- capable console that weighs under 1.9kg and draws less than 70W from the wall, it's no diss to say that they probably can't either.

Matt_Barber

SwitchForce

Notice when anyone mentions 4k/DLSS options they seems to conveniently leave out the DLSS is what can make more clear. But we all know why people keep cherry picking here. Nintendo already was seen talking about AI resolution aka DLSS to improve performance without going full bore 4K only system. It's already a diss when leaving other information that is coming out regardless of what one wants to think.

SwitchForce

Matt_Barber

@SwitchForce Seriously, this is all going on in your head.

I've mentioned DLSS multiple times on this forum including the possibility that Nintendo might use it to bridge the gap between the amount of processing power they can get into the next Switch model and what's required to deliver 4K visuals.

I just think it's more likely to be something that'd go into a Switch successor rather than a mid-generation refresh, as it's still something of a work in progress on Nvidia's part. DLSS has already been through almost as many software revisions as there are games that use it and they're still a very mixed bag in terms of how effectively it can be used. Plus, you're currently only getting it if you've got a PC with a fairly power hungry GPU anyway.

Sure, it's a possibility. It's just not a magic bullet.

Matt_Barber

Top

Please login or sign up to reply to this topic