Topic: What do you think of the anti-piracy DRM, Denuvo coming to switch?

So I found a read this news article: https://www.ign.com/articles/anti-piracy-software-denuvo-anno...

and that got me thinking... 🤔💭

based on a lot of things I've read on the internet, and some people I've talked to before, Denuvo is practically useless, and it also causes FPS drop on PC's, and since the switch is a handheld, it could probably suffer more performance-wise compared to PCs....

and also, a majority of public opinion says that denuvo DRM basically does not stop piracy at all, it probably slows it down just for a few days, then the crack is out.

some people I've talked to also says that even if they've bought a game on steam for example, and it has DRM, the still download the crack for it, just to get rid of the headaches it causes.

so basically, it doesn't stop piracy, and makes playing games more annoying by introducing performance issues.

what do you guys think about this?

also here's an informational article if you don't know what Denuvo DRM is: 👇
🔻 What Is Denuvo, and Why Do Gamers Hate It?

Denuvo DRM is best known for its negative impact on software performance when used. Usually DRM-crackers race each other for who can first crack games that use Denuvo, which is usually open within a few hours after a game's release. Denuvo are basically selling snake oil for developers because the product doesn't deliver the protection it supposedly offers. Their product does little beyond jeopardizing game preservation and annoying gamers who pay for their games.

This

There was - and probably still is - highly intrusive anti-piracy software/hardware in the DAW world.

Some would require an internet connection (why would you have your audio workstation connected to the net at all times?); others would generate a key from your hardware combination, meaning that if you upgraded then that software would be locked out; yet others required a usb dongle that slowed the machine down - great when recording audio.

Software piracy is awful, but measures need to be user-friendly and transparent

Personal experience, I have Sonic Mania on PC, bought it before I ever had a Switch during that period when I had my Wii U as my main console, but didn't have a Switch yet. It came with Denuvo, and one day I wanted to play the game while offline (Internet was down), and I couldn't because the game needed to "phone home" to Denuvo's servers. Since then, I hated the DRM. It did nothing to stop pirates, and it only punished a paying customer. Thankfully, Sega removed Denuvo, so it's no longer on the PC version of Sonic Mania.

To be fair, Switch digital games have DRM, you can't take the SD card from one system and put it into another and expect to play your games, same with Wii U, 3DS, DSi, and Wii. So adding Denuvo would just put DRM on top of DRM onto Switch games. Keep in mind, I don't know how Denuvo would work on Switch.

Also, it's important that people know about DRM, and why DRM-free is best for digital games. I'm glad this topic exists as more who might not be familiar with DRM can learn about it and why it's bad for gaming.

I think it's gonna cause more problems with the Switch. Games will probably struggle, because of how demanding Denuvo is on the hardware. OLED and potentially later versions might not struggle as bad as some of the older systems will though. Might even cause more overheating issues with a lot those as well.

But, that's just my thoughts. We'll see how it all plays out, when they unfortunately move forward with this needlessness.

Anyone who puts Denuvo on their games in 2022 is an idiot or is willing to ruin their game in order to trick really stupid shareholders into thinking they're doing something about piracy. Possibly both.

DRM haters already know this from beginning of time. DRM - Does no one any services. Just example remember the Sony anti-security for Music CDs which in itself became a security loopholes for hackers to access peoples computers. And some just used a Black permanent markers on the outer edge that basically disabled that feature when people aka hackers found out and released how to defeat it. That was Major BlackEye for Sony and they never lived that down.

SD card only has the Digital games download and updates all that saved game data is on the internal memory storage. Your comment is all over the map here. You can take a Physical Cart and play on another Switch and if you have another Switch with your Account on it you can download and play your Digital games. SD carts can't be use in another because it was formatted for that Switch - that isn't DRM.

We have to be clear DRM benefits only the company making it not the Publisher/Developers they get a BlackEye from this and consider we have 24/7 internet news this isn't something you want to advertise that you the Gaming Software company is using this is going to get major Gamers BoyCott. Maybe back in the starting internet days they could get away doing this under the radar but now News like this is instant and you get raw unfiltered feedbacks and rightfully so. As we seen them do Damage PR control lately.

The unfortunate reality is that, even though Denuvo invariably gets hacked out of games, it has been successful enough at slowing down hackers that publishers are still tempted to use it; unlike us, they get to see the sales figures and the bottom line. Unless boycotting has a greater effect in terms of lost sales - and I'm on board but good luck with that - it's probably not going away.

Also, even when games are cracked there are usually mandatory updates issued as requirements for DLC, or just to play the games with the bugs fixed, and those versions often aren't cracked at all.

Even with all that in mind though, there would still seem little point to persisting with it in games for more than a month after the initial release, or at least of the final DLC, because by that point few sales are being lost and its impact is entirely negative.

A commitment to patching it out at that stage could result in substantial sales to people who'd been boycotting the game, and they get to have the best of both worlds. I'd obviously prefer them not to use it at all, but waiting a bit longer isn't that much of a problem especially if the patch that removes it coincides with a Steam sale.

Except, you just proved it is DRM. The simple fact that an SD card formatted on one Switch can't be used on another is another form of DRM.

If you have a digital game on an SD card, you can't take that SD card and use it on another Switch. It's a restriction that's intentionally there by Nintendo for a reason. Also, requiring a Nintendo Account to download and play a game is also a form of DRM on digital Switch games.

Ideally if a game is DRM-free, then restrictions like this would not be in place. You can play your digital games without log-ins, or by moving the SD card from one Switch to another without having to redownload games.

I'd also note the online check when you play a downloaded game on a Switch that's not the home one for your account. That's yet another form of DRM on the platform.

That said, Nintendo's DRM is all relatively easy to bypass now for people using hacked Switches and emulators, and I suspect that's why Denuvo are sensing that there's a gap in the market.

About the only truly DRM free games you get are from PC platforms like Humble Bundle and GOG. I'm happy to support them both where they can do this, but I can understand why publishers aren't keen.

You clearly shown by the reply that you don't know the difference what DRM does and what format is.

Again someone whom clearly has other issue unrelated Nintendo.

Again this is related to formatting nothing related to DRM. I think you need to re-read up on DRM and how it destroys system performances and not what you think it does.

Thinking about it, I'm not here to argue or fight, I'm obviously here to talk video games. I still feel, as someone who's a PC gamer, used computers over the years, and has a very good understanding of what DRM is, I feel Nintendo fans and console gamers need to learn what DRM is to better understand why it exists. So, here's what DRM is.

DRM, short for Digital Rights Management, is any technological measure put into place to stop copying or moving digital data, in attempt to stop piracy. DRM could be anything, ranging from a simple copy protection, a CD check in older PC games, to requiring an account to play a game, to online checks, to always online connections, to even stuff like Denuvo, which on PC games, can bog down performance and occasionally check in online to a server. It's not exclusive to stuff like Denuvo, it's any technological measure that prevents moving data.

Yes, like it or not, this does include the way SD cards work on Switch. When you get a new Switch, like moving from a Switch to a Switch OLED, the easiest thing to do is to move that SD card from one Switch to another. It's already formatted to work on a Switch, forcing players to reformat the card is a great way to wipe those eShop games off it, thus stopping potential piracy, which is what DRM is intended to do.

It even applies to Wii, why do I need to jump through hoops via a system transfer, when all my virtual console games are already on my SD card? Moving it to a new Wii or a Wii U via Wii mode should be simple as popping it into the new console. Because Nintendo has their own DRM in place, that's why.

Nintendo has always had DRM in some form, like I said, adding Denuvo will only add more DRM on top of it. Just because it isn't making waves like Denuvo (or similar DRM like SecuROM did back when Spore was new), doesn't make it any more or less of a DRM.

@Sunsy You know before this it was PC games and I played that enough until they came with Steam/GOG DRM online system that stopped my playing PC games. DRM never helped or made game experiences better it went the opposite directions. That is why we have Crack, Hacks bypassing game protection aka DRM and why PC games are going downhill. And once they stopped make physical PC games that will the death nail for PC games. Also not everyone can afforded ISP to have Steam/GOG that is a requirement that Steam/GOG don't tell you. Considering everyone is talking about DRM again means Denuvo royally screwed up here. They even as noted online did a PR talking point but no one believes their BS about it. Hope this teaches such DRM companies Gamers aren't that dumb or stupid anymore and will fight back. This is why we have Piracy to start with if DRM stopped pirates would have no options.

Again you keep confusing Formatting to DRM again. Not the same thing.

Setting aside the DRM discussion for a second, why do you keep saying that paying for an ISP is some sort of hidden cost that digital only gamers are constantly being blindsided by? I notice you bring it up almost anytime Steam or any other digital marketplace is brought up.

No one who has the money to splurge on a $500+ gaming PC (or the money to buy a digital only console like the Series S) doesn't already pay for an internet plan.

I'm actually not worried about it.

This variant of Denuvo will not use an internet connection. And in my experience, that's what causes performance issues. Furthermore, it's something that will be selectively employed by specific 3rd parties for games- I'm not expecting many to pay for using it.

In the end, the games will eventually get cracked, but it should at the very least prevent the Switch games using it from being flaunted a week early by pirates using emulators. Probably won't stop ppl using hacked Switches, but whatever.

@SwitchForce PC gaming isn't struggling right now because of DRM, if it appears that way that's because the gaming industry as a whole is struggling. The seemingly endlessly long dilemma people refer to as "chip shortages" makes it increasingly difficult to find the important parts we need. Finding specific GPUs for your custom computer isn't so easy or cheap anymore.

You claim DRM only goes in a backward direction, but that's just your opinion. Steam transformed LOTS of heavy PC pirates into actually paying for games. The cheap sales, benefits, services, and all the community perks the platform delivers served many to stop pirating, Steam played a huge role in PC gaming and still does. With good games costing just a couple of bucks and the added convenience steam includes with it, has demonstrated how people prefer convenience and leisure even if it means paying money for their games and dealing with DRM.

@Torn Disconnect from the internet and Steam/GOG are worthless. It requires connection everytime you use them. That to me is what stopped me from enjoying PC games. At least Switch Digital and physical - I am not tied down to always on internet to enjoying the games. The lost of physical PC games and forcing only streaming with no physical ownerships only benefitted Rental and they make money constantly. The games are less but your tied to their business model of NO game ownerships. That's not convenience that's what they made you think. You have no voice or power how they run streaming your at their mercy of the TOS online services. This is why anything Cloud on the Switch never goes anywhere.

@SwitchForce
Disconnect from the internet and Steam/GOG are worthless. It requires connection everytime you use them

This is blatantly false. Not sure where you're getting your information from, but you're misinformed.

That is demonstrably untrue.

Steam games only need to connect once for life, when you first boot the game. After that, it's "verified" and you can launch without internet to your heart's content.

@JaxonH This. Also, I play GOG games regularly on my PC. Can't count how many times I've installed a GOG game I had backed up, without logging in or using the completely optional Galaxy client, without being connected online. Just install and play them, the reason why I feel DRM-free (or no DRM at all) is best for digital games.

To add, last night I had on a live stream I was listening to and playing the GOG release of Mortal Kombat 2. I lost my Internet connection, stream ended, my game was still going!

I have used Steam in offline mode before. Years ago, played some single player games when the ISP had to work on Internet issues on my house. Still was able to play Counter-Strike: Condition Zero no problem.

Steam's offline mode is where I encountered Sonic Mania's online requirement before they removed Denuvo, but other games still worked. BTW, thanks for clarifying the Switch version of Denuvo doesn't require online connection.