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Topic: Kirby and the Forgotten Land

Posts 81 to 100 of 111

Octane

@BenAV It seems like the "levels" will be similar to Odyssey, quite open (based on the theme park, desert, and beach levels). They don't seem to be very linear. The game probably won't be "BOTW open world", but it seems like there's some kind of connection between the levels. Like if you could walk from one level to another in Sunshine for example. Or maybe that's all just one giant level. Hard to tell.

Octane

Snaplocket

@chipia The small separate sections were all boring and lacked any character.

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chipia

Snaplocket wrote:

@chipia The small separate sections were all boring and lacked any character.

I agree. Joseph Anderson is right when he says that they seem like they were thrown together in a prototype 3D Mario Maker. I don't understand how most critics gave this game a pass on that.

chipia

Bolt_Strike

In regard to the linearity vs. open world debate, Gamexplain did a pretty thorough analysis of the openness of what was shown in the trailer.

To summarize, the game appears to be more like 3D World than Odyssey. The level design largely corrals you in a particular direction and the camera seems to automatically pan as you round corners implying no camera control.

I do think a 3D World approach is better for HAL's first attempt at 3D since it would be easier for them to make, but I would like to see them open things up further down the road. And I would be fine with either (although I didn't like 3D World because the game played too similarly to a lot of past Mario games but that style of platformer can still be fun).

My larger issue with what we've been shown has been how empty the levels look. And I don't mean in terms of the abandoned city theme, I mean there's... not a lot to interact with. You have wide open areas with nothing but 1 or 2 enemies, very few star coins, blocks, and overworld puzzles, just a ton of background scenery and not a lot of gameplay substance. It kind of reminds me of SwSh (and a couple of instances in previous 3D Pokemon games like XY and SM) where you had all of this beautiful and interesting background scenery you want to explore but you're walled off from doing so and the actual content you can interact with is very simplistic and uninteresting. I'm very surprised more people aren't calling HAL out on this, it seems plain as day to me.

@chipia Not a full one, but Bowser's Fury is side mode that's a proof of concept for one. Make something about 6-8 times that size and I think you've got the recipe for an open world platformer.

Bolt_Strike

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VoidofLight

@Bolt_Strike Not to defend a kirby game, since I've been ripped off in the past, but it's kind of dumb to compare a rpg game to a 3D platformer. A better comparison would be 3D world, which had similar issues with some of it's levels as well. 3D world had a couple of areas like the sprawling Savannah level, where there was just this massive open space, but nothing in said open space to really do.

The other levels mostly had enemies and collectables, which is a standard for 3D platformers, and this game seems to have those as well. It's just that some places in these levels just seem more open, and due to that it's empty. It's also important to note that people probably don't get onto HAL for this, given it's the first time they ever truly developed a 3D platforming game.. at least the first time the Kirby team has.

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

Bolt_Strike

@VoidofLight This game actually looks even worse than 3D World in that regard. 3D World is actually pretty good at packing its levels with things to do. Even if it's something small like some coins, blocks, or enemies, they do much more with that space. Sprawling Savanna did seem somewhat more empty than say, Odyssey, but compared to this it's utterly packed. I would say the bigger issue with Sprawling Savanna is that the timer limited how much you can explore, exploration and time limits don't really work well together. Also 3D World wasn't really any less open than this, the only real difference is that the levels meld into the background more instead of being clusters of blocks floating in the sky (also something they pointed out in that Gamexplain video). Even beyond Sprawling Savanna, 3D World had its fair share of open levels (other examples: Super Bell Hill, Really Rolling Hills, Sunshine Seaside).

As for comparing it to Pokemon, I don't see any reason why you can't. Just because it's a different genre doesn't mean that they're not using similar design philosophies, and I see a lot of those here. Particularly in terms of putting more effort into making the background visuals look good than making a fun and functional world to interact with.

Bolt_Strike

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VoidofLight

@Bolt_Strike The reason why I said pokemon couldn't be compared to Kirby is because they're two entirely different games with entirely different gameplay types.

As for 3D world, Nintendo had experience with the type of game before. 3D land, and previous 3D marios helped pave the way to 3D world... and 3D Land is largely forgotten about, as it wasn't great at all in comparison. Kirby hasn't had any past 3D games that were actually in the same playstyle as their 2D ones. There was one game that experimented with 3D, but other than that, this is the first one they ever truly made. That being said, the levels are pretty empty, and I'm not going to deny that. Most of the areas in the trailer are just empty halls with nothing in them at all, and while some of the areas looked less empty, others still looked fairly empty.

There's a chance that later trailers will show more of the game, and it'll be better, but I'm not truthfully expecting much, especially with how Star Allies was.

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anynamereally

@Bolt_Strike this trailer was taken straight out from WIP build, so of course it looks a bit empty and undeveloped. Things could (and should) impove with time, let's look at it again somewhere in early 2022 closer to release.

anynamereally

Octane

@Bolt_Strike Problem with that video is that he assumes that all of those guardrails, rocks and whatnot are invisible barriers. Even stuff that looks explorable must have some kind of invisible wall. That seems very counterintuitive game design. If that is true, my interest couldn't be any lower.

@anynamereally Game trailers are made to provide with a sneak peak of what you will be playing, if the trailer isn't representative of the final game, then it's just a bad trailer.

Octane

chipia

@Octane Well, then let's hope that this IS just a bad trailer, because the emptiness of the world is offputting indeed.

Edited on by chipia

chipia

Buizel

Yeah I very much got the impression that this game will be more 3D World style than anything. Not that that's a problem at all --- the 3D World formula is excellent, plus many of the levels are plenty open enough. And I'm just very glad that HAL are finally making any jump into 3D.

I do wonder how Kirby will control in 3D. Infinite flying is unlikely to be a thing, and I wonder how swallowing will feel as a button press instead of down!

@chipia The Jak series was known for seamless transitions between areas, but I dunno if they'd be considered "open-world" by today's standards. The first game was essentially a number of interconnected levels, but with no wide-open hub as it wasn't technically achievable at the time. The second and third games have a bit more of a central hub...at the cost of the rest of the map feeling a bit tacked on rather than part of a larger open world.

Previously "timleon" and "HunterLeon"

Currently playing: who can keep track anymore.

Snaplocket

@Bolt_Strike Personally I found 3d World vastly superior to Odyssey in almost every way.

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Snaplocket

@chipia How is it a bad trailer? It shows Kirby in 3D, one of the bosses, the world and it looks a lot of fun. It's way better then Pokemon Sw/Sh or Legend Arcrues' initial trailers.

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Bolt_Strike

@anynamereally Games rarely make that many changes this close to release. Maybe some optimizations or minor graphical changes, but never anything as major as adding more content to a game.

@Octane They're not assuming, they're predicting. That's their bread and butter, they analyze trailers to predict what the game's going to be like, in no way are they saying for sure it'll be like that. The evidence overwhelmingly points towards it being a linear, enclosed experience, but we don't know for sure.

@Snaplocket Because the game looks empty. There's not a lot of game content populating the areas. For example, let's look at the shopping mall section:

Untitled

The screenshot of the first floor of the mall shows a fairly open court right before the escalator. Seems like a good place for you to run around and explore right? So what do they have there? Two enemies. That's it. No coins to collect, no blocks to break, no puzzles to solve, nothing to interact with it seems. Maybe there's a secret hidden off-camera, but that's about it. You can probably blow through this section in about 5 seconds before moving on. Doesn't that seem kind of short and dull? You see the same thing through most of the rest of the trailer. The game feels like a giant walking simulator with a smattering of enemies throughout.

They seem to have put way too much time and effort into making the background elements look good than making the actual, interactable portions of the level look fun and engaging. Again, it reminds me of some of the things they've done in 3D Pokemon games. Remember in XY when you had all of those Power Plant buildings but the doors were locked and we couldn't actually get to them? Or in SM where there was a giant golf course that we couldn't actually visit? Or in SwSh where there were buildings in the entire back half of Turffield that weren't explorable? I'm seeing similar design philosophies here. They're making it look like it's this giant city for us to run around in but we're probably not going to be able to interact with much of it and the levels themselves are just going to not just be linear and easy, but empty and simplistic affairs that we can blow through without much to engage with in the levels to keep us occupied.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

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Octane

It'll be incredibly stupid if you can't even hop the fences to access the area underneath the escalator.

Octane

kkslider5552000

I do think this might be the recurring issue Nintendo does where they save a lot of the cool stuff for the 2nd trailer. Which is fine here, because the novelty of a 3D Kirby is plenty for now.

It's hard to say exactly where the game is going. I mostly dislike the idea that 3D World is the only linear 3D platformer now, especially since this seems to have a better camera than 3D World quite frankly. This seems for the most part, exactly like a 3D platformer version of Kirby more than anything.

I also have my doubts it will be slow or lacking, its pretty clear this trailer was made to establish the setting and then sloooowly bring Kirby gameplay into it. To the point of it being weird about it, like they spent a minute of Kirby avoiding enemies for no apparent reason (unless they wanted to establish that you can walk around enemies now that its in 3D(!!!), which would be hilarious if that's what they were going for)

Edited on by kkslider5552000

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VoidofLight

@kkslider5552000 The issue of saving stuff for the second trailer is apparent with BotW 2, where they didn't show much at all, making it look more akin to a DLC than a full on sequel.

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

Henmii

I am wondering if it plays in our world, because of the overgrown buildings and stuff. Maybe it plays in Kyoto and you have to save HAL laboratories? Meta, right?!

Edited on by Henmii

Henmii

VoidofLight

@Henmii It's not our world, since our world is iced over completely in the Kirby Universe.

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