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Topic: The Nintendo Switch Rumor and Speculation Thread

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skywake

From the first reveal I always took it as like the Majora's Mask to BotWs Ocarina of Time. Heavy re-use of assets and engine to get the game out relatively quick. But maybe with some new found freedom to experiment with ideas given they're not so focused on the more technical bits

Or it could be more of a Mario Galaxy 2 type deal. Either way, this type of approach has usually worked out alright

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An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

Bolt_Strike

skywake wrote:

From the first reveal I always took it as like the Majora's Mask to BotWs Ocarina of Time. Heavy re-use of assets and engine to get the game out relatively quick. But maybe with some new found freedom to experiment with ideas given they're not so focused on the more technical bits
Or it could be more of a Mario Galaxy 2 type deal. Either way, this type of approach has usually worked out alright

Those comparisons... really aren't that accurate. There seems to be a major difference between TotK and same generation sequels like MM or Galaxy 2. TotK seems to largely be reusing the same map (it seems to be about 80% the original BotW map, 20% new locations), whereas MM and Galaxy 2 primarily had unique maps/levels. A more accurate comparison would be more along the lines of Pokemon Black 2/White 2 or Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon (really it feels like it has the story of BW2 but the gameplay of USUM). It just feels like the same experience all over again with a few new additions. And for a game that's built off BotW but took 5 years... that's pretty disappointing. You'd expect something closer to MM/Galaxy 2 than BW2/USUM in that timeframe, even accounting for the time they lost during the pandemic (I do think we can see the reason why it actually took so long from that gameplay demo and I won't spoil it, but while it does look fun it probably shouldn't have been a big focus for this game), and the BW2/USUM formula didn't really work well (especially USUM, which like TotK, felt far too much like SM all over again with not enough changes to justify paying full price all over again) to the point where they've now replaced those types of experiences with DLC. I'm not so sure it'll work out that well for them (it'll probably sell well because casual fans do seem to just buy the big IPs regardless, but probably significantly less than BotW and will probably be seen as a relative disappointment).

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

StuTwo

@Bolt_Strike you’re making a lot of assumptions. All we know is that large parts of the original map are in the game. We don’t know how much new terrain there is in total. For all we know there’s a light world dark world dynamic at play and the old map is less than 50%.

It could be Pokémon Gold/Silver.

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

skywake

@Bolt_Strike
I think you're making a pretty pedantic point there. I don't think the game map is such a different asset that it needs to be split out like that. For example, A Link Between Worlds had its map pretty much entirely copied from A Link to the Past but I think its fair to say they're entirely different games. Hell, Zelda in general has technically had the same map across most of its games

I made the example of Super Mario Galaxy 2 as a game that had a similar amount of asset reuse. Which you dismissed because the levels themselves were (largely) new. But I'd argue that Galaxy 2 was, generally, more like the second set of levels we got in 3D Land/World. Still definitely a great game but.... it was basically the same game. And that was fine because, you know, more Galaxy is good

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

Bolt_Strike

skywake wrote:

I think you're making a pretty pedantic point there. I don't think the game map is such a different asset that it needs to be split out like that.

It is though. The different assets have a different effect on the game, so you kind of have to view them differently. The same/similar storyline and characters means the narrative surrounding the game will be similar (duh). The same enemies means you'll be using the same/similar strategies to defeat them. Similar obstacles/gameplay elements means you'll be interacting with the world in the exact same world. A similar map though? That means all of the different design elements, the paths you take through the area, the obstacles placed in the area, and the enemies placed in the area, are all similar. If all of that is recycled then you're just robotically repeating the same thing you did the first time you properly interacted with the game world, and that greatly reduces the fun. So yeah, level design is pretty important to the point where you can view it separately from the others.

skywake wrote:

For example, A Link Between Worlds had its map pretty much entirely copied from A Link to the Past but I think its fair to say they're entirely different games.

Not really. I've always considered it a pseudo-remake of ALttP of sorts. It provides a similar experience for those that were too young to experience ALttP, but it layers unique elements onto the experience that makes it a slightly different experience. There's a key difference between ALBW and TotK though. ALBW released 22 years after ALttP. That's more than long enough for people to forget or even never have experienced the original maps of ALttP and miss them. Whereas BotW is the most recent Zelda experience (or at least the most recent original Zelda experience) and is still fresh in people's memories, so it's too recent for there to be much of an appetite to re-explore the same maps all over again. I think when a lot of people heard about a sequel to BotW they expected something more like MM than ALBW, something with a similar engine, characters, and gameplay elements but a different layout. Reusing the layout just a few years after the original tends to result in "this should be DLC" complaints (again Pokemon's third versions are a relevant example here, third versions were commonly criticized by Pokemon fans for being largely similar, full priced experiences that only released a year or two after the new generation).

skywake wrote:

Hell, Zelda in general has technically had the same map across most of its games

It reuses many of the same locations, but not the same map. Sure you'll see Hyrule Field, Hyrule Castle, Kakariko Village, Death Mountain, etc. in multiple Zelda games but they're only the same place in name only, design wise they're completely different areas with different layouts. In terms of reusing the same layouts the only other relevant example in Zelda is ALttP -> ALBW.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

skywake

@Bolt_Strike
I get where you're coming from but I don't agree. And possibly my examples thus far haven't really been the best because, honestly, there aren't really that many examples like this. Most games sequels that have done the massive asset re-use on the same platform added new levels or had different settings. That was part of the reason to revisit. The clearest examples of that exact thing happening have been in Pokemon, and not particularly ambitious releases at that

I do still feel like the better comparison is Majora's Mask and Galaxy 2 though. Purely because of the scale and critical acclaim of BotW originally and the time spent on this. I don't think we come out the other side of TotK and think "yeah, that was just BotW again"

Also from memory Super Mario Galaxy 2 had quite a few levels that were either ripped directly from or heavily inspired by levels in Galaxy. And a couple from Sunshine and Mario 64. Hell, the 3D Mario games in general are "here's this 3D space, here are half a dozen challenges for it". The majority of those games is, quite literally, about revisiting the same levels. Of course they get away with it because usually the level becomes flooded/frozen/whatever or you gain some new ability or are asked to do something different in that space. But they're the same levels

Like @StuTwo said it could well be that TotK has a "dark world" or something equivalent that flips our perspective on that same map. Or some new game mechanic that alters the way we interact with the overworld. Or something else entirely. I don't know, maybe they've already revealed some of this? I'm trying to avoid looking at any of the trailers so it could well be that they've already revealed this one way or another. Either way, I'm not particularly concerned

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

Bolt_Strike

skywake wrote:

I do still feel like the better comparison is Majora's Mask and Galaxy 2 though. Purely because of the scale and critical acclaim of BotW originally and the time spent on this. I don't think we come out the other side of TotK and think "yeah, that was just BotW again"

BotW's critical acclaim means nothing in this context. Zelda's had multiple critically acclaimed games, but it's also had several divisive ones that went in directions that some of the fanbase hasn't really liked. I think TotK is going to be one of the more divisive ones, with the debate of "is this really a sequel or $70 DLC" continuing for years.

skywake wrote:

Also from memory Super Mario Galaxy 2 had quite a few levels that were either ripped directly from or heavily inspired by levels in Galaxy. And a couple from Sunshine and Mario 64. Hell, the 3D Mario games in general are "here's this 3D space, here are half a dozen challenges for it". The majority of those games is, quite literally, about revisiting the same levels. Of course they get away with it because usually the level becomes flooded/frozen/whatever or you gain some new ability or are asked to do something different in that space. But they're the same levels

Galaxy 2 did recycle a few levels from Galaxy 1 and a few older games, but they didn't account for much of the levels, no more than 10% of the game. 3D Land and 3D World, meanwhile, don't reuse levels from past games, just from earlier in the game. And it's mainly to add extra levels to the game, boil the game down to the original levels and you'd still have a satisfying Mario game comparable in length to other Mario games, they're just making an already satisfyingly long Mario game even longer. None of these are comparable to TotK reusing about 80% of the original map.

skywake wrote:

Like @StuTwo said it could well be that TotK has a "dark world" or something equivalent that flips our perspective on that same map. Or some new game mechanic that alters the way we interact with the overworld. Or something else entirely. I don't know, maybe they've already revealed some of this? I'm trying to avoid looking at any of the trailers so it could well be that they've already revealed this one way or another. Either way, I'm not particularly concerned

It's possible, but doubtful that they're hiding a Dark World. There was one new mechanic revealed that you might think qualifies as a "new way to interact with the overworld", but I don't think that that's quite enough to make re-exploring the map still fun after 6 years, it's something that affects what we can do and how we can interact with the world, but doesn't actually change the world itself. This new mechanic is likely what's responsible for the long dev time as it's something that probably required a ton of testing. Most likely the sky islands and underground areas are basically all we're going to get in terms of layout changes.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

@GrailUK Ssshhh! skywake just said they didn't want to know what was happening in the Aonuma livestream. Put that in spoilers for their sake, please.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

GrailUK

@Bolt_Strike Eek! How do I put it in spoilers? Edit- nevermind, I'll delete it

Edited on by GrailUK

I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.

Switch FC: SW-0287-5760-4611

Bolt_Strike

@GrailUK use [ spoiler ][ /spoiler ] but remove the spaces inside the []. Example:

Spoiler stuff

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

TheBigBlue

Accidentally made my own spoiler, bad explanation. Bolt strike did it better

Wait, why do we need a signature? Eh, I don’t know. Here’s your signature.

GrailUK

@Bolt_Strike Ah thanks for that. Sorry Skywake if you read anything. I'll know better next time.

I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.

Switch FC: SW-0287-5760-4611

FishyS

I feel like the rumours and speculation thread is a bad place to be if you want to avoid spoilers; the thread's whole purpose is to be a mixture of 10% spoilers and 90% made up stuff.

FishyS

Switch Friend Code: SW-2425-4361-0241

skywake

@GrailUK
All good, didn't see anything. You posted at like 4AM my time

@FishyS
I think there's a bit of a clear line between a spoiler and a rumour/speculation. Some might disagree but I don't think anything you would typically put on a store shelf can be a spoiler. A game existing isn't a spoiler, hardware isn't a spoiler, a spec sheet isn't a spoiler.....

......... but fair call, pretty risky to jump into the rumour and speculation thread and talk about a game I don't want spoiled

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

cwong15

Speculation: TotK is more expensive because the game file size no longer fits on a 16GB cartridge. The store says that 18.2GB of storage is needed, so that bumps it into the next cartridge size. This would not affect digital downloads, but they don't want to have different prices for physical vs digital.

cwong15

SwitchForce

New update that has the YT confirmed is coming.

Nintendo Switch 2 JUST LEAKED! - Rumor

Looks like it will have the cart exclusive like 3DS XL to New 3DS XL with the wider slot but still be able to use the older carts. So there we have it BC all but confirmed. NintenDoomed must be rolling in their graves. He also did say the person said they faked the info but he did also mention the Patents were too much evidence that nothing was not happening in development and DevKit were sent out or final DevKits were sent out and some rumor was they been out since beginning of 2022 so that in itself seems to indicate some of the rumor are telling something but not telling everything.

Edited on by SwitchForce

SwitchForce

GrailUK

'@SwitchForce The 'source' of the hawk rumour already admitted he made it all up (like last week.) Crazy how behind these guys are (and how little research - i.e effort, they make.)

I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.

Switch FC: SW-0287-5760-4611

FragRed

@GrailUK Research and being up to date means nothing when your channel relies on just pumping out videos to garner as much views as possible.

NEW WEBSITE LAUNCHED! Regular opinion articles, retro game reviews and impression pieces on new games! ENGAGE VG: EngageVG.com

GrailUK

@FragRed Views > News I guess

I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.

Switch FC: SW-0287-5760-4611

FragRed

@GrailUK Understood that and you can understand how the Daily Mail is still alive.

NEW WEBSITE LAUNCHED! Regular opinion articles, retro game reviews and impression pieces on new games! ENGAGE VG: EngageVG.com

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