Topic: Anyone else a bit unhappy with backwards compatibility?

I could maybe see the Xenoblade games and the Paper Mario TTYD remake getting free Switch 2 updates, simply because both Xenoblade X and Paper Mario supposedly have 60 FPS in their code. After all those, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the upgrades were paid Switch 2 Editions. Again, I'm only theorizing here.

Edit: as for whether people are unhappy with backwards compatibility or not, I'm just happy that the feature actually exists and really hope that it keeps existing going forward.

Ah those I know, I thought they used the "Edition" name for the free ones too. Odyssey looks much improved, even without any further additions I'd love it if Nintendo gave all major games that treatment.

I am very happy with the BC. so many games that had unlocked frames that are now a stable 60fps... Or at least stable 30fps...

MH Stories 2 at locked 60fps 720p handheld 1080p docked is chef's kiss.

I don't think games look worse. Technically.
The image is on a higher pixel screen BUT the extra power ensures dynamic resolution stays at its max and doesn't drop. And since nearly every game used dynamic resolution that more than compensates for any fidelity lost being on a 1080p screen.

@OmnitronVariant
Totally agree. In fact, I'll go one step further and say they should have programmed it so that all NSW1 games automatically output docked image in NSW2 handheld mode.

I know it's possible because I do that exact same thing on my chipped NSW1 OLED that I got to overclock with (NSW2 wasn't out yet, plus NSW2 is still limited by max handheld resolution and game is programmed for- the chipped OLED can output any game in higher res by simply outputting docked image on the screen.

Immortals Fenyx Rising looks so good in 720p handheld and locked 30fps. On NSW2 it cant render more than 540p handheld.

Not all games are like that. And there are quite a few that are better on NSW2. Games, where even when you overclock, you can't get a stable 60fps or games that already were 720p handheld mode.

That's why I keep my chipped OLED around. Any game that looks as good and runs as good on that as it would on my NSW2 I keep it there. That way I saves space because I don't have enough room to put everything on NSW2 anyways.

There’s so many first party games that need upgrades and now based on this Kirby dlc I think we’re essentially going to be sold the upgrades on all the games which should be working on their sequels. Luigi’s mansion. Mario wonder. Metroid dread.

Well here’s hoping Luigi’s mansion 1 is the dlc to Luigi’s mansion 3. Metroid Federation force for Metroid dread. And Mario 3d land for Mario wonder.

Somehow I don’t think it will be anywhere near as generous.

@NintendoWife
I'm a bit confused by your complaints here. Excluding actual BC problems like the games that don't boot or crash I don't see how a Switch game running on Switch 2 docked would ever be worse than the same on Switch

Not saying it's universally better. There are some downgrades to Switch games on Switch 2. But these downgrades are due to the screen on the Switch 2. The fact that the 720p doesn't fit cleanly into 1080p, the fact that the Switch 2 screen prioritised refresh rate over contrast and pixel response. None of these issues apply when docked

Really, the only problem you might encounter playing Switch games on Switch 2 is that the improved clarity and performance moves where the weakest link if the game is. Or just generally better performance and different expectations makes it hard to go back to how it was on Switch.

Honestly, when docked, the only issue I've seen is that some games put information in loading screens. And now the loading screens are super fast. Which can be an issue

In my experience it's been pretty good.

Every single game that I've got that was on the list prior to launch as incompatible has been patched by now. I dare say that there are plenty still that don't work, however, both Nintendo and the developers of the games in question have clearly been putting in the hard work to make at least the more popular games function.

Some games still have occasional glitches and niggles but they're few and far between and I'm not entirely sure that they weren't present in the originals. So far, so good.

There is one glaring issue though and it's that so many Switch games are rendered sub-native and reliant upon a mixture of anti-aliasing and sharpening filters to get a somewhat acceptable picture. However, what works on the small screens of an OG Switch or Lite can get thrown rather off-kilter by the larger screen of a Switch 2, and the inexact upscale to 1080p, to the point where it looks obviously blurry.

I'm thinking in particular of the numbered Xenoblade games here, although a lot of the more demanding "miracle ports" rely upon similar solutions. I'm not really sure what Nintendo could do about this, as it's an inherent limitation of the games themselves rather than anything to do with the compatibility layer.

Ultimately, the affected games could all use a performance patch, although I doubt that too many developers will be in a hurry to revisit something that's eight years old just to provide a free upgrade.

It's exclusive to the Switch 2 but I guess some people are making the point that despite being a Switch 2 title it has old inferior FSR upscaling instead of DLSS. This could be due to the greater CPU requirements of DLSS or just the engine was started initially to use FSR like many Switch 1 games and would need serious re-writing to update to DLSS. As DLSS needs to be integrated into the code itself to give all the correct information to the Nvidia GPU for upscaling they decided not to do that work.

Personally I don't see how Cyberpunk isn't a fully tailored Switch 2 game. They have completely optimised it for Switch 2 reducing the CPU load with a much lower amount of pedestrians walking about etc but given it good graphic features that the Nvidia GPU can handle. The DLSS upscaling has been done to maximise use of the hardware features. To me that is a fully optimised Switch 2 game. I know people will state it hasn't been designed from the ground up for Switch 2 but I don't really agree with that. You have a vision for a game and you work towards it based on what the hardware is capable of. The Switch 2 is relatively simple architecture compared to past consoles like PS3 and PS2 that were difficult to develop for and get full performance out of them. NO reason the Switch 2 can't achieve a decent performance level right out of the gate. However I think I read that currently the Switch 2 uses 2 of its CPU cores for the operating system but there is a goal to get that to 1 CPU core in the future by optimising the operating system and game chat code. This will mean at some point another 1Ghz ARM A78 core will be available for later games so perhaps a year from now games will have an extra 15% or so extra CPU resources going from 6 cores to 7 cores. That's a fair chunk of extra CPU resources that will come in time. I think the PS4 had a similar situation it shipped with 2 cores used initially even though it has a auxiliary ARM processor to help with background tasks and dedicated audio processing but in time they cut it back to just one CPU core and released a lot of extra performance for later PS4 games. At the moment the Switch 2 probably has less CPU performance for games than the later PS4 firmware as Virtuos has stated Switch 2 is only marginally faster than the original PS4 in cpu terms. The passmark score for 8 ARM A78s at 1ghz is about 1900 where as the PS4 Jaguar cores 8x1.6Ghz is around 1700 but the passmark score for the ARM A78 was based on a android system which is much lighter than the Windows system on resources than the Jaguar cores were tested on but both would be significantly less than the Nintendo operating system with game chat etc. You would normally do a passmark test with the absolute minimum running in the background.

I'm convinced we will see a significant jump in Switch 2 CPU resources given time which will help out many later games.

I haven't had any problems. One of my favourite games, Snowrunner, has much faster load times on Switch 2, sharper visuals and superior audio.

I've named my complaints. There is added input latency because of the emulation layer, not just in theory but you can see & feel it. And the other is that the output to TV looks worse in my configuration, which is an LG 4K TV set so that native S2 games look great. Colors: S1 games look muted compared to when I start them on the original console. Clarity: The original system looks softer than S2 playing the same games. OG S1 only outputs HD resolution, so the TV takes care of upscaling, likely. Not sure where the upscaling happens when playing S1 games on S2, but the result makes me think "ugh this games needs an update".

This may be a stupid question, but have you turned on the setting where the S2 inputs HDR to the TV only if the game supports it? I have an LG 4K TV as well, and originally I used the setting where the S2 forced HDR on every game, but that made the colours on some Switch 1 games (none of which obviously have native HDR support) look kinda odd and muted on the telly. So I changed the setting, and now those S1 games look they should again without the forced HDR.

That is one thing I need to check, yes. I did go through some procedure from a Youtube guide because 'out of the box' it wasn't possible to adjust HDR correctly (something something crushed levels I forgot).

@NintendoWife What games have you tested that you believe have extra input lag?

Mark from Electric Underground did his usual input lag tests on some shmups and fighting games and found that the input lag was basically the same as Switch 1 for the games he tested.

Another Youtuber, noodalls, tested some more fighting games and found that 2 games had basically the same input lag (Smash Ultimate and Capcom vs. SNK 2) while 2 others had less input lag on Switch 2 (Dragon Ball FighterZ and Guilty Gear Strive).

@Azileron How is Nier Automata unplayable? I tried it for a little while on the Switch 2 and it didn't seem to have any issues. Does something happen if you play for a longer stretch? (I only played it for half an hour or so.)

Edit: I did a bit of digging, and apparently a lot of players have had crashes and other issues on route B, whereas route C seems to work fine. I'm on my second playthrough and I'd already made it to route C before buying the Switch 2, so I guess that would explain why I didn't have any issues.

@NintendoWife
Firstly it's not emulating Switch games, there's a translation layer. It's a similar sort of process that happens on something like the Steam Deck or, to some degree, what graphics card drivers do on PC. Obviously all processes take some time but I don't think it's significant. I certainly haven't noticed it and, frankly, your post is the first time I've seen someone complain about the docked experience

When people complain about Switch 2 BC, as they are doing in this thread even ignoring your post entirely, they're talking about the handheld experience. They're talking about the LCD screen being broadly worse than the one on the OLED model. They're talking about how 720p doesn't neatly fit into 1080p. I think these issues have been somewhat overblown as they always tend to be in this day and age. But they are there

But what you're describing.... yeah, doesn't really add up. Switch 2 will scale internally to 4K if 4K is set and 4K is a nice multiple of both 720p and 1080p so that shouldn't be an isssue. Also there are more pixels to play with at that resolution. And then additionally, I haven't heard anything regarding input latency docked. I also haven't noticed it myself or had any issues with colour/contrast. Honestly, the issue is more likely your TV's settings. You haven't tuned the HDR properly or the input isn't set to game-mode or something

Watch this, set the HDR setting to "compatible software only", also make sure HGIG on your TV is turned on and then come back

Yes, I tried things like: Octopath Traveller II, handheld, just going through the title menu options and seeing how quick the cursor would follow the input.

It's not huge, but the difference is there.

Interesting, thanks for the links! Wonder how he measured input lag, did he film the buttons?

Thanks for the link on HDR, I'll give that a go!
As for translation layer vs. emulation, would you have a source on that too, or someone describing what's happening there?

To be clear, I'd love to be wrong on this. I had just come from trying out GameCube emulation on Switch 2 and found the input lag appalling (right from the title menu of Wind Waker, feels like half a second before the cursor follows your input), so I was very sensitive to any untight feel.

The two use slightly different techniques to measure input lag.

Mark wires an LED to his input device (likely an arcade stick) and then films the game and the LED with a high-speed camera (likely 120 Hz). You can see the LED and the screen in the footage I linked. The LED lights up immediately when the input is registered by the input device, and then he just counts the difference in game frames between the LED lighting up and the corresponding game action happening on screen.

Noodalls' method is a little less clear to me. He uses what he calls the "phototransitor method," which involves using a phototransistor to measure a change in light on screen at a fixed location that he knows will change on button press. Usually he'll use the command history in a fighting game's training mode for this purpose. But I'm not exactly sure how he measures the time that a button is pressed.

It's from this interview with the devs that worked on Switch 2 backwards compatibility:

Dohta: If we tried to use technology like software emulators (22), we’d have to run Switch 2 at full capacity, but that would mean the battery wouldn't last so long, so we did something that’s somewhere in between a software emulator and hardware compatibility.

(22) A software program that imitates certain hardware. Commonly used to run old software on a new device and requires higher processing power than the original device.

Sasaki: This is getting a bit technical, but the process of converting game data for Switch to run on Switch 2 is performed on a real-time basis as the data is read in.

The GCN emulation in the NSO app is pretty bad and is known to have high input lag, so you're not alone in this feeling. This video from Digital Foundry shows how the NSO GCN app version of F-Zero GX increases the input lag of the GCN original from about 4 frames to about 7 frames. But to be clear, this is an issue with the GCN app and not the Switch 2 itself.

@Azileron They're definitely pretty bad at communicating. Klonoa is one game I have which won't even open on Switch 2. I and several others I have spoken to all reported this to Nintendo. But the eShop page still says the game is fully supported on Switch 2. Continuing to sell a game from a major partner (Bandai) which doesn't work and just refunding it everytime someone complains shows pretty poor internal-to-Nintendo communication.

@Azileron Hard agree. I can't for the life of me figure out why Nintendo thought it would be a good idea to stop updating the compatibility lists. Makes absolutely no sense.

@FishyS That's really irritating that they're just trying to sweep the Klonoa issue under the rug without even acknowledging it.