Topic: PC vs X1X Cost Effectiveness

@ThanosReXXX So the big takeaway is: What is tomorrows price of GTX108x? Buying video cards looks like a day trader's game now

@Plywoodstick I don't disagree about the big bankers getting antsy and crushing it, but I'm not sure that's "the good versus evil" or the "flow of progress" in either direction so much as one crooked criminal currency leveraging dominance over another while it can. The bear fights the wolf. We're still what's for dinner regardless of who wins.

@NEStalgia I think it's too soon for Octa-core for most users, but it definitely is now a good, affordable option for productivity apps, cryptography, streamers, content creators, et al. Hexa-core is just now an even more affordable, yet future ready option right now. Quad core with 8 threads is still okay this year, but in the next couple of years, it's going to end up like dual cores are today. More cores is the future, since Intel became way too complacent about IPC gains. Extra clock speed above the 4.0-4.9 GHz range experiences diminishing returns with absurdly high heat to deal with, so more clock speed isn't a frontier anymore. Ryzen isn't monolithic, Intel's processors are, which makes it much cheaper for AMD to lay down more cores, while Intel is kinda stuck until whatever is past Tiger Lake in 2020. New games are already tapping out quad cores at 80-100% usage depending on the part, while hexa cores often only use 50-70% for the same games.

@NEStalgia Well, it's too bad that the leading currency isn't Bitcoin, otherwise you would have been able to buy two for the price of what one might have cost you last month...

@PlywoodStick True, but like I said: this will not be the first drop. Many more will follow, and it's negative image of being popular in criminal activities also isn't doing it any favors. It's still a very shady and unreliable currency.

@PlywoodStick cryptography sure. Streaming, content creation, productivity.....still very little of that really utilizes 4 let alone 8 cores in any meaningful way. Everyone really overestimates the threadedness of consumer software. And while gaming is often threaded currently, it often gets exported to the GPU for those threads, not the CPU.

For now, 4 cores, 8 cores 12 cores 50 cores......it's like the old mhz wars. 233mhz, 266mhz, 300mhz (lets ignore that tickrate doesn't mean much alone....consumers won't notice!) The benefit of more cores depends on workload. On a workstation heavily multiprocessing, visualizing, etc. absolutely. Desktop just doesn't have that many meaningful parallel tasks. Oh they'll sell it, they'll make it reality.....it still won't have much utility.

How games are tapping 80-100% of 4 cores, I have no clue. Sounds like dreadfully inefficient middleware. GPU, sure. CPU??

@NEStalgia I'll take the wolf over the bear any day.

The longstanding stigma against wolves belies that they generally only feed when hungry upon what's available, coordinate with each other, and follow a leader who manages the resources. (Despite popular belief, alphas aren't necessarily domineering and power wielding- that's actually what betas are like; alphas are just smarter and more socially accepted, they don't bicker.) Wolves actually prefer to stay away from humans whenever possible.

Whereas on the other hand, bears are much more gluttonous, are more prone to aggression, attacking even when they're not hungry, generally don't coordinate with others well, if at all, are less likely to care about the well-being of their own family in the long term, and are much tougher to deal with when they've asserted themselves.

(Cryptocurrency being the wolves and fiat being the bears.)

All this talk of new AMD and Intel processors and my FX8350 still runs everything like a champ

@PlywoodStick And that's how they get you. It doesn't matter who wins, if your'e the only one in the room with them, you're going to be lunch sooner rather than later

@ThanosReXXX Money can be interpreted as a form of energy exchange. It can be negatively or positively influenced, regardless of it's perceived form. Fiat currency is at least as prone to being used for nefarious, lethal, and dominating activities. Moreso at the moment, actually... not to excuse the criminal activity commenced using untracked cryptocurrency, but cryptocurrency isn't going to be funding endless wars and military grade killing machines and bombs used on whole civilian populations any time soon.

@NEStalgia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RMbYe4X2LI

Just a few examples of bog standard popular games where the Core i5-7600k, the $215-240 4 core/4 thread CPU aimed at gaming systems just one year ago, having already been tapped out in mid-range and mid-high end system configurations; meanwhile the competing 6 core/12 thread R5 1600/X has fuel left in the tank moving forward. To put that in perspective, next month the $100 4 core/4 thread Ryzen 3 2200G with a Vega-based iGPU is going to be released. Just one year later, quad-cores now represent low budget-oriented CPU's/APU's. (And the R5 1600 just got price dropped to under $200, which rains on the sub-$200 6 core/6 thread Core i5-8400's parade.)

https://www.pcper.com/news/Processors/CES-2018-AMD-Drops-Ryze...

CPU's with 4 core/8 thread are the same story, just not as exaggerated. There's all kinds of videos and info out there about this, modern games are just way more power hungry and process inefficient than older games were. Hexa-core is likely to become the new mainstream gaming gold standard by next year.

Edit: Woah I didn't embed them, it's auto-embedding lol

@RancidVomit86 Yes, the (octa-core!) FX8350 is a legendary CPU! It's definitely stood the test of time thus far alongside the Core i7-2600K. And it's got world record overclocking potential:

https://valid.x86.fr/records.php
https://valid.x86.fr/lpza4n

Nearly 8.8 GHz on liquid nitrogen. And they did it in Windows XP, with an otherwise now-mediocre system. Just ridiculous. That thing doesn't have top end performance anymore, but it's got world class legs carrying it! (Granted, going above the 5.0-5.9 GHz range isn't practical.)

@PlywoodStick Money as energy sounds a bit too floaty for my taste.
But Bitcoins are great for the lowlifes of this world because of the difficulties of containing/controlling it, hence its still perceived shady nature. Even if I had the money to spare, I would still never buy Bitcoins.

It's a VERY unstable currency and all the transactions/actions surrounding it, that you yourself will also need to understand, make it a highly undesirable currency for 9 out of 10 people, so in the end, only the elite and criminals will get rich off of it. In some ways, it even sounds like a pyramid game: those who were first, will always earn the most...

@ThanosReXXX "It's a VERY unstable currency and all the transactions/actions surrounding it, that you yourself will also need to understand, make it a highly undesirable currency for 9 out of 10 people, so in the end, only the elite and criminals will get rich off of it..."

If anything, I would say that perfectly describes the true nature of fiat currency on a worldwide scale, and what it really takes to uphold the petrodollar. As for cryptocurrency... yes, that's all potentially true as well. But not absolutely 100% true 100% of the time. It can be used as a force for good as well, without needing endless wars, lopsided trade deals, and inevitable bailouts to support it...

Regardless, the USA's future really got screwed over when the silver/gold standard (and really any kind of standard based on valuable materials) was forfeited. There's no going back. So that's why I think a new system needs to be created by the next century.

@PlywoodStick True, but there's a big difference between "it can" and "it will", and so far, Bitcoin, or any other shady online money transfer is connected to crime and/or the Dark Web 9 out of 10 times, so I rather stick with the old corrupt currency...

"The gold standard"

What? So no real Fort Knox with all them gold bars like in that James Bond movie anymore?

@ThanosReXXX Oh, it's still there, but about 2-3% of all gold ever refined throughout human history isn't much to go on, considering our nation's budget...

I'm also wondering about this: http://www.steadystate.org/money-and-the-steady-state-economy/

@RancidVomit86 I am still running an i5 2500k since release and keep wondering when Ill actually need to upgrade it... Still my next upgrade will be the video card again for the 3rd time instead.

@PlywoodStick I though I remember reading at one point that much of the gold at Knox was actually long gone. Heck, even if it existed there still it would just have a sign taped to it reading "Hold for Pickup - China."

@Inertiacreep Yeah that's where PC always comes back to driving me nuts....and Plywood is really reconfirming that notion. It's either "wait for product Z in 2 months" or "Just pay the extra $100 now, it'll save you later!" and meanwhile the $200-700 video cards either burn out in 2 years or you should "upgrade it" which is supposedly one of the big perks of PC, being able to do so, while not noting that every video card upgrade costs as much as a full console replacement anyway. My PS4 Pro (slightly used) cost less than each of my last 3 video cards on my last build. And I bought 3 in 2 years because the first two burned out with hardly any use.

Access to Steam sales really is the big thing for PC for me.....though.....it's flaky because the assumption that "Steam is always cheaper" really isn't true. You have to catch them at the right times I assume. Spot checking, for example, Hitman, was just on sale on PSN for $40, or $36 with + but was continuously full price at $58 on Steam. Granted Steam is the one driving PSN and XBL to great sales....but the good news is they might not all be as different. By the time you're done "upgrading" and "spending just a little more" and not always getting such amazing deals it makes up for the difference, I do wonder if PC isn't actually still the expensive route.

@NEStalgia All of your reasoning (and your objections) so far, really do bring me back to my original comment, or at least the part of it that says: "get an Xbox One X, you'll thank me later."

But all kidding aside, I've now seen pros and cons, things you like and dislike, but what are you REALLY searching for? Those points should be the dots that can be connected towards what it ultimately is that you would want to buy and what would be the best solution for you.

For me, PC gaming is just a side-dish, but then again: my PC definitely isn't up to the task to run Xbox One/PS4 titles, so I can't really compare them.

But I really DO appreciate all my consoles, and what with the Xbox One S being my latest addition to the collection, I really can say nothing else than being extremely satisfied with it. And not only graphics-wise, but also performance and game-wise, so that supposed "meager" collection of exclusives is somewhat over-exaggerated in my view.

And although I have the S, a good friend of mine has the X, and that's REALLY a considerable step above the S (AND the PS4 Pro), as witnessed in the videos I posted in that first comment. You don't have to browse back to look for them, just go to Digital Foundry's YouTube channel and check the comparison videos in their playlist...

And even though you don't have a 4K screen, games will still run and look better, even though you obviously won't get maximum yield, but that's only eye candy, and of course games are more than that.

So, in short: what are your buying reasons, or are you only theorizing and don't want to buy any new device at all? I mean, for all those third party games, you've got the Pro, and for a certain amount of Steam games, you can still use your PC. I'm willing to bet that it's considerably more modern than mine, anyway...

I'd say you first have to get your ultimate shortlist of do's and don't's on paper, and then go from there to find out where you want to go and what would be the best investment for that $500 - $600 that you'll be spending on it...

@Yorumi Very true....though so much for SteamLink that way.....which means I'll need a ShieldTV or such as well..... (I suppose also an argument for, if going console, owning both PS and XB....the competing store sales.)

@thanosrexxx Haha, I suppose it's a complicated reason set. Ultimately, Nintendo and PS exclusives are my bread and butter and really the only games I'll pre-order at full price. I have a hard time justifying most 3rd party games at full price knowing their values collapse so deeply and readily especially on PC. So it's about bargain hunting for slightly older games (which in 3rd party speak means 6 months old ), and, yes, possibly getting better visual performance than Pro offers (that mostly still goes to PC I presume.)

The 3 options still on the table are getting back into PC, getting the X1X, or just sticking with Pro and buying more games with all that saved money that may not add up to the cost difference anyway.

Pros of sticking with Pro:
Almost everything comes to pro anyway, and it's pretty good.
More spend for games less spend for hardware.
(Con: No new shiny toy (unless I make one from cardboard ), more limited access to discounts.)

Pros of adding X:
Better visuals for those AAAs
Access to second digital store, access to more sales, freebies if they are ever better than PSN. (and access to more clearance bins for physical as well.)
(Con: Another subscription.)

Pros of PC:
Better performance for potentially not much more cost than 1X
Access to multiple stores to bargain hunt much deeper discounts as a Whitman's sampler of more games.
The little part of me that misses being a PC gamer....I did that for a long long time It was a lifestyle. Though I was all keyboard/mouse back then and wouldn't be this time. I bailed when Steam became dominant. Didn't like digital, and still generally don't, but for bargain hunting I'm learning it can be fun.
(Cons: Maybe more hardware cost...frustration....basically every sentence plywood has written )
(Other cons: It was a lifestyle.....)

Overall with the discussion I grow increasingly skeptical (once again) of the "it's cheaper" argument. It still never seems it. When a whole console upgrade still costs the same as a GPU that cost difference made up on steam sales had better be huge.

Yeah, not sure how well that Haswell box would handle those games. I really have to dig that thing out of mothballs. it was a monster machine....7 years ago or so. I think at minimum it would need a new GPU though. The old one is really obsolete and doesn't support DX12. (which goes back to if you need a new $200-600 video card every few years it's no cheaper than console...which was your point )

Also, tagging @Ryu_niiyama someone else I forgot I've discussed PC with (who will invariably add mods to the discussion.....something I haven't really paid attention to since Quake2... )

@NEStalgia For example steam sales, usually they can go up to 60%, even some 80% for real old games on the right time- (My friend did say that Winter Sales are more likely for indies, and Summer Sales for AAA games). Like even NieR: Automata got 40% sales around autumn sale? Not sure about winter. And this doesn't count the daily deals that sometimes is surprising.

Tbh, the only place I didn't even try to always get physical is only PC, and it's because Steam is just so easily accessible.